VIVISECTION

[CombatRaccoon]

...or more literally, "The cutting of the living".

also known as Animal Experimentation for those of you who don't know.



WARNING:

VERY VERY LONG RANT BELOW.



the money issue:

Personally I find it ridiculous... its also amusing how advocates for vivisection try to make pETA and ALF look like terrorists and cons who "stage pictures" of animals in torturous situations.

This is bullshit, I mean, get real people. Those who advocate vivsection are primarily rich motherfuckers who run billion dollar industries in cosmetics, pharmeceuticals and not to mention the "my university is better than your university" deal.

OF COURSE these people will do everything they can to keep vivisection alive! Without it, companies that run these experiments would be completely useless, stocks would plummet, and a lot of rich bastards would be out of luck.

not to mention the rather huge monkey-trade (predominant in cambodia), where many of the deals are done "under the table" in illegal trades where the so-called breeders poach wild animals and sell them with forged certificates to testing companies.

ALSO theres the wide range of domestic lab-animal breeders within the world, even in the US. Where class-B (class-B dealers of animals are certified to obtain animals through "random" means; class-A dealers are certified lab-animal breeders) dealers often take dogs and other animals from shelters and into labs--usually without the knowledge of the shelter operator.

and then there is the fact that by losing animal testing the economy would hit a MAJOR change as all facilities flushed out old animals and equipment and cashed in for new alternative experimentation supplies.

------------------------

the truth:


But what really kills me is that most people who support vivisection think that it helps people.
the truth is that many people die from medicines that were tested safe on animals...
even scientists admit that around half of the drugs tested on animals affect humans differently.
So why do we continue when there ARE MANY, MANY alternatives to testing, like artificial skin graphs, and computer simulations?

MONEY! this is a MONEY issue.
Capitalism is a dirty business, my furry friends.


The truth is that vivisection, although not ALL of it may be as cruel as the videos that PETA releases, is a money-driven industry that benefits rich CEOs and the capitalist scumbags of the world, while sucessfully fooling the public and devouring their tax dollars.

Not only their tax dollars are being spent, though...

ever drop a dime into one of those march of dimes or children's hospital charities?

guess where the money goes.


ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS!

And more than often are the experiments completely irrevalent to "little joey with type 2 diabetes"



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common pro-vivisection arguments:


1. IT HELPS SAVE PEOPLE'S LIVES!!!

answer: It has, yes, but we have come to the point where we have safe and reliable alternatives to using live animals. There is no other reason to continue other than to feed the corporate machine that is vivisection more money.


2. IF IT WASN'T FOR VIVISECTION, WE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD SO MANY IMPORTANT SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES!

answer: this is TRUE. However, like I said above--it is no longer nessicary for biomedical or experimental research due to artificial alternatives.


3. THE ANIMALS ARE TREATED NICELY, AND THERE IS NO REASON TO BE UPSET!

answer: bullshit.
Even though not all lab-animals are festering away in an isolation tube, or laying in a pile of dung (which I'm sure many are), they are still bred and raised for this purpose, and the majority of them have never seen the sky or felt grass under their feet.

In the code of conduct for biomedical researchers, they are told to "pay no unessicary attention to animals, and interact with them only in a clinical fashion".
This is said to be so that the experiments are messed up by one of the scientists altering the mental state of the subject.

Also, there have multiple accounts of vivisectors laughing at or scrutinizing their subjects.

All in all, animals are not given love or affection, and are kept in small industrial cages where they live out their life in slow dismay.


4. ANIMALS CAN'T FEEL PAIN BECAUSE THEY LACK CONSCIOUSNESS!!

Honestly, I think all you furries would know enough to dissagree with this off the bat.

Its sort of ironic that because of animal experiments scientists have found that animals DO have consciousness of themselves, and therefore CAN feel pain.


5. IT DOESN'T AFFECT ME SO I DON'T CARE

actually, it does.

your tax dollars, at least here in lovely america, are funding this shit.

shouldn't you at least KNOW where your bucks are headed?

