2 The Ranting Gryphon

Discussion in 'Furry Conventions' started by amatus, Mar 15, 2017.

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Should 2 The Ranting Gryphon be at anthrocon?

Poll closed Mar 22, 2017.
  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. KimberVaile

    KimberVaile Edgy teenage apathy.

    Nothing is off the table, which can mean anything, can mean little Jimmy can bring a handgun and shoot up a school, Bob can take his Ferrari out for a spin, do 90 on the freeway and commit manslaughter. Now yes, those previous examples are against the law, but my point here is semantics. Sure you can say whatever the hell you want, doesn't mean it's right. I can say to little Jimmy that it's okay to beat and torture that dying deer towards a long painful death, and technically speaking I won't be legally accountable for anything. Does it make it right? Fuck no, it's fucking sick. So while yes, technically speaking anything is on the table, it doesn't make what is said right or justifiable. And yes, I'm going to compare my last example with encouraging suicide because they are on a similarly unethical levels. It doesn't matter what veil you cover it with, the message is disturbed. Yes, he's a shock jock, I get it, but his label really doesn't excuse what he did. Whether his intent is to entertain or not, it's still important to be aware of how far he's going, whether he personalty agrees with it or not. That is because words will have consequences, the speaker's perception will never be the same as the listener. Encouraging suicide, regardless of the veil is deplorable, I don't see any other way around that.

    If people find humor in that, well great, good for them. The real ironic thing is, for whatever reason he tries to make himself out to be the victim. That speaks volumes more than Antrhocon banning him. And again, I'm not endorsing him to be censored, that's not right either, but his reaction to it could use some work, to put it lightly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  2. WendigoNasty

    WendigoNasty The Booty Police

    I agree to a point, the world can be nasty and people need to prepare for that, humor and satire can give people an extremely effective coping mechanism. However, it is a two way street. One can't just be a dick and spout all sorts of purposefully offensive stuff and then cry when people go 'hey, thats too far, we dont want to see you preform.'

    Do I think 2 Gryphon has a right to his brand of humor, yes. But Anthrocon also has the right to hire who the want and dismiss performers if they think someone is not representing their values correctly. At the end of the day, AC has the final say and we should respect their decision.
     
  3. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru No "Awooo'ing" allowed

    I agree. It's Anthrocon's right to say who can and can't come to their con. If you are going around and actually looking for people to offend, you're just a moron, and will be accountable for your actions.

    However, there are no laws on being offensive.
    Yes, nothing is off the table when it comes to satire and humor. But, you have to the very least, consider your immediate area/situation. The joke may actually not be appropriate for the situation you are in.
    My sense of humor knows no bounds.

    As for 2 making himself out to be a victim: Is that what you're getting out of the videos? Well, by all means, mate. I, however, see it differently.

    And thus, I respectfully agree and disagree with the both of you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  4. Sergei Sóhomo

    Sergei Sóhomo Well-Known Member

    Oh shit you're back. I missed your wicked burns
     
  5. KimberVaile

    KimberVaile Edgy teenage apathy.

    Well that's what I mean by a case by case basis, personally I felt the suicide thing was out of line considering how general and barbed it was, I feel it's generally inappropriate to insinuate suicidal people kill themselves, I won't say it's impossible to tastefully and justifiably joke about such a subject, but I have pretty serious doubts it ever could, but am happy to be proven wrong. Anyways, I didn't see any hint of playfulness or general concern or sympathy when 2 did so, just a blatant, "Yeah, if you're thinking about it, just do it cause you're a dumb cunt."

    As for the other point, "a hateful minority of CryBullys" is the part I felt he lost his credibility. He can't come to terms with how he can complain about "bullying" and hatefulness when it can be argued he does the same to other people. Sure he's funny about it, I'm with you there, but he still does the same. He needs to deal with the consequences of what he does, but I don't think he's reacting to it quite the way he should really.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  6. KimberVaile

    KimberVaile Edgy teenage apathy.

