FA Funding

[Dragoneer]

Alright, so... if FA is going to be around for a while, we do need to discuss funding and what we want to do to keep the site alive and well. Server speed and equipment is expensive, and as such I think it's best to cover the bases early to prevent a repeat of past issues. Donations are wonderful, but a site can not rely on donations alone if it wishes to succeed.

BANNERS AND TEXT ADS:
To put it bluntly: banners suck. Nobody likes them, and rarely do they improve a site. More often than not, they make the site look ugly and break up the UI. While banners can be implemented, they are annoying and easily blockable, which is both a pro and a con.

Less invasive than banners are the text ads. While they're still not pretty, they are less marring on the whole. Text ads are a more likely introduction than banner ads, but are still something that we would like to avoid at all costs.

We'd rather try to avoid banners and text ads.

ACCOUNT UPGRADES:
Account upgrades are a more natural choice for pulling in revenue. Allowing people to purchase add-ons or "booster packs" to make give them custom functionality or additional features is an incentive-based way for to help increase income to pay for servers, and upgrade servers down the road when the time comes.

I think of this as more of the Livejournal approach. Ensure every user gets full functionality, but allow interested users to invest in advanced features which cater to their needs.

FA STORE:
T-shirts, comics and magazines. Selling items through an FA store for a fair price also works. But my belief is quality. None of that Cafepress crap -- it's ugly, poorly produced and frankly worth nobody's money. FA would be willing to fund comics and portfolios to sell through its stores, providing an excellent cut to the artists to cover production costs.

I'd also like to periodically work with artists to produce shirts and other apparel items that which could be sold via the online FA store. Strong designs, excellent production runs -- none of the craptasticular iron-on designs employed by other sites.

PRINTS:
In the future, I think FA will be able to offer the integrated selling of prints -- either via single print or bulk. I'm currently looking into third party vendors who would be willing to assist us in this endeavor while ensuring A) artist security and B) safe, fast e-commerce shopping.[/b]

YOUR THOUGHTS:
Suggestions and ideas are greatly welcomed. While I'm not a programmer, I can see to it that the financial aspects of the site stay afloat and provides a fast, enjoyable experience for all users (once login issues and other bugs get fixed, naturaly).

So, if you've got an idea, lay it on me!

[orena]

Prints and an FA store both sound like a really good idea.

As far as text adds are concerned, I never really found them to be an eye sore. I've even seen them in some places with customizable colours in the print and background that make them look like their part of the site. Although I know not everyone would feel the same way I do so putting them up, yet giving people the option to take them off their pages is a good idea.

I am warry about the idea of allowing user upgrades and subscription accounts. Basically the problem with these is that all the new features go to the subscriptions while the free accounts are completely ignored and left in the stone age. The free accounds need some attention or people will start resenting the subscribers. When this goes to far the community feels more like a business and less like a community, just look at Deviant Art.

[Dragoneer]

I am warry about the idea of allowing user upgrades and subscription accounts. Basically the problem with these is that all the new features go to the subscriptions while the free accounts are completely ignored and left in the stone age. The free accounds need some attention or people will start resenting the subscribers. When this goes to far the community feels more like a business and less like a community, just look at Deviant Art.

This is an excellent point. Mind you, we've already thought of this.

The account upgrades will offer features that go a little 'above and beyond' average in an attempt to offe things people can use. We still have plans to add features to basic accounts, and I do not want to go the DA route. It's impossible to use DA unless you pay, and I don't find that cool.

Which is why I stated LiveJournal as an approach model. LJ does a lot of excellent things with their pay model.

[Almafeta]

ACCOUNT UPGRADES:
Account upgrades are a more natural choice for pulling in revenue. Allowing people to purchase add-ons or "booster packs" to make give them custom functionality or additional features is an incentive-based way for to help increase income to pay for servers, and upgrade servers down the road when the time comes.

I think of this as more of the Livejournal approach. Ensure every user gets full functionality, but allow interested users to invest in advanced features which cater to their needs.

Maybe allowing larger uploads, or putting an 'upload limit' per day that a premium account has expanded or abolished.

