2 The Ranting Gryphon

Discussion in 'Furry Conventions' started by amatus, Mar 15, 2017.

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Should 2 The Ranting Gryphon be at anthrocon?

Poll closed Mar 22, 2017.
  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. Lcs

    Lcs Well-Known Member

    Yes he did encourage suicide - by saying that vulnerable people should commit suicide, he was encouraging. By the way, I've already seen his Youtube video on the subject a while ago and I got the impression that he lacks empathy and an understanding of suicidal people.

    This is a nazifur:
    Nazi Furs - WikiFur, the furry encyclopedia

    They are furries that are interested in the WW2 era stuff, hence why I said Foxler may be a hobbyist. That in mind, I think you totally misunderstood what I wrote.

    Anyways, yes, Foxler is deceitful as can be seen by the many times that he has lied and pretended that he has no association to nazifurs. I mean, he made an enormously big deal out of something when he could have just explained fully that all the links between him and other nazifurs were harmless. Instead he chose to play ignorant and provoke drama.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
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  2. KimberVaile

    KimberVaile Edgy teenage apathy.

    Yet, I am not talking about just the video, I apologize for not making that clear, but these instances also includes tweets and youtube comments.

    From what he had to say about the video, it seems he made it very clear on were he stands. As for his actual video content. I had originally thought he had made a tweet in which he expanded this statement to all suicide victims, but since I can't find it I'll defer to you on that. I could be misremembering things, I freely admit I can be misinformed in that particular area, so I'll trust your judgment on whether he has or has not made a tweet along those lines, as you have more exposure to him than I do.

    Yes the video in particular was geared towards people being insulted via the internet, and my stance still stands, if your actively going encourage people who take their life through cyberbullying it's still deplorable. We're still talking about mentally immature kids, targeted harassment and subsequent suicides still happen via cyberbullying, the fact that its' the internet is often used to dismiss the argument entirely, which is rather disingenuous. Are we really expecting kids to be rational?

    I didn't say yours was less valid, only that there really is no definitive proof of intent, though I did imply that, so I apologize for that.

    In tandem with the context of the video specifically, a comedy video, everything hinges on presentation and execution, his field carries a unique weight, his comedy, being predicated on shock and social commentary demands careful consideration for his work, and if his execution and presentation is not up to par, people can misinterpret it. For something as serious as cyberbullying and suicides from that, it's a pretty important thing to be methodical about. Normally, I'd not be such a stickler for that, but these conditions, in my eyes, demands a level of accountability and consideration. So no, I don't expect 2 to try and forge his words with the consideration with everybody in the world, I never said that, and I agree it's unrealistic. Let me put it out there, I don't mind people finding offense in non pc humor, that doesn't bother me. Suicide video? Yeah that shit bothers me, he shouldn't have made the video to be honest.

    Were the roles reversed I wouldn't have been able to live with myself knowing I could have pushed somebody close to suicide. Though, I'm aware 2 isn't a bleeding heart, he's the prototypical Stern-eque shock Jock, maybe he just wouldn't have cared if somebody drew closer to suicide through or even if somebody ended up killing themselves. I don't know, and I will never claim to know, I don't know him personally. It's this whole concept of focusing on subjects that are not mentally healthy enough to take that stuff in stride. Were the subjects mentally healthy individuals, it'd be a different story.

    Yes you are right, I strongly believe in a case by case basis, which is why I object so strongly to 2's thinking. You really shouldn't lump people like that with such a critically sensitive issue. At the base of the issue I do believe people in that situation need some base amount of emotional support, sometimes somebody is geared more towards tough love, sometimes somebody is geared more towards 'coddling'. Those shoes don't all fit the same foot however. Hence my disgust with his video. So as to what camp pertains to my views? Case by case basis, I refuse to adhere to extremes.