    Now if he went and said, "Yeah I'm a asshole and I say controversial stuff a few salty easily offended cunts didn't like, hence why I'm no longer a part of Antrhrocon." I would have no issue, because yeah that phrasing is quite cunty, but you know, he's at least owning he's a dick or "shock jock" if you will, instead of victimizing himself with the "Ooh poor me, I'm being bullied!" shtick. When the shock jock starts asking for pity, well, to put it lightly, that's quite the dissonance, hypocritical pity pleas at that. The juxtaposition simply can't be hand waived here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  7. webkilla

    webkilla Furry, brony, anon - for lulz

    What has been done to 2 - while highly questionable - is still within the rights of the AC board

    However, as 2 pointed out: Then the AC staff has NOT been honest about why he was canned. At the very damned least they could be honest, instead of dance around the topic - which, in 2's second video - is shown to be a flat out lie.

    Be honest about why you don't want 2 at your con - or be considered a liar
     
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  8. DusterBluepaw

    DusterBluepaw [creative custom title]

    People keep bringing up the whole suicide thing, well if you watched his video where he did the buzzfeed privilege test he didnt click "have you never attempted suicide", so i think he has every right to say what he said.
    As someone who has tried it myself several times, i completely agree with what 2 said, if you are going to kill yourself over some moron talking shit to you, then well you clearly cant handle what life has in store, there are great times and there are bad times, and if you are willing to throw your life away over such benign matters, well then so be it.

    Ive been through some crazy shit, stuff you would think ive made up, ive been bullied (the actual definition, none of this "oh i got made fun of a few times their for i was bullied") for years at school, the only times i tried it involved deaths or being backstabbed and bashed up.

    I agree with his whole mentality of the anti-SJW special snowflake rubbish, and that is his message, with life, you toughen up or quit, and i agree, but unfortunately the plague of the SJWs is affecting everything including this fandom, clearly there are some SJWs on the board at AC, which is sad.
     
  9. KimberVaile

    KimberVaile Edgy teenage apathy.

    It's the, I can do it, you can do it fallacy. We're talking about mentally unhealthy people, so no, I don't think it's ok to further bring them down. Any other targets and I would have been just peachy with it. But really, the whole, "Well I didn't go through with it!" Set of logic is stupid, because people react differently to different situations, there's different context surrounding suicidal people, different age and maturity, ect. Painting every single suicidal person with a single stroke and saying, "well this should be your example and this is why it is ok for him to insult suicidal people" inherently lacks any appropriate perspective or consideration for variation. A lot of these cases, we're talking about mentally immature kids, and high schooler, people who are CLEARLY not mature yet, of course they are going to be more prone to doing stupid shit. To utterly dismiss their mental maturity and the conditions of their bullying, ( which could be verbal harassment practically everyday) is pretty thoughtless.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  10. DusterBluepaw

    DusterBluepaw [creative custom title]

    I guess you are right but ugh like i dont want to go on about some of the horrors ive been through as a kid, but boy did i have every excuse to do it, because of it, i am quite mentally unhealthy, but i just dealt with it, i dunno maybe im just jaded because im so use to it and dont value human life as much as i should depending on various things, also, there are plenty of adults who clearly arent mentally mature, and i know this may sound cruel, but well i am just tired of weak people, ive watched this whole SJW bullshit from the beginning and ive just had enough, i can be quite empathetic, but there is a certain point where you just say "fuck it".
    Im not a fan of Darwin, but i do agree with the whole survival of the fittest thing, like just look at say the middle east, after america terrorized the place, what do you see? groups of people like ISIS, now i dont condone them, but i see where they are coming from, they are fighting for what they believe in, they arent being weak, and that is the key, if there is a problem, you build a bridge, reinforce it and walk over it, i sure havent gone over mine yet, but im trying.

    As for your comment on bullying, please look up the definition, it has become so overused and used incorrectly, getting made fun of for a few weeks because of something stupid you did is not bullying, bullying is being harassed constantly, going on years, and i have been through that since i was 10 over stuff that is nightmare material.
     
