The New Policy on Cub

[the-pale-tailed-fox]

"I got you, Fosse!"
"No you didn't! I got special wizard armor on!"

LOLZ at D&D pun.

[Shikaro]

100 pages. woa.
dis is gettin more interestin.

[misch]

100 pages of what I'm seeing on this page and the one before it?

No thanks.

Kayote's here, though, so that's cool.

100 pages of what I'm seeing on this page and the one before it?

No thanks.

Kayote's here, though, so that's cool.

No way, back there between all of that there was a page or two where we were talking about nutsack bras and women injuring their breasts.

besides that uh, yeah.


Edit: this is so important i quoted it twice

[ZoomSwish]

I dont understand why some of you WANT the CP back..
Why do you want that label so badly? :/

That's like asking someone to put a "Kick Me!" sign on your back.

Personally I want it back to protect 'ambiguous' art that may be deleted for falling into a grey area, because of stylistic/non-human proportions and 'canon' ages (despite disclaimers). I fear a lot of stuff that isn't intended to be underage will be deleted for not having enough 'human' tell-tale age signs.

[Sheer]

Is it time to derail thread with funny pictures already? Aww.

[htfcuddles]

dis is gettin more interestin.

No.
Is the same as 40 pages back.

[Kooshmeister]

Anyhoo, I think I'll duck out of this thread now that I've had my say.

[Xenke]

So has this pretty much become a temporary GTWT with hints of "bawww cub"?

[Aleu]

holy shit, I thought it'd be locked by now.

[Daddy Ducky BE]

After having read this entire thread for something like 14 continuous hours while listening to the 2009 remasters of The Beatles's Magical Mystery Tour album on a loop, I'm starting off with a few quotes:

AlertPay: "Hello there FurAffinity, did you know that legal precedent in Canada exists that drawn child pornography is legally defined as child pornography? It may be our civic duty to report that your website is transmitting child pornography across Canadian networks to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police."

Thank goodness that FA is transmitting it directly (and exclusively?) to the Canadian police, all those mounties must have been worried where all their private holiday snapshots have ended up.

And I, for one, do not like homosexuality being used in arguments that involve dog or baby fucking.

Too bad we're talking about existing ethnocentric irrational prejudices about sexuality making people entirely incapable of intelligating in any way whatsoever what they're looking at in the first place. Of which the above quote is an example. Sociologists and psychologists have said a quarter of a century ago that homophobic prejudice and prejudice regarding violations of local AoC regulations are structurally identical, the same stereotypes apply.

The fact such an opinion is even more unpopular and inconvenient as it was back then already is only proof of prejudice's total victory over reason, of the fact that people are governed by their irrational unconscious rather than reason no matter how reasonable they'd muse their thoughts and actions to be.

Quick question do you see animals (and i mean ferals out in the wild) have sex with their cubs, pups, kits, baby etc? Just asking because as far as i know they do not

I have [...] yet to see pre-pubescent sex occurring in any species in nature (save humans).

How many URLs do you want? Or more specifically, HAVE YOU EVER LEARNED TO READ? [/facepalm] It's a common style of pacifying, peaceful social communication and social learning particularly among primates due to instinct reduction in higher vertebrates. Never heard of the two panda cubs that Mao gave to Nixon? The delivery had to be delayed by a few months because the two cubs had to be properly initiated in sexual behavior by adults of their own species in order to make them capable of mating at all at a later age. Without such initiation, their adult sex life would have been very dysfunctional at best. Instinct reduction is why social learning, or nurture rather than nature has become such a pivotal issue in primates, also in what sex acts people have been taught to hate or "can't understand" as abominations.