FA STORE:
T-shirts, comics and magazines. Selling items through an FA store for a fair price also works. But my belief is quality. None of that Cafepress crap -- it's ugly, poorly produced and frankly worth nobody's money. FA would be willing to fund comics and portfolios to sell through its stores, providing an excellent cut to the artists to cover production costs.

I'd also like to periodically work with artists to produce shirts and other apparel items that which could be sold via the online FA store. Strong designs, excellent production runs -- none of the craptasticular iron-on designs employed by other sites.

If you can't get a real company to do it, you might want to try Lulu. My company uses them for our books (which we sell), and we've always got commercial-quality stuff from them; you might try them for comics, portfolios, or 'fundrasing compilations' of stories.

PRINTS:
In the future, I think FA will be able to offer the integrated selling of prints -- either via single print or bulk. I'm currently looking into third party vendors who would be willing to assist us in this endeavor while ensuring A) artist security and B) safe, fast e-commerce shopping.[/b]

Difficult, but it would be awesome if you could get it done.

YOUR THOUGHTS:
Suggestions and ideas are greatly welcomed. While I'm not a programmer, I can see to it that the financial aspects of the site stay afloat and provides a fast, enjoyable experience for all users (once login issues and other bugs get fixed, naturaly).

So, if you've got an idea, lay it on me!

FurAffinity-sponsored books, comics, and portfolios sound lovely. You might try doing a compilation CD, commissioning the most popular artists (find out which with a simple database query) at a good multiple of their normal going rate, and selling their art as 'FurAffinity exclusives.' Many artists do CDs, as it's easy to format the content, and it's hard for even a 'bargain-basement' company to mess up...

And I'd still like to advertise my company's offerings on FA somehow ^^;

[Dragoneer]

Maybe allowing larger uploads, or putting an 'upload limit' per day that a premium account has expanded or abolished.[

One of the ideas tossed around was increased upload size, plus (potentially) web hosting. Now, we've got no plans for hosting at the time, but it's one of the ideas. People who purchase enhanced accounts could get access to thinks like Oekaki features, etc.

I was also thinking about purchasable "skins". If people don't like the defalt layout, they could buy a skin for $1.50 and get a different layout. Perhaps let other people see the layout when they browse to that person's FA.

FurAffinity-sponsored books, comics, and portfolios sound lovely. You might try doing a compilation CD, commissioning the most popular artists (find out which with a simple database query) at a good multiple of their normal going rate, and selling their art as 'FurAffinity exclusives.' Many artists do CDs, as it's easy to format the content, and it's hard for even a 'bargain-basement' company to mess up...

I've been tossing the idea around that for a while. I don't want FA to become a business, but the fact is, we do need money to stay alive, and we're not at any risk right now... but it's good to look ahead into the future.

[uncia2000]

Maybe allowing larger uploads, or putting an 'upload limit' per day that a premium account has expanded or abolished.

Yuck to that one

And I'd still like to advertise my company's offerings on FA somehow ^^;

Hmm... could just lob that into the user profile. But extra donations for FA supporters on that side, d'you mean?
Comes back to the divisive issue of "supporter" status on individuals which is still a good idea in funding terms, even though it creates "divisions" in the community in some people's eyes. Might be seen as less of an issue for people who are actively pointing people in directions for personal and/or "business" interests related to the community, but outwith it?

*thinks*

[uncia2000]

One of the ideas tossed around was increased upload size, plus (potentially) web hosting.

I personally like the latter much better ^^
Had passed that in as an idea previously, with regards to co-hosting, but never received a response. Should certainly be possible to balance disk, CPU and bandwidth usage issues using such an approach to get best value-for-money for all involved.

[Dragoneer]

Comes back to the divisive issue of "supporter" status on individuals which is still a good idea in funding terms, even though it creates "divisions" in the community in some people's eyes.

Well, I brought it up before, and heard a lot of the ideas people had. Some thought it was great, others thought it was "elitist".

Frankly, this is a problem with no matter what you do. If you offer upgraded accounts, does this instantly make those people who pay elitist? It's a choice which needs to be made, really. I don't see great rifts in the LJ community about "elitists who pay". If somebody wants to pay $3 to get more icons, y'know, good for them.