    Disagree, 2's strategy is pretty awful, because again it lumps people into a hard locked this way is the right way mindset. Call it coddling or whatever you prefer, emotional support is far more helpful than somebody doubling down and offering more hurtful words. I understand good criticism can help, but to somebody below the age of 18, criticism and hurtful words are probably one and the same if you are being relentlessly bullied. So no, it is a destructive and fruitless train of thought to tell a 12 year old with shredded self esteem that, lol if you feel like killing yourself you fucking deserve it. Building empathy and offering emotional support is the first step in healing, it does not preclude other necessary steps for betterment. The base of healing through empathy is solidified by advice, the thing you suggest about ignoring trolls, that stuff needs to come after emotional healing. Both of these methods can coexist and in fact reinforce each other when used in tandem. This isn't a binary one or the other choice and should not be thought of as such.

    My big issue here, is the people who saw it and to the contrary, ended up feeling worse, which, let's not beat around the bush, there were more than a couple I am sure. If you enjoyed 2's video, I'm glad for you, but I don't think that makes his, this shoe must fit everybody's foot train of thought at all valid. If you want to argue I lack comprehension of his strategies that's your prerogative. I've never said that his video couldn't be of help to anybody, just that I think that in the grand scheme of things it had a more negative than positive effect. Though, that's admittedly a subjective view.
     
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  3. KimberVaile

    KimberVaile Edgy teenage apathy.

    I never implied 2 should ever be censored, and oppose that notion, just because I find disgust in his statements does not mean I want to enforce censorship.
     
  4. Perri_Rhoades

    Perri_Rhoades Member

    Again, your opinion. Not necessarily taking in the context of what he was saying or your own ability to determine the existance of empathy. Let's just put it accurately. He said something you didn't like, and you disapproved of it. We can go with that.

    Oh, I remember them. Harmless lot. Not Nazis at all. And if there's something on the page that says Foxler was a member, I can't find it. But even if he were into WW2 RP, that wouldn't support accusations of him being a white supremacist. Nor does it support the existance of white supremacist Furries. But I don't see why you would assume someone who knew nothing about WW2 would want to participate in WW2 RP. Though, at whatever point he was trying to find out what he was accused of being, he might of contacted them, but I have no evidence to that effect.

    I can find no evidence that Foxler is a WW2 enthusiast. His group name is a Fallout reference, and he does not wear a Nazi uniform, just a paw band that happens to be red. If he was a uniform fetishist there would certainly be more to his outfit than that.

    Could be. The general use of the term Nazi in the fandom recently has been exclusively related to accusations of white supremacy. If one is talking about WW2 Furs, it is best to make the distinction.

    If you have evidence of this association I would like to see it. I have been investigating for months and found nothing to support the allegation.

    What other Nazi Furs is he associated with? Details please.
     
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  5. Lcs

    Lcs Well-Known Member

    Sure, it's my opinion that encouraging suicide is bad.

    -

    For clarities sake, nazifurs aren't exclusively interested in RP. For example, they can also just be people interested in the history of Germany during WW2 or they can even be fetishists. So if he is just a nazifur, which is what I would guess him to be, then his obsession with nazi related things is probably harmless.

    Anyways, I find it hard to believe that you have never seen any evidence of associations between him and something more malicious. Though even more unbelievable is that you seem to genuinely think that he has no knowledge of WW2. These are some screenshots that evidence Foxler being something more than just a leader of a furry group with armbands who knows nothing of WW2 (I'll put them in a spoiler to conserve space):

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    There are more suspicious images, but that's probably enough.

    Other than those, he also wears that armband which is almost identical to the nazi germany flag and armbands except that the swastika is exchanged for a paw, though even the paw keeps the same colour.