Anyway, I'll be joining 2 the Ranting Gryphon and vote with my feet. For now that FA is at least still allowing shemale porn, I'll still be looking in now and then, but I wonder how activity, commercial ad-clicking, and site access figures in general will develop beyond an unknown number of dead accounts from now on. I think my feelings are summed up in the fact that THOUSANDS OF USERS are browsing this thread...and out of those, only circa 40 appreciated Dragoneer's initial post regarding the modern policy of book-burning (and before anybody's gonna cry GODWIN again, kindly look up the term autodafe on Wikipedia, will ya?) where they'll need to hire circa a hundred people to work 24/7 for months just to manually sort out all that there already IS, after they've lost their very last funding leg to stand on and it looks like they'll never get it back no matter if cub porn is banned or not.

Only 6 hours since this ban announcement, at least 300 artists out of only one person's watches have already abandoned ship, is that also how fast they went when some layout issues were announced?). Not to mention the fact I know a number of artists who had this as their only outlet and who I'm afraid of having entered a suicidal stage due to this latest materialization of hate (no matter how the FA staff themselves might be feeling about it or not) toward their topic until I'll hear back from them.

One thing that keeps getting in the way of this thread's whole issue is the fact that people are continuously unable or unwilling to apply "It's just fantasy" to cub porn (a condition that haters of cub porn seem more likely to adopt than cub lovers). Their incapability is due to a number of historical procedings that started the current trend on book-burning and that are thus highly relevant to our issue at hand, basically a number of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) strategies, coupled with lots of misinformation:

- This current book-burning started out with the paleo-conservative, ultra-reactionary Reagan administration of the 1980s that sponsored the fraudulent Meese commission on the alleged "harms of and social illnesses due to adult (not CP!) pornography",

- the equally fabricated, inept, and self-righteous Report on child pornography of the same era by the Permanent Sub-Comittee on Investigations (originally created by Joe McCarthy in the 1950s as part of the House Committee of Un-American Activities and used during the 1960s and 1970s for COINTELPRO-like campaigns against the civil rights movement and the counter-culture) under Republican William Roth claiming that at the time, kids would be publically mass-auctioned in Western Europe for sadistic and "bizarre" sex purposes,

- government-instigated police campaigns such as Operation Looking-glass acknowledgedly consisting of deliberately planting illegal material (either drugs or "CP") on tens of thousands of unsuspecting citizens of which a number had been undesirables due to their participation in social and political rights groups many of which, unlike ephebophile (not paedophile!) NAMBLA, didn't even have anything to do with sex politics (another common policy adopted from COINTELPRO where social rights activists of the 1960s and 1970s had drugs planted on them or their private lifes compromised such as what had been planned upon Martin Luther King, jr., just prior to his assassination) to show all "decent citizens" how "virulent" the "issue" of CP would be.

- The legacy of police campaigns such as above-mentioned Operation Looking-glass is the fact that since the early 1980s, in the Western world the state is by far the main distributor and peddler of real CP in real life as well as on the internet, a phenomenon increasingly spreading eastwards just like EU and NATO since the fall of the Iron Curtain no matter what Bush, sr., had promised to Gorbachev in return for disassembling the Soviet Union.

Other than the state being the main peddler of real CP for roughly thirty years now, there's also:

- the threatening on behalf of the Reagan and Bush, sr. administrations to entirely politically and economically isolate Western countries not applying or even outright refusing US standards upon their local AoC legislations, without which for instance the Netherlands would have entirely dropped the very idea of Western-style AoC from their lawbooks by the mid-1980s (as there were several bills fully drafted to that effect throughout the decade which were simply not submitted to the parliament warmly welcoming them, only because of Washington threatening isolation everytime) and whereupon West-Germany and France would have followed suit, but due to the bullying by the paleo-conservative Republican US administrations, the Netherlands persued a Dutch-American compromise by only lowering the national AoC to 12 instead in 1990, at a time when the neighboring countries had become less open to such politics due to American influence,

- the widespread pushing of Recovered Memory Therapy establishing whole new Barnum Catalogues fitting anybody and anything on "signs of sexual child abuse" as well as RMT lobbyists making up from scratch entirely new mental disorders and accordant self-corroborrating, socially learned and re-inforced social identities related to having been involved in violations of local AoC regulations as a minor,