------------

WELL,
there you have it.
What's YOUR OPINION on vivisection?

[Aryeonos]

You bore me, go listen to vivisect! K not rely but I haven't the attention span for this so I'll just say I'm ambivelent and read my book.

You might want to look into your facts better and organize them, its not that I dont know what your talking about, but this goes beyond capitalism (We should be socialists) *Ahem* its sick we know, and there are different testing methods we know, but what people dont realize is that there are so many homeopathic natural, organic, stuff. For instance, me mum works for the body shop a fair trade non animal experimentation company. Cosmetic companies just dont want to give in to human rights issues around the world and cough up a human amount of dough to support people who do things without testing who work hard and make things completly organicly. It's not like its cheaper to use mostly organic products, its just more ethical and enviromnetaly friendly.

stuff redundacy, things.

[Rilvor]

Hoo boy I can SMELL the shitstorm coming on this one.

This should be an interesting thread, I wonder what most furries will say on this.

[Shrap]

To be honest, I'm real apathetic. I don't care, really, I don't. I don't know if the Canadian government uses tax payer's money on it or not. If they do, I guess they do. One animal cuts another open to experiment. Just more natural human behavior.

[Aryeonos]

If mutilation/ovisceration is considered natural human behavior.

[Shrap]

If mutilation/ovisceration is considered natural human behavior.

We're tool makers. We have these neat manipulators for a reason. This is just finding a use for said tools we create.

I never said human nature is a good thing, did I? Afterall, good and bad are just opinion. I just stated this is natural human stuff. We are curious so we use our tools to cut shit open and look at it in a different way to find things out. It'll happen whether we like it or not. It's what we do as a species.

Might be a bit of an apathetic way of looking at it, but it's truth.

[Takun]

Things die all the time. At least some of these are being put to use.

[capthavoc123]

Vivisection is a legitimate and necessary scientific practice. It gives us a lot of insight into how animal systems work. I guarantee you that vets today would not be as good as they are if we didn't have vivisection.

Loving animals is fine and dandy, but we shouldn't let it get in the way of scientific progress.

Also, a point:

Even though not all lab-animals are festering away in an isolation tube, or laying in a pile of dung (which I'm sure many are), they are still bred and raised for this purpose, and the majority of them have never seen the sky or felt grass under their feet.

If they've never known it, what are they missing?

[Shrap]

Vivisection is a legitimate and necessary scientific practice. It gives us a lot of insight into how animal systems work. I guarantee you that vets today would not be as good as they are if we didn't have vivisection.

Loving animals is fine and dandy, but we shouldn't let it get in the way of scientific progress.

A few animals sacrificed could save an entire species, or keep your beloved cat living a long and healthy life.

I agree with this fine fellow above. He is smart. Listen to him.

[TG.]

Science makes no comment on morals.

[Shrap]

Morals are not solid. They differ for everyone. Vivisection is fine to me.

[Sylvine]

Out of curiosity.... would You extend those statements to human vivisection, though?

~Sylv

[TG.]

Morals are not solid. They differ for everyone. Vivisection is fine to me.

My post wasn't in reply to anything, if you took it like that. And yes, I agree with your post.

[CombatRaccoon]

If they've never known it, what are they missing?

I don't know...

why don't you go outside and see for yourself what they are missing? I'm sure we all know pretty darn well what they are missing.


and as for this:

"Things die all the time. At least some of these are being put to use. "


This is another misconception about vivisection. It appears that most of you didn't read my post before posting.

If you did, and you still said that, then you have very poor critical reading skills.



This is sort of upsetting but I beleive my suspicions were accurate.
I had a feeling that most furries either didn't care or were going to be pro-vivisection and I'm right so far.


oh and also, this is beyond morals.

It's about the fact that we, as a society (in america, in europe, in canada, in the WORLD) are allowing this sort of shit [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NZo60v-Neg graphic content... be "advised"] to go on and just give it the cold shoulder.