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  11. Lcs

    Lcs Woof

    You know, I feel like a lot of people lack a degree of empathy and it's especially visible on the internet. I guess an explanation would be that it's easy to not care about people if you're behind a keyboard and never see the face of the person that you just insulted. Particularly since the offenders have little accountability as a result of anonymity.

    I get that you've been abused/bullied physically, which is probably the more intense and cruel type of bullying, but that doesn't mean that verbal abuse/bullying is non-existent or harmless. Whether the effects be anxiety issues, low self-esteem, anger issues, stress... (etc.), it certainly deals harm. So when someone has such problems, encouraging them to commit suicide is probably unjust. Calling them a special snowflake, as if they're just acting overly entitled, is probably inappropriate as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  12. KimberVaile

    KimberVaile Edgy teenage apathy.

    To be fair, those people (ISIS) are brainwashed, religion is shoved down their throat as a kid and they are told it is a "pretty dang noble thing" to kill yourself in the name of god. There's a lot of indoctrination going on there. Logic isn't going to magically show suicidal people the way, when you're dealing with people like that, it makes sense to at least try and emotionally support them. Because Jesus Christ dude, what is logic going to do for somebody who's being called an ugly cunt every day she goes to school and has virtually no friends? You can't logically reason with somebody like that, not very well at least. It's your prerogative if you live by that Social Darwinist crap, but you know let's go by that logic for a minute. Isn't there a strong possibility that if the suicidal person moves past their tendencies that they'll become the jaded, strong willed people you want to see more of? By protecting that person in their ultimate moment of weakness, doesn't that just reinforce the whole, what doesn't kill you makes you strong line of thinking? Sure, you're violating it by some margin by intervening, but by all accounts, they've been on the brink and back haven't they? I don't think it is beneath me to help those I find "weaker" than me, though, my definiton for what makes somebody weak is a fair bit different than yours.

    Having empathy for people you consider weaker than yourself, for whatever subjective reason that may be, in your Social Darwinist mindset, could be framed as an investment if you want to think of that way. You're investing in this person and presuming with your time and support, they'll become stronger, in your own subjective definition of strength that is. As for the definition of bullying, it's developed a few different connotations.

    According to webster it is "a blustering, browbeating person; especially : one who is habitually cruel, insulting, or threatening to others who are weaker, smaller, or in some way vulnerable"

    Sound pretty similar to how I am presenting it. Though I digress, we can argue the definition all day, but I'm sure we can agree the connotation can vary. Clearly you had a more severe form of bullying, I don't think anybody will deny that, sorry you had to deal with it, but I don't think it gives you the platform to negate the validity of other who are being bullied, whether it is as severe as yours or not, and there are quite a few cases that are as severe as yours going on still. Which is why 2's video about that suicide shit, was, in my eyes sociopathic. I realize what you been through is by all means an extreme form of bullying, I'm not denying that, but that should be your incentive to try and help with the problem, rather than take it upon yourself to drawn lines in the sand and separate the "weak" from the "strong".
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  13. DusterBluepaw

    DusterBluepaw [creative custom title]

    I am aware of the whole keyboard warrior thing, but like back in my trolling days, i was not only doing it before i even knew about 4chan, but i was doing it in real life, like back in high school i owned a teacher simply because i said "oh im sick of these kids making such a big deal crying about how their parents got divorced" and the teacher told me "well my daughter didn't take my divorce that well, you shouldn't talk like that" and i just responded with "yeah well if you havent seen your own mother on the ground in a pool of blood then you have nothing to complain about" and the room just went quiet and the teacher changed the subject.