    Also, I'd argue that the idea of people thinking he's a white supremacist is understandable considering how he seems to be baiting people into believing this. If anything, his posting history and the videos he watches do warrant suspicion and I hope you can at least agree on this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  6. Perri_Rhoades

    Perri_Rhoades Member

    Yeah, I've seen that before. Basically what I said. He's not babying people who talk about killing themselves over the most minor of BS. And when bugging the gryphon, one should expect his tact to erode with his patience, at which point he's like "Fine, go do it already." But again, the context is, "Go do it. I'm still not going to cry over someone that stupid." But since he knows they're only doing this to get attention, it's an effective strategy not to give it to them.

    I do actually cringe some times at his bluntness. But social media forces that. And really there are only two choices of what to do. Either beg the person not to kill themselves, which will encourage them to believe doing it will get the desired attention, or this tactic, which demonstrates no attention will be forthcoming, as well as possibly making them mad enough at him to motivate them to prove he's wrong about being worthless, and to do that they have to live.

    Personally, I wouldn't have the nerve to go this route. But then, people know and respect 2 more than me. His opinions matter to his fans. They wouldn't want to be seen worthless in his eyes. So maybe it will work for him. So far I haven't heard of any 2 fans committing suicide.

    No, we don't expect kids to be rational. But again, this is not encouragement. It's extreme discouragement in a way kids can relate to. It's the same way a cartoon superhero might come on as say "Drugs are for dopes," this video is "2 Gryphon says killing yourself over trolls is stupid." You'd be amazed how people look up to 2. If 2 says suicide is so stupid it makes him want to rant, it's something they don't want to be into.

    And what alternatives are available to approach this problem. Tell kids to buy guns to kill the trolls with? Make it a pity party for the dead girl that all the other kids would want? Nah, "You're favorite net hero with think you were a worthless waste of space if you kill yourself" seems the best option for reaching kids.

    For the video itself intent is pretty obvious. "This is dumb. This accomplishes nothing. No one will give a hang." The comments are harder to say, but I expect they continue the motivation of the video, which is to help kids toughen up.

     
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  7. Perri_Rhoades

    Perri_Rhoades Member

    Ah, my apologies. I misread you.

    Yes, if 2 creates something you have a problem with, you can always leave him a comment and let him know. But what happened to him over this video was far worse than censorship.
     
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  8. quoting_mungo

    quoting_mungo Administrator Staff Member

    Okay, some posts here are starting to stray too far into bashing individuals - while 2 is probably among the closest things furry fandom has to public figures, please try to keep your discussions of his and others' actions respectful. You can disagree with what someone has said or done without attacking them as persons.
     
  9. KimberVaile

    KimberVaile Edgy teenage apathy.

    Look, you can paint it anyway you want, it doesn't make his stance on it any less amicable, in my opinion. Considering his audience, and the social presence he has, it behooves him to carefully consider and account for what impact his words will have. It's important that somebody like 2, who has so many people look up to him that give a little more consideration to his word than a normal person. As you say, people look up to him, so it was unreasonably malicious to outright state something like that. The circumstances do not warrant it. Again it's really important with a subject like this, how the audience or viewer perceives it. The context for all intents and purposes can be read in a number of ways given the content. Pro Social darwinism/man the fuck up and shrug it off people!/people are getting dumber by the day. These are all valid inferences of what the context is considering all the content. No one interpretation of the context is valid, just as when you read a piece of literature, there is more than one way to see the theme based on the facts.

    Extreme discouragement. And this can't be paired with emotional support because? As I stated, going extreme is never the answer. You know what a kid's going to think? Wow, I guess I really am a waste of life, I fee like shit now. If however, you provide the pretext pf emotional support beforehand, the message is strengthened. Instead of being perceived as hostility, it's perceived as, this guy genuinely wants to help me. That pretext establishes character credibility and genuine concern. That seems like a way better alternative, not terribly hard one to achieve either, much better than, hey this guy you look up to thinks your a dumb twat.

    As for fans committing suicide, that's territory that is hard to verify if any impact was made on those who watched the video. Though, I'd imagine those hurt by it where disinclined to say anything. Considering these people were likely suicidal, they likely feared being hurt further by commenting, hence, unsurprisingly, they are presumably silent.