I'm tired of living in a society where people just walk on with their lives and don't help out one another.
A place where we all drive in separate cars with the radios blasting so we drown out the noise from other car's radios.
I'm sick of saying hello to someone I pass by and watching them only nod or give me an odd look.



You say it's human nature, and I say it's animal nature.

We are human beings. This is 2008.
We need to step out of our computer chairs and realize what is going on in the world...
and NOT ONLY THAT,

WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!


OH oh... and one more...
in response to slyvine:
Actually, just coming from me, with the sort of twisted morals I have, no. I advocate the use of prisoners in experiments. Now I'm not talking about your ol' uncle jim to went to jail for dumb shit like hustlin' pot. I mean the death row people. The lifers.
We waste so much tax money on each of those people.
Why are we wasting them if they are going to be killed anyway? Use them for NESSICARY research. Not REVLON tests, or "I WONDER WHAT SORT OF REACTION I WILL GET FROM CUTTING OFF HIS ARM" sort of experiments.
I mean reseach into AIDS, cancer and all that crap.

yea, you can use that against me, but I don't care.
I'm for animal rights and yet I'm ok with human vivisection.
That's me and those are my veiws.




OK one MORE thing:

"A few animals sacrificed could save an entire species"

we are not talking about a "few" animals. You are misinformed.

"According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), the total number of animals used in that country in 2005 was almost 1.2 million"
-- http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_wel...report2005.pdf

check the list, kid.

also, for 2006 (there hasn't been a 2007 publication yet)

66,314 dogs used
21,637 cats used
62,315 primates used (AND in the US it is still legal to experiment on the greater apes. Chimpanzess are actually very common in brain and behavioral experiments because they are so close to our genetic make up)
239,720 rabbits used

a total of 1,012,713 animals used in scientific research in 2006, in america alone.



so no, we are not talking about a "few" animals here.
the numbers are in the millions.

[TG.]

How did you get from morals to people ignoring you on the street? How does this even relate to your point? How can you even say that we can't use animals for vivisection but humans are ok? Humans are animals. It violates human rights which come before animal rights. You can't have some sort of double standard where the family dog has more rights than Mr. Death Row.

[Takun]

I don't know...

why don't you go outside and see for yourself what they are missing? I'm sure we all know pretty darn well what they are missing.


and as for this:

"Things die all the time. At least some of these are being put to use. "


This is another misconception about vivisection. It appears that most of you didn't read my post before posting.

If you did, and you still said that, then you have very poor critical reading skills.



This is sort of upsetting but I beleive my suspicions were accurate.
I had a feeling that most furries either didn't care or were going to be pro-vivisection and I'm right so far.


oh and also, this is beyond morals.

It's about the fact that we, as a society (in america, in europe, in canada, in the WORLD) are allowing this sort of shit [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NZo60v-Neg graphic content... be "advised"] to go on and just give it the cold shoulder.


I'm tired of living in a society where people just walk on with their lives and don't help out one another.
A place where we all drive in separate cars with the radios blasting so we drown out the noise from other car's radios.
I'm sick of saying hello to someone I pass by and watching them only nod or give me an odd look.



You say it's human nature, and I say it's animal nature.

We are human beings. This is 2008.
We need to step out of our computer chairs and realize what is going on in the world...
and NOT ONLY THAT,

WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!


OH oh... and one more...
in response to slyvine:
Actually, just coming from me, with the sort of twisted morals I have, no. I advocate the use of prisoners in experiments. Now I'm not talking about your ol' uncle jim to went to jail for dumb shit like hustlin' pot. I mean the death row people. The lifers.
We waste so much tax money on each of those people.
Why are we wasting them if they are going to be killed anyway? Use them for NESSICARY research. Not REVLON tests, or "I WONDER WHAT SORT OF REACTION I WILL GET FROM CUTTING OFF HIS ARM" sort of experiments.
I mean reseach into AIDS, cancer and all that crap.

yea, you can use that against me, but I don't care.
I'm for animal rights and yet I'm ok with human vivisection.
That's me and those are my veiws.