If people have problems with that, well... I'm sorry.

[Dragoneer]

Had passed that in as an idea previously, with regards to co-hosting, but never received a response. Should certainly be possible to balance disk usage vs. bandwidth issues using such an approach to get best value for money for all involved.

Well, my idea is that if FA grows enough, and can sustain itself, open another server solely for hosting. Incorporate features on FA which people can use on their site (like commenting).

[orena]

I'm sure you could never go as far as DA, even if you became commersial (which I know you wont). I don't use LiveJournal so I don't know what their subscription service is like.

Also, I just got a good idea as far as banner ads are concerned. Going with an add company is almost always a bad idea. But what if you sold ad spots to individuals, there are lots of people in the furry community who want to advertise their website, online commic, furbit auction and other such things.

[uncia2000]

[edits previous message, above]

I don't see great rifts in the LJ community about "elitists who pay". If somebody wants to pay $3 to get more icons, y'know, good for them.

If people have problems with that, well... I'm sorry.

Indeed!
It is the manner in which it is done and presented to the community that is important. Can definitely be a workable solution with very few negative "repercussions".

Perhaps the difference between ourselves and LJ is that no-one's so particularly interested in the LJ content () whereas here some content contributors may feel somewhat "undervalued" if they've contributed a few hundred excellent submissions, yet are seen as "less important" (somehow) than someone who pays $10-20/year, say.

Definitely a bit of a presentation issue to ensure smoothest-possible implementation, although could be worked-around by various means...

[uncia2000]

But what if you sold ad spots to individuals, there are lots of people in the furry community who want to advertise their website, online commic, furbit auction and other such things.

Thanks.
Yes, the furbid model for community ads was very underused. Has definite possibilities within a more dynamic set up (as here), IMHO.

[uncia2000]

Had passed that in as an idea previously, with regards to co-hosting, but never received a response. Should certainly be possible to balance disk usage vs. bandwidth issues using such an approach to get best value for money for all involved.

Well, my idea is that if FA grows enough, and can sustain itself, open another server solely for hosting. Incorporate features on FA which people can use on their site (like commenting).

*nods*. Agreed!

At present I take it that bandwidth and CPU is (or will be soon) pretty much maxxed out whereas disk space is relatively plentiful.
Should still be possible to play to that strength, perhaps, for hosting accounts. (i.e. not just "high-bandwidth" artist websites).

(aside: The other synergy example I'd mentioned in that context a long-time back was with the likes of VCL. But don't tell Ch'marr I said that )

[orena]

Although I did mention community seperation in my comment about subscription my concerns were more about site usability, which have been explained.

And I agree there are always going to be some die hard users who see the subscribers as elitist, even if it is true or not. Presentation for sure could make or break this idea.

Personally if it was just some goodies on the side (and not a major feature needed for using the site) then I would be willing to pay to try it out.

[Suule]

FA Mag and print studio are the best ideas, and the most costly ones to start up...

Then again, you must avoid the fiasco FN mag turned out to be (Started out good, ended as a disaster...)

[Apartheid]

Jheryn can't even afford to eat; what makes him think he'll be able to fund such a precarious operation?

[squnq]

Goin

[uncia2000]

Jheryn can't even afford to eat; what makes him think he'll be able to fund such a precarious operation?

The idea is hopefully that the "community" (as a whole) will be able to fund most/all of the running costs- but no discredit to anyone who does not personally contribute on a financial basis.

That way Jheryn gets to eat.

=

*nods to <orena> and <Suule>'s observations on the previous page*

[Apartheid]

Jheryn can't even afford to eat; what makes him think he'll be able to fund such a precarious operation?

The idea is hopefully that the "community" (as a whole) will be able to fund most/all of the running costs- but no discredit to anyone who does not personally contribute on a financial basis.

That way Jheryn gets to eat.

I think that Jheryn should prioritize his basic necessities before he puts his funds towards the maintenance and operation of FurAffinity.

Well, at least that's what common sense dictates.

[uncia2000]

I think that Jheryn should prioritize his basic necessities before he puts his funds towards the maintenance and operation of FurAffinity.

Well, at least that's what common sense dictates.