- and Finkelhor's concept of "informed consent" (which is where all the talk about "consent" regarding AoC legislation stems from nowadays, everybody's basically acknowledging Finkelhor there while completely misquoting him), whereupon Finkelhor himself said that a.) children CAN consent to sex, although it's just SIMPLE consent, and b.) AoC laws are NOT about protecting children and that he doesn't care one bit if children are hurt or harmed, but that such laws are about protecting society from "general immorality" when people realize how little children are actually harmed by particular activities. Finkelhor thus simply gave a newer sounding handle to the centuries-old concept of prescribed "immature judgment" and forceful infantilization pertaining to increasingly older people, maintaining the traditional ban upon all things arbitrarily defined by society as beyond said "immature judgment" that can only be selfishly exploited by the "morally insane" (another such ancient concept) no matter (and most likely ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF) how much alleged "victims" may be enjoying particularly things (as there's scientific research, mostly ignored, amassing thousands of such cases in the West alone, and that's just the few studies that actually bothered to even check, so yes, our forum member the-pale-tailed-fox is not alone there), such as non-incest, non-penetrative acts, they are meant not to understand (no matter how priorly experienced in fact they are, albeit all mental, social, and pschyo-sexual maturity is made up of social interaction instead of isolation, or how much they state to have enjoyed it even decades later) and how little they may be harmed by it ("corrupted", on the other hand, is a bit of an ambigious term here, it can mean hurt and imposing suffering as well as simply creating a loss to "decent society" by breeding "immorality" aka indifference towards repressive values that have been experienced as entirely prejudiced by those people labeled as "victims" when they never saw themselves as such).

All of the above went on while in all non-sexual matters, people of all ages are as open as ever to violating exploitation, especially economically (and current education is nothing but education towards that very exploitation, both of oneself and others), deforming personalities into the fundamental dysfunctionality that is running this very system.

NONE OF THE ABOVE IS REASON TO GO OUT AND BREAK EXISTING LAWS (that don't pertain to cub porn at least where FA's servers reside) to make the machinery hurt to the level of severe traumatizing by legal and social means everyone involved in the act, but spend a thought or two on what's actually going on. The forces of the status quo were facing protests that made them nervous some 40 years ago, and look how they dealt with it in order to contain the petty uprisings of the New Left and the so-called "sexual revolution".

Like it or not, it's all of the above as to why it's come down to that today we're seeing the banning and persecution of lines on paper resembling unanimously happy, physically intact people that aren't even human (at the same time when people are successfully upholding the "fantasy" argument to much more conventional, convenient, common, and affirmative depictions of violence, mutilation, and murder both inside and outside of the furry fandom and especially in the mass media) as also executed partly by FA staff effectively as of 21 days from now. The happy few celebrating the new FA policy on mature cub art in this thread have been feeding upon waste such as all that, all these new Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Godwin-invokers: Please go check out a cozy little place called "Czarist Russia" on Wikipedia), for a long time which they've been puking out as hate speech upon all that didn't fit their image of a "decent citizen" in order to lobby their cause, waste that was always subliminally present in their phrasings and reasonings even when they were hiding behind the "decent morals" of society outside FA.

To think it had come to this because of financial tools of ethnocentric, self-righteous morals enforcement. About two years ago, I suggested anybody out of the wide furry fandom simply programming an own furry online payment service with a voluntary option of sending a percentage to FA (or other furry sites). My suggestion was sabotaged by anarcho-capitalist proto-Tea Bagger furs yelling, "NO TAXES! NO TAXES!" The American dislike for taxes and institutions of civilization such as the state, borne out of a pathological hatred for all the forms of co-operation instead of competition as found in solidarity, charity and welfare, "socialism" (whatever that is), and anything related not or even opposed to global Capitalism today, reigned supreme, and I'm not surprised that this system is not even questioned in our post-Fordian, post-Lehman world of today.