I read your post. It's completely one sided against it. I'm all for it.

It's like what Guillermo Habacuc Vargas did with the starving dog.
"Oh these animals are being tested on. Everyone stop with your lives and care." Animals die all the time. Only when it is brought to your attention do you feign giving a damn.

You are a hypocrite.

Just so everyone knows Guillermo let the dog go back onto the streets after the exhibit. Yeah it probably died on the streets as do many.

Everything's life is meaningless. We have no higher calling. We exist to exist and so do animals.



Oh and for supper I had steak. The bovine were raised to be slaughtered. QUICK EVERYONE STOP EATING STEAK. YOU ARE VIOLATING THE BOVINE'S RIGHTS.

[CombatRaccoon]

How did you get from morals to people ignoring you on the street? How does this even relate to your point? How can you even say that we can't use animals for vivisection but humans are ok? Humans are animals. It violates human rights which come before animal rights. You can't have some sort of double standard where the family dog has more rights than Mr. Death Row.

Obviously you fail to understand what kind of bullshit experiments thse animals are subjected to.

Do you even KNOW what they use them for?

They kill animals to make sure that if sally down the lane eats her mascara she doesn't die.

And why? not to protect humans. To protect money. It's so the company doesn't get sued.



and do you fail to see what kind of world we live in today?

we're a blank generation corrupted by endless advertisements, bullshitters who lie to us daily, years of bleak conditioning in the hopes that one day we will live our lives working in jobs to keep the economy going, and assholes like you who find no problem with the world and feel that you ought to stop those who are trying to stop the shit the government is giving us.


I can't beleive you can't see the how honestly fucked up we are in this world.

But maybe you don't live in america, or any civilization for that matter.
I'm guessing you're a guy with a computer and a battery of some sort off on a peaceful island, who has not a care in the world for anyone but yourself.

-----------

and:

"Everything's life is meaningless. We have no higher calling. We exist to exist and so do animals."

if that is so, then why do we have rules to follow? Why can't I just run into the street butt-naked and start shooting a pistol into the air and scream bloody mary?

If life is meaningless then why not just do yourself in now?


Well maybe life is pointless, and personally I don't beleive in god, and I may very well be a hypocrite, but at least I know that life is worth living. These animals deserve to live.



and you say that I am only saying these things because they have been "brought to my attention"

well this isn't about animals dying, you naive little thing. This is about animals never really living.


there is a difference between an animal being raised in an isolation container it's entire life, for the sake of some half-assed study on depression (google "pit of despair experiment" it was an actual "study") and an animal being killed in the wild by another, bigger, hungrier animal.

[Takun]

Remember when the human race was good?


The human race was never good. >:C

[CombatRaccoon]

Remember when the human race was good?


The human race was never good. >:C

I'm so sick of this idea that you have that LIFE IS POINTLESS! HUMANS ARE EVIL! EVERYTHING IS MEANINGLESS AND WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!


look life is what you decide to do with it.

You can sit on your ass and be an emo bitch or you can go outside and stop whining that life sucks, because it doesn't.

[Takun]

if that is so, then why do we have rules to follow? Why can't I just run into the street butt-naked and start shooting a pistol into the air and scream bloody mary?

If life is meaningless then why not just do yourself in now?


Well maybe life is pointless, and personally I don't beleive in god, and I may very well be a hypocrite, but at least I know that life is worth living. These animals deserve to live.

Rules are set by society. That big group of people that think they know best. Life is meaningless. If I died right now, the world would go on. Doesn't mean I'll kill myself. Pointless life>Nothing at all. Hell the Earth could blow up and everyone could die. The rest of the universe would exist.

I'm tired of living in a society where people just walk on with their lives and don't help out one another.
A place where we all drive in separate cars with the radios blasting so we drown out the noise from other car's radios.
I'm sick of saying hello to someone I pass by and watching them only nod or give me an odd look.