    As for the videos intent, I don't agree, it seemed geared more towards Social Darwinism, that seems obvious to me. This is a lot like how people seems to bicker and debate at the obvious themes in John Updike's A&P. Some say it's individualism vs collectivism, others say it's a criticism of capitalism. With that said, I still believe it's intent was geared more towards a advocation of social Darwinism in regards to these types of people he speaks of. His overarching message seemed to be less geared towards advice and more towards social commentary. Though one can argue I am reading far too into it.

    Also can you truly, definitively say without 2's words, you would have committed suicide? I would think you'd at least hesitate to give an answer. Please don't read this as me marginalizing the effect he had on you. It is not, I am merely saying, you may be overstating his intervention. I know this reply will probably get me some flack, but I truly believe his intervention may be overstated. I don't doubt it helped, but perhaps saved may be too strong a term, yes? To make another inference here I'd go out on a limb and presume you were at least 16 at the time you watched yes? Mature enough to learn from his criticism?

    As for how he is personally, I would not be opposed to speaking to him to learn of his intent, no, however, I also feel such a personal clarification would be a misuse of his time. I tend to try and respect the time of public figures as I am aware they have more hectic schedules, inspite of my intense disagreements with him. If for whatever reason he's lurking these forums and wishes to clarify things, by all means, I will not oppose that whether that be through Skype or PM or forum post, however for the time being I'm going to presume he doesn't want to bother and presumably is unaware of what is going on in the FAF. That's really the thing, if he's not aware of the FAF forums, that seems kind of rude to suddenly demand an explanation from a busy person. I would not feel that'd be appropriate social etiquette personally.
    I would like to make it clear that I do not hate him or anything of the like. He's still a human being at the end of the day even if some of the things he said were, in my opinion, incredibly shitty.

    Case by Case basis comment. - Just simply disagree, I'd hesitate to say it saved anybody, I won't hesitate to say it hurt people however. If your going to try and make a video with the intent on helping people, the establishment of the intent to help with some sort of emotional support would be important. 2's a creative guy, I'm sure he can work that in without it hurting his video. It'd be a hell of a lot better than this double edged swords that imo, is harming more than helping.

    As for the adult artist thing, please let's not go there. Alright? When I was a kid, I didn't give a rat's ass what was mature on YouTube or not, same went for movies and video games. This argument isn't being honest, you know kids do that. I'm not saying everything on YouTube needs to be tailored to include kids, but it's just important to consider for something as grave as suicide. I mean YouTube doesn't really have that many restrictions to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  10. Perri_Rhoades

    Perri_Rhoades Member

    I've seen all these before, except for the snitch story, which I don't know to trust since I don't know who wrote it or what their motivations were. I've had my own share of backstabbing former friends lie their tails off about me. The other stuff I have more detailed context on. They support his story of a period where he was interested in learning about Nazis after people started calling him one. Something he's expressed regret for.

    The manchild statement I'd agree with from my observations, but the "He's secretly very intelligent" thing I'd find a hard sell. One statement tends to contradict the other. That he was into trolling is supported. "God Complex?" I suppose could mean any number of things, particularly from someone he's had a falling out with.

    The screen cap of the fursuit comments is incomplete. And the pose is not a complete Nazi salute as he's not standing at attention. If he was trying for a Nazi salute this would indicate he's never even seen a WW2 movie. On the other had, he could just be striking a waving to somebody pose.

    Anyway, as always happens when somebody says they've got some specific dirt on him that I've been looking for confirmation of, I get these same items, and the requested confirmation is not there. I didn't see any evidence of him associating with other Nazi Furs.
     
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  11. Lcs

    Lcs Well-Known Member

    My words were:

    "So if he is just a nazifur, which is what I would guess him to be, then his obsession with nazi related things is probably harmless."