    What ever happened to the old saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"? i copped a ton of verbal abuse, especially at the time my mother passed, those "ya mum" jokes got popular in australia, i was called a name because at the time i was quite short compared to the other kids, and yeah it messed with my head, one year i didn't have a day where i didn't cry, but that is life, some people get the shitty end of the stick.
    I dont condone suicide, i condone getting a backbone and just kicking away all the shit flung your way, i believe if i didn't go through the things i went through, i wouldn't be who i am today, special snowflakes are those people who either make up or self diagnose mental issues, i really recommend you watch andywarski on youtube, his interview with an ex feminist goes on about the whole special snowflake syndrome, and the ex feminist even mentioned a lot tend to be in fandoms funny enough, after seeing the shows 2 did at AC i thought the furry fandom was exempt from this, but recently ive seen it not to be the case.

    I guess all i have else to say is wisdom and thick skin is a perk you get from suffering.
     
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  14. DusterBluepaw

    DusterBluepaw [creative custom title]

    Ok well first the ISIS thing was just an example, what i mean is say your family is killed, what do you do, give up and kill yourself? or go out and seek revenge?
    Ok see im just going to give up, i have personality disorders and can flip in an instant from different moods, well when i had friends people would always come to me for advice, because i was just so open, i guess this whole weak vs strong thing is just me basically saying oh ive suffered more then you, so that means im stronger.. i dunno i guess it depends on the severity of whats being done or said, but then there are some people who are just a lost cause, you try and helpthem then they complain of the same shit
     
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  15. Lcs

    Lcs Woof

    That's really not something you should be bragging about - that's just fucked. From what I gather by reading that text, she was probably silent because you said something really insensitive and awkward, not because you "owned" her.

    You basically just proved that the phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is untrue. Since you know that getting words slung at you hurts badly when you're vulnerable, why would you call people who may be in a similar situation to you a special snowflake and then defend the people who are dishing out insults and who encourage vulnerable people to commit suicide?

    You say that you don't condone suicide, yet I can quite clearly see your initial post where you say that you agree with 2Gryphon.

    Someone in this thread already mentioned in this thread why such thinking is unfair and flawed.

    I have sympathy for people who self-diagnose themselves with mental issues. If they are self-diagnosing themself with depression or something similar, then chances are that they either do suffer from abuse in some way or they do have some sort of problem. As for your comment on those who fake having mental issues, I must say that I have serious doubts that there are many people who do this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  16. KimberVaile

    KimberVaile Edgy teenage apathy.

    Right, my point about ISIS is that they encourage the "noble Sacrifice" ideal it's ingrained in the culture they were brought up in , so of course the more bloodshed option seems appealing to them. Really the more bloodshed argument seem like as much as a poor choice as offing yourself. Ideally, you'd want to be proactive and spread a message about what's actually going on in your country and why this bloodshed is happening. I personalty feel information is more powerful than primal, animalistic violence.

    Sure, some people never change, some people are more inclined towards depression, anxiety and self loathing, people just tend to vary that way. If you don't want to invest the time trying to help them, don't do it, that's your choice to make, not mine. Is a little tough love necessary sometimes? Of course. Just as empathy is a requirement to healing in these cases. Extremes of anything will never help anybody. Saying suicidal people should kill themselves is extreme and sociopathic. Saying that that everything is gonna be ok and mommma will kiss all your boo boos and you don't have to go to school anymore is also extreme. Extreme coddling is bound to breed bad habits. So let us just avoid these extremes here. Let's stray away from the whole edgelord, only the strongest will survive mindset. Similarly, let's avoid the no mean words or criticism past this mark, extreme coddling. At the very least, we can all benefit from thoughtful criticism.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  17. DusterBluepaw

    DusterBluepaw [creative custom title]

    I dont know i guess my personalities just make me a hypocrite, i will think one thing then change my mind later.. i know i shouldn't really like mention what i said first but it comes back to the whole thing i have where i feel like because ive been and still am going through hard times that im better then others who crumble under minor things..

    self-diagnoses has so many problems, there is feeling depressed, then there is actually clinical depression, yes some may have problems, but then there are others who just do it for attention.

    ugh, i cant help the way i am, people say oh just be yourself and you will make friends, well i guess this is why i have one, coz im a fucking idiot lunatic.
     