Who is being a "emo bitch?" Oh and a nod is an acknowledgment that they heard you say hi. Get off your high horse now please.

Oh and it's called nihilism, not emo.

[Rilvor]

In this thread: Opinions

Protip: Lots of swearing and insult tossing does not make your argument look more valid.

[capthavoc123]

CombatRaccoon, you have twisted morals. It's absolutely idiotic to put the value of an animal life above that of a human life. Your viewpoints, while they may make sense to you, are absolutely wrong no matter which way you slice it (pun quite intended, thank you very much).

I cannot condone your assertion that it's okay to conduct experiments on humans (even death row inmates) but that Stuart Little is off-limits. Apart from that it's completely against human rights laws that every single civilized nation has agreed upon, it's hypocritical. If you're going to place such a high value on the life of a lab animal, it makes absolutely no sense not to hold a human life to that same value.

Come back later and try again when you can manage not to sound like a German leader from the 1930's - 1940's (if I don't say his name, then it's not a Godwin violation).

[Takun]

Also, are you going to go make it illegal to eat dog, cat, and monkey in countries that do?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_meat
http://www.gourmandizer.com/ezine/cannedMonkey/

[TG.]

Obviously you fail to understand what kind of bullshit experiments thse animals are subjected to.

Do you even KNOW what they use them for?
Using humans instead is not valid.

They kill animals to make sure that if sally down the lane eats her mascara she doesn't die.

Yes, and? Would you want your mascara or your aftershave to be deadly?

And why? not to protect humans. To protect money. It's so the company doesn't get sued.

I'm sorry, I guess self-preservation isn't enough for you.

and do you fail to see what kind of world we live in today?

No, I'm perfectly competent.

we're a blank generation corrupted by endless advertisements, I don't watch TV or read magazines, this is invalid. bullshitters who lie to us daily, years of bleak conditioning in the hopes that one day we will live our lives working in jobs to keep the economy going, and assholes like you who find no problem with the world and feel that you ought to stop those who are trying to stop the shit the government is giving us.

Trite paragraph, has nothing to do with the topic at hand which is "animal testing", if you failed to read what you, yourself, said.

I can't beleive you can't see the how honestly fucked up we are in this world.



But maybe you don't live in america, or any civilization for that matter.
I'm guessing you're a guy with a computer and a battery of some sort off on a peaceful island, who has not a care in the world for anyone but yourself.

Being self-centered has no bearing on this conversation. I live in America. Killing animals for self-preservation is not uncivilised. Sorry if you feel as if you are a lower being than a non-sentient animal.

-----------

and:

"Everything's life is meaningless. We have no higher calling. We exist to exist and so do animals."

if that is so, then why do we have rules to follow? Human constructWhy can't I just run into the street butt-naked and start shooting a pistol into the air and scream bloody mary? See above

If life is meaningless then why not just do yourself in now?
Because the universe does not have an inherent meaning and it is up to us to create meaning in our lives.

Well maybe life is pointless, and personally I don't beleive in god, and I may very well be a hypocrite, but at least I know that life is worth living. These animals deserve to live. So you admit to being a hypocrite, yet you still try and press your point? What?



and you say that I am only saying these things because they have been "brought to my attention"

well this isn't about animals dying, you naive little thing. This is about animals never really living. (1) science makes no comment on morals.


there is a difference between an animal being raised in an isolation container it's entire life, for the sake of some half-assed study on depression (2) Science makes no comment on morals.(google "pit of despair experiment" it was an actual "study") and an animal being killed in the wild by another, bigger, hungrier animal. This happens all the time in the wild. Where have you been?

[Shrap]

Out of curiosity.... would You extend those statements to human vivisection, though?

~Sylv

Yes I would. Imagine the benefits! But really, Comparing life of the human animal to any other animal out there will only end in people caring about humans more. Afterall, we, as a species with brains as powerful as our own, will obviously find ourselves to be superior. Built in narcism is a wonderful thing, or is it instinct?