    My point by bringing up those images was that there's a lot of malicious stuff out there by him which is left unexplained. Anyways, surely we can at least conclude that his very suspicious content, which seems likely to be just baiting, warrants drama. He should have explained himself, but instead he began doing the exact opposite of what he should have done by playing ignorant (he said he didn't know much about WW2 and that the nazi salute was an accident, which seems far too covenient to be true and seems unlikely given his posting history).

    By the way, I was looking back at what I wrote previously and I wanted to clarify that I don't necessarily think he is a nazifur or that he is some sort of white supremacist (in fact, I am almost certain that he is not a white supremacist type). I'm also not of the opinion that we should be labelling others actual nazis for petty things like this since it makes no sense to do so when considering what a nazi actually is - so please don't misinterpret this as what I'm saying. I'm just saying that being a white supremacist or a hobbyist nazifur are possible explanations for why he acts like he does and that it's understandable that people think this given Foxlers actions. Though anyways, I think being a nazifur is much more nice than what I think the main reason for what I would suspect is the actual reason for this nonsense - him being a manipulative person.

    -

    If you want to continue talking with me about this, lets go into PMs. I think we've gone horribly off topic by now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  12. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru I stubbed my log on a car!

    People are getting so obsessed with Nazis/fascists they see them everywhere. Be obsessed with the "enemy" and you become the enemy you so loathe. Some people wanna see Nazis/fascists/what have you everywhere, and try and push the narrative that other people are Nazis, fascists, white nationalists, etc, even if it's a load of fucking bullshit. It's quite pathetic. This shit's not limited to the fandom. If they met an actual Nazi and tried agitating them, they wouldn't last 2 fucking minutes in a fight.

    New 2 video.
     
  13. Simo

    Simo Skunk

    Given how he is bald and all, he'd look really funny with some of those furry ears, that attach via one of those kinda clamp on bands.

    I really think he needs to look into this, his whole act has gotten really stale. He can thank me later.
     
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  14. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru I stubbed my log on a car!

    I can imagine 2 going about with a nekomimi and a tail, going about, in a grumpy way: "Nyyaaaa".

    Have you seen my sides? They just left.
     
  15. ChromaticRabbit

    ChromaticRabbit lagomorphic

    I believe that now more than ever it is important for fandom conventions, especially furry conventions, to set a tone of inclusiveness in their official programming, in part to offset this brave new climate of national social and political cultural malaise. Whatever word you may want to apply to 2's rant against at-risk individuals presently suffering an emotional crisis, be it hatred or intolerance, tasteless or cruel, or even resonant with what you feel inside, I hope that we can all agree that wishing suicidal individuals to be dead as a class seems to cross over into the deep end and isn't really good entertainment.

    Generally speaking, weren't shrill angry spittle-spraying rants from skinheads always kind of spiritually low-rent with poor aesthetics? It's much more difficult to build something than to tear it down or subdivide it. I wonder what a furry convention full of people who sympathize with 2's lowest moments would be like. In a superimposed state of self-loathing and denial, I should expect.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
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  16. noveltybest

    noveltybest Member

    I want 2 gryphon he might've joked about suicide but joke were made to make serious matters into something entertaining it's either everything is bad or nothing is bad so in the words of freedom of speech.





    fuck your feelings bro.
     
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  17. lupi900

    lupi900 Active Member

    That's pretty much what Dark Humor is. The ones crying about 2 are the same ultra touchy furs that go on how evil 4chan, haters are for silly hyperbolic reasons.

    I know a streamer who had a clown who would cry anytime he got roasted but was fully okay doing it to others.
     
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  18. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru I stubbed my log on a car!

    They can dish it out, but sure as hell can't take it, when they are treated by the very own standards they treat others with. It's fun to watch.Very fun to watch.
     
  19. lupi900

    lupi900 Active Member

    What's more annoying that streamer has a hard time getting collab's. Because most of them are too dumb to get that everything is them just joking.
     

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