  18. DusterBluepaw

    DusterBluepaw [creative custom title]

    I guess you are right, both extremes are bad and you just have to find a middle ground
     
  19. Jack Belinski

    Jack Belinski Hero of the Union

    Tha
    Thats the problem inherent with the internet, there is very little middle ground. Because the internet is a place of few consequences, people are encouraged to share their opinion as it is, without compromise. Therefor, you end up with opinions ranging from the extreme left to the extreme right, and very little middle ground.
     
  20. Troj

    Troj Well-Known Member

    Summary of my thoughts on the topic:

    1) By unceremoniously yanking the rug out from beneath 2 and his fans with no explanation, AC has basically created the perfect conditions for a multi-month dramastorm. Whatever their intentions might've been here--good, bad, smart, dumb, or indifferent--this was not the right, constructive, or smart way to approach this. There are other, better ways they could've tackled this sticky wicket.

    2) Yes, there are SJWs who don't understand things like subtext, context, irony, satire, or basic human interaction. The people accusing 2 of being a literal Nazi strike me was generally young, naive SJW-types who want to look and feel virtuous and who've never encountered true evil (and that includes actual Neo-Nazis). You can criticize someone without calling them a Nazi, and someone can be entirely worthy of criticism without being a literal Nazi. To a certain extent, people should also realize that ducks will squack, birds will tweet, and comedians who are known for being edgy or shocking will continue to work that angle.

    3) That said, 2 has said some things in the past which absolutely warrant some kind of critique or criticism, and it's disingenuous to say anyone who takes issue with something he's said must be a dumb SJW who either doesn't appreciate or isn't familiar with his material.

    The main issue I see is that sometimes, it's not clear where his jokes end and his real opinions begin, because the difference between his persona and his real self is likewise a bit ambiguous. If people are unclear on whether 2 is meant to be a social commentator like Lewis Black, Lenny Bruce, Jon Stewart, or a George Carlin, or more of a shock comic like Lisa Lampanelli or Andrew Dice Clay, or more of a character actor like Andy Kaufman or Larry the Cable Guy, they may get understandably upset when he appears to give his audience bad advice or makes ignorant statements that appear to come "from the heart."

    Especially in this current political climate, people are extremely sensitive to others using "just joking" as a kind of get-out-of-jail-free-card for saying genuinely mean-spirited and shitty stuff.

    In my view, 2's aforementioned quips and rants about suicide and trans people ultimately bombed not because they related to edgy or controversial topics, but because they were rooted in some pretty glaring and stupid misconceptions about the topics at hand, and because their ultimate purpose or intention was unclear.

    4) If you're not a mental health professional or someone who has in-depth personal experience with mental illness and/or various forms of human suffering, you should think twice before just spouting off about what mentally-ill or emotionally-distraught people "should" do. You should also remind yourself that you are not everyone, and that everyone isn't you.

    5) Similarly, everybody who hasn't earnestly researched gender and sexuality--and that includes the biology, the anthropology, the sociology, the psychology, the relevant legal issues, and other facets of the subject--and/or who has never had meaningful contact with a trans, gender dysphoric, or gender variant person needs to shut the hell up about what trans people are supposedly like, what their major malfunction is, or what they ought to think, feel, or do.

    6) I'm inclined to agree with others here that if he cares about this fandom--which I believe he genuinely does--2 should ideally keep his audience in mind when he tells his jokes. The majority of 2's fans are young whippersnappers, and we know that furries as a class often struggle with bullying and ostracism, social adjustment, depression and anxiety, and social skills and awareness, so it makes sense to not throw gas on preexisting fires if you can help it.

    This does not mean that 2 should neuter his act and make it the Family Circus Snuggle-Fun Safe Space Hour. But, there's a big difference between saying "fuck" or just being generally edgy or controversial, and sending your audience away with stupid, inaccurate, or potentially-harmful beliefs and attitudes, like "If online bullying upsets a person, they're a beta cuck who just needs to commit suicide," or "Trans people have a habit of just picking whatever bathroom they're in the mood to use today."
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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