Dragoneer said big corporations don't control free speech, they control money. I consider it naive to be ignorant of the fact that in a free market economy, money IS free speech (and free expression, free press, free EVERYTHING) even under the conditions of the internet age as FA is now forced to see. That's also why this step by FA DOESN'T meant that any other place at all would be happy to face the same threat and step into the void left behind, especially not long-term. True freedom, all "rights" and democracy are a commodity restricted to the lucky few who can afford them (though most likely the skills and qualifications you'll need for MAKING that money will make you uninterested in true freedom to begin with, and your sense of democracy will become one of mass-votes based upon how you're deliberately or unconsciously controlling people's mass-media manipulation to make them vote like you want them to, a technique which Adorno termed the Kulturindustrie 70 years ago). It's also why "This site's private property, GTFO" and "Nobody's taking your right to do something entirely isolated from anybody in the privacy of your own home" is pretty moot, the way things are set up at the time you'll ALWAYS need something big that's labeled "private property" in order to be heard (and watched), especially heard at a level that matters and especially if the state is blocking its own public communication channels from you to begin with.

Half a century ago, the Frankfurt School of Critical Theory started by Adorno acknowledged this socio-economic system, the latest off-shoot of the standard Western, Indo-European culture of social-Darwinist, ethnocentric, positivistic, sensuality-repressing, sado-masochistic exploitation of oneself and others in the name of entirely imaginary and irrational "morals", "values", and some "greater good", of "free markets" and "free enterprise", all under the reign of the inhuman performance rather than the pleasure principle, as the one hindrance of a truly humane, humanitarian, responsible Eros as the only possible cause of liberation of mankind. Marcuse pioneered this new humanitarianism free from economic forces unleashed both willfully and unconsciously by tyrannic man upon man in his Eros and Civilization, and twenty-five years after he had narrowly escaped the Holocaust only by his Frankfurt School peers paying both the Reichsfluchtsteuer ("Reich Evasion Tax" to be payed by all emigrants "of Jewish race") and his passage across the Big Pond, Critial Theory's main inceptor and central thinker Theodor Adorno called for abolishment of all AoC legislations in order to combat the sado-masochistic Authoritarian personality type running this Totalitarian society upon its repressive inception during early socialization, a socialization that due to its repressive values, by means of frustration and social learning of social identities, deforms sexual behavior and expression into the very kind of dysfunctionality that is used to justify these repressive values in the first place. The war on nature and sex is NOT won by mankind, instead human nature will turn upon itself in barbaric tyranny of man upon man and render humanity itself most dysfunctional due to fake "necessity", and that is the history of social-Darwinistic Indo-European society in a nutshell.

Where has it all come down to instead in an uncaring, never listening, prejudiced, affirmative anti-intellectual culture celebrating the denial of oneself and others in the name of social-Darwinistic competition upon "free markets"? In a world administrated by instrumental reason in order to efficiently enforce and re-enforce irrational reactionary traditional values, morals, and accordant ideologies used to label sensual minorities, outsiders, and outgroups as the anti-Christ, the ultimate enemy and the bringers of armageddon since time immemorial (socio-cultural patterns of Indo-European society that appeared older than time itself already by the time the Egyptians began construction of their first pyramids), it's come down to new witch-hunts the Spanish Inquisition would have been more than proud of when they were going after sodomites and fornicating witches (whose alleged destructive, corrupting "witchcraft" was nothing but a cultural code for the deadly sensual sins that were so irrationally, numinally taboo that nobody dared speak their name, a "wall of silence" that its very own enforcers have always been deploring for hindering them from detecting and eradicating their ostracized boogeymen and folk-devils even more efficiently) which the Church saw as the pivotal menace to their transcendent, sensuality-repressing, truly Western dogmas, in a world where the best that can be said for the Western system of criminal law enforcement where it's based entirely on ethnocentric irrational values is its function of keeping angry lynch mobs at bay by delegating society's aggressive homocidal and pogrom impulses upon more civilized, more efficient means of marginalization and liquidation.