In an ideal world there would have been a multi-millionaire who could've bankrolled a community solution when SA threw the spanner in the works.
That didn't happen.

At that point in time, Jheryn was the "best bet" to take things forward so a large number of people got behind him to try to make it work (not just $, but just as importantly in terms of art contributions and community spirit).


I'd happily see a dozen more well-funded communities in addition to FA and other communities/semi-communities & art archives that currently exist.

Money shouldn't have been an issue last time, but it ended up being so because the community was not kept in touch (there were other issues, too, of course). I'd trust lessons have been learned; and indeed, that appears to be the case, thus far.
Mentioning that the community platform needs money to operate is /NOT/ a negative point, IMO! Merely a statement of fact and an issue that can hopefully be addressed constructively...

JM-02-cents, anyhow ^^

[squnq]

I think that Jheryn should prioritize his basic necessities before he puts his funds towards the maintenance and operation of FurAffinity.

Well, at least that's what common sense dictates.

AFAIK, he isn't putting any funds towards FA. It's entirely community funded. I believe Jheryn's gonna become more of a figurehead as time goes on. Kind of like George Bush at the head of the republican government.

[Apartheid]

AFAIK, he isn't putting any funds towards FA. It's entirely community funded. I believe Jheryn's gonna become more of a figurehead as time goes on. Kind of like George Bush at the head of the republican government.

JIHAD JHERYN IS FUCKING US OVER AGAIN

[Zippo]

Well definitely the flash, pic, and flyin txt ads would definitely screw things up, wreck the GUI, and making ppl want to get ad blocking software, distorting the site's functions and operations its self, and then the complaints come in as to "why doesn?t this site work!", doy, your software is being as aggressive as its written and designed for, and im sure you thought of this too.

As for the alternatives, the thing about "advanced features for 'donators' " is why I stay away from DA, as most people. Sure you have an account, but to use any of the better features, and not to sound like a cheapass you got to open your wallet, and in many users? eyes that?s considered extortion, definitely a negative view of the site and the last thing I want is this site's name to be tarnished in such a manor.

The store is a good idea. One thing about the last version of the site, alot of ppl did custom user pages. All that did (to me) was annoy the crap out of me, as some were hard to view and some found exploits to make it act weird, an option to view everything as its original would be nice and to bypass the user's implementations on their page, but, thats a feature improvement down the road and that doesn?t belong here, or maybe it dose as thats one of the things you can charge for when and if you decide to do the pay for better features thing.

I know as well as you that your doing this site for everyone out of kindness, but kindness isn?t cheap so of course you need revenue to keep it up. 3rd party interference just leads to confusion and trouble, but may be necessary, advertising is a definite no-no, positive ways are hard to come up with, and im willing to think of some if possible. Like, the store, buying prints, that?s a great idea, also, art supplies, a separate page combined with a major well known company that provides supplies/software to artists that need them as the lowest prices possible, like a shopping cart type, I would certainly use it. As for others, I will advise you if I have any more ideas. ^^

[uncia2000]

JIHAD JHERYN IS FUCKING US OVER AGAIN

*g* Some of us would probably not be too fussed about that, so long as the community as a whole benefits.
*watches 513 users currently online* (and not over here, discussing!)

Besides, I know he's not benefiting at all financially and roos are cute anyhow, IMO ^^ *jk*

Am sure he and others deserve credit for all that stress and hard work, last time; even if things could have worked out better.

Going out on a limb here - but I'm of the opinion that people would probably have a lot more confidence in buying premium accounts or additional features once the base site is actually operating without any major issues.

You certainly have a valid point there.

Addressing the issues of start-up funding (to the point where one can more confidently ask users to help fund the community, rather than hoping they'll do so) perhaps requires a difference in short-term/long-term focus.
No harm in tackling both of those...

[squnq]

As for the alternatives, the thing about "advanced features for 'donators' " is why I stay away from DA, as most people. Sure you have an account, but to use any of the better features, and not to sound like a cheapass you got to open your wallet, and in many users? eyes that?s considered extortion, definitely a negative view of the site and the last thing I want is this site's name to be tarnished in such a manor.

j