Ceterum censeo: Imperio occidentali esse delendam.

[the-pale-tailed-fox]

No.
Is the same as 40 pages back.

thats 60 pages back sir. *snickers*

[Sheer]

After having read this entire thread for something like 14 continuous hours while listening to the 2009 remasters of The Beatles's Magical Mystery Tour album on a loop, I'm starting off with a few quotes:

rargherhrhdkjsdf

Awesome.

[misch]

So has this pretty much become a temporary GTWT with hints of "bawww cub"?

i did not even have to answer this question, how convenient

[Xenke]

I'm not quoting this shit

By your inability to state an opinion or fact in a concise manner, I'm going to assume you are an idiot.

Also, +10 douchebag for latin.

[Aleu]

holy shit post alot Lol thats sooooo tL;DR

then why did you quote it?

[Takeshi]

101 pages already?

I bet not one of you read more than one or two posts in this thread. Which of course means no one read yours either.

[Yokai Moon]

How many URLs do you want? Or more specifically, HAVE YOU EVER LEARNED TO READ? [/facepalm] It's a common style of pacifying, peaceful social communication and social learning particularly among primates due to instinct reduction in higher vertebrates. Never heard of the two panda cubs that Mao gave to Nixon? The delivery had to be delayed by a few months because the two cubs had to be properly initiated in sexual behavior by adults of their own species in order to make them capable of mating at all at a later age. Without such initiation, their adult sex life would have been very dysfunctional at best. Instinct reduction is why social learning, or nurture rather than nature has become such a pivotal issue in primates, also in what sex acts people have been taught to hate or "can't understand" as abominations.

Can I get the link to where you got this information so i can read it?

[Terrah.]

I want to keep arguing but I think it's all been said already.

Guess I'll go clear out the gray areas from my gallery.

[Sheer]

By your inability to state an opinion or fact in a concise manner, I'm going to assume you are an idiot.

Also, +10 douchebag for latin.

A bit jealous that you can't make rousing speeches like that huh? awwwwwwwwwww....
AAAAWWWWWWWWW.....

[misch]

101 pages already?

I bet not one of you read more than one or two posts in this thread. Which of course means no one read yours either.

you just made so much sense!

[Lolf]

You guys are quite funny thinking banning cub will make the site look better. People usually hate more furries than loli just for your information.

[Aleu]

101 pages already?

I bet not one of you read more than one or two posts in this thread. Which of course means no one read yours either.

I have read more than one or two posts.

[the-pale-tailed-fox]

then why did you quote it?

i don't really know .......
*ponders*

[Cindercheth]

You can see from my posts that I like to avoid commenting here. I am NOT a Drama Dragon. But in this case, I can give you an answer, I think.

It's an old concept, but I think a well grounded one. People who see things that spark their imaginations in a very primal way end up with those things wandering around in their heads. Murder, rape, violent sex, gorging on food... all of these things affect a person's mind, whether fictional or not. Though it's not always the case, the younger the mind in question, the more "effective" it is as they both have more time to think about such things, and are generally more open minded than older people.

Cub Porn, though harmless in and of itself (unless you write/draw a shit-ton of it, roll it into a tube and beat people with it) fits into this category. It has the ability to place into the mind of a viewer several concepts that aren't really all that great, such as age limitations on sex are pointless, adults "teaching" their kids sex by f**king them is acceptable, sex at four years of age is perfectly fine, etc. Btw... if you read any of those and think those things ARE fine, you prove my point. These ideas aren't accepted by most of the world, and sadly, that makes them a problem to have circulated around. It also puts this website on the spot for appearing to do so willfully.

As for how it affects actual kids? If someone who doesn't have these ideas in their mind is alone with a vulnerable child, I believe that person is less likely to consider acting on those concepts than someone who regularly views art of this type and finds it appealing. Maybe they're watching a brother or sister who trusts them, or someone else's child who is friendly and curious. A comparison can be made with people who were straight when they joined the fandom, made friends and viewed art of all sorts of gay situations, then tried it once. Before any of that happened, it was most likely a far less likely occurrence.

Art is influential to those who view it; sometimes far more than it should be. If through your art, you set certain mental processes in motion, I think it's possible that something could come of it. And so yes, I think that drawing these fictional characters and writing these fictional stories could actually lead to some child being molested or at the very least being treated like an adult long before they are ready.

I would like to argue contrarily to these points. Sexuality is natural among adults (and even in kids, not to say that "teaching kids" about sex is remotely acceptable. It isn't). Of all my years being into babyfur and cub porn, I have only heard of ONE case where someone crossed the line. Went by the name Alan Panda, and the most youthful he went for was 15 (still unnacceptible, and I know that as well as you). As long as cub porn stays away from children, and remains "the adult baby from the concept of adult baby/diaper lover" end of the spectrum within the furry fandom, then as adults: it is still staying within the age of consent. Although you got me curious, now... did such images ever give you ideas that never existed before?

As a cub porn enthusiast for as long as I've been a fur (over a decade), I never once got the idea in my head that it was okay to do any of this stuff with a real child. Children are not educated enough to know what sex means, the responsibilities that come along with it, or how serious an issue that STD's are. I knew that I liked being "cubby" before having ever seen such images, and indeed: I specifically sought such images out to appeal to my desire to "being taken care of" (in more ways then one, as you can imagine). Thus, I already had those ideas, and from the start: it has always been my interest in being treated as "cub" with the knowledge that I am undeniably adult.

Again, I would like to repeat my former question, only modifying it a bit: if you went and looked at a rape pic, and it was done in just the way as to turn you on, despite the fact it technically represents rape: would you find rape any more acceptable as a result of having seen that picture?

It is in my mind that people with certain tendencies/interests have them in their mind LONG before discovering such material on the internet, and that it just might be possible that such artistic representation may keep such people occupied and sitting at their computer instead of taking it to the street where real children are in no short supply.

At least this is my perspective, one that I have because I am a cute fetishist, and cub porn is cute. Whereas screwing children is disgusting (IE - NOT cute at all), and goes to show that the person doing it is devoid of morality.

[Heimdal]

theoretically immoral.

Is it possible you could find a judge who actually agreed with the idea that theoretical immorality cannot be treated as the real thing?

frothing masses of mentally inferior users who would scream and rant because they find it gross even while they themselves also enjoy things that should never be spoken of in public either. I'm very unhappy that this has happened because the law being used against the site was made by lawmakers who cannot separate fantasy from reality. For all we know they could go after rape and guro next, then decide vore and bestiality art have to go too. All it takes is the whim of public opinion and the next 'wrong' thing could be banned because of a new law that classifies the immaterial as the same as the real thing.

Humanity is full of unintelligent fools who take everything too seriously and have no real grasp of morality or that the majority is not always right. A lot of those people have shown up on this very thread today. They will wallow in their blissful ignorance over this, and then find something else to target because in their personal opinion it should be gone. And I doubt it will get better because we as a species don't seem to really be making any progress in advancing our inherent intellect as opposed to our rote memorization which does nothing for making moral decisions.

Theoretical morality? Because you can carry regular morality around in your pocket, and the theoretical stuff is just silly perception?

No, there's no "dumb people who don't know their facts" regarding morality. It's entirely about what society agrees as moral, and cub porn is right out. It blows my mind how unprepared and indignant you all are; you know how ridiculously taboo this stuff is, it was really only a matter of time. Speaking of ignorance, your 'anti-humanity propaganda' sounds like you're far too detached from reality.