Is depression real?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aleksion, Mar 8, 2017.

  1. Crimson_Steel17

    Crimson_Steel17 The night is my solace; the day is my prime

    No, I don't think @Aleksion was going for any impression that involved an actual medical diagnosis... He seems like the kind that assumes it's all "Oh, I guess *insert name here* shouldn't have eaten all that McDonalds" and never "Maybe the Prednisone saving her life had unintended side effects"...

    Although, I haven't finished Bones yet- I'm only in about Season 3. I was just trying to make a joke out of @Aleksion being so deluded that he couldn't do any research and had to TL;DR his own argument xD
  2. Saiko

    Saiko GTWT Survivor

    You do realize that they test for that during clinical trials before they start selling the drug, right? Otherwise they can't market it as treating the condition.

    At this point you're being willfully ignorant.
    Crimson_Steel17 likes this.
  3. Aleksion

    Aleksion They killed me

    To get fat you have to constantly consume more energy than you expend. Your pills or some very rare genetic disorder won't bend the fundamental rules of physics. Obesity is a choice.

    Yes they do have to be tasted. But so what? FDA is in their pockets. Just google antidepressant placebo.

    @quoting_mungo so as I understand you have been dealing with anxiety and depression for a very long time. Pills don't seem to work well, everything is still gray and empty, drugs just make it a bit more manageable. You know it sounds kinda of bad. Are you planning to live like this till you die, chugging down pills just to survive to live another shitty day? People do get over those feelings, it is possible, you can too. If you stop considering it as a chemical or other physical problem, you would see you have many more options.
  4. Crimson_Steel17

    Crimson_Steel17 The night is my solace; the day is my prime

    @quoting_mungo can one block OP from his own thread? This man is beyond reason...

    Also, OP can shut up any time now. You clearly don't know shit of what you speak about.
    "Have a nice day, asshole" -Arnold Schwarzenegger
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  5. quoting_mungo

    quoting_mungo Administrator Staff Member

    The US FDA doesn't have nearly as much sway as you seem to think outside of the US. And antidepressants are, surprise surprise, approved for use outside of the US, too.

    I can't cite the specific conditions off the top of my head, but there are in fact genetic/metabolic disorders that can have you dying of malnutrition if you attempt to restrict caloric intake to the point necessary to maintain a "normal" weight. There is also a large number of drugs that will predispose the body to weight gain. Your idea of "choice" here is... not healthy.

    Hopefully not. Life on meds is vastly preferable to life off of them, however. Unless you're seriously suggesting I should off myself to avoid having more of these shitty days, in which case I'll be happy to give you a vacation from the forums. :V But yes, I've been dealing with anxiety and depression for a very long time. Pills are not a magic cure, which I've never claimed that they are, but they make a huge difference in quality of life for me. I know other people who have similar experiences. The fact that I maybe have one or two days a month where I have bothersome levels of ambient anxiety, instead of maybe 3-4 days a month without it makes a huge difference.

    All I'm asking for here, really, is that if I'm willing to respect the experiences of people for whom drugs didn't work, which I am, I'm shown the same courtesy. If I want someone to give me the "mind over matter" "just don't give in to depression" spiel, I'll go talk to my dad.
  6. Saiko

    Saiko GTWT Survivor

    Okay actually I'm foot-in-mouthing a bit now.

    @quoting_mungo, do you mind giving me some feedback on this? As far as I can tell, it's a reliable source; but you're more familiar with the topic.
  7. quoting_mungo

    quoting_mungo Administrator Staff Member

    It's hardly news that antidepressants make more of a difference for more severe depression, nor that they work better in combination with therapy. Most of the studies they've reviewed seem to concern short-term trials, which I'm a bit wary of based on my own experience. It's also not news that many people whose condition improves on them will need to try more than one drug before finding what works best for them. This isn't something drug trials are geared towards, and far as I can tell the article is primarily based on drug trials.

    (I also don't offhand know the particular rating scale they used for assessing effectiveness, so I can't say how prone it would be to skew results - one such scale I've seen only assigns "points" in one section if one sleeps less than 8 hours/night, if memory serves. Let's posit that someone is sleeping 14 hours/night because depression. They'll score as "not depressed" on that section of the assessment scale. Then they start on an antidepressant, and happen to be one of the unlucky folks who experience insomnia as a side effect. Suddenly they're sleeping 6 hours/night and will score as MORE depressed on that section of the assessment. This is part of why I hate self-assessment questionaires.)

    If people want to try a pure-therapy approach, or natural remedies (I had some positive effect from taking roseroot, myself), or exercise, or diet, or acupuncture, or whatever else, they're welcome to. I very much think that, within reason, you should do what makes you feel best. For me, so far, that seems to be "take my goddamn meds", so that's what I'm doing. If you're not comfortable taking meds, by all means discuss that with your doctor.

    Literally all I'm asking when it comes to discussing antidepressants, is that people don't condemn them across the board. Say they didn't work for you, if that's the case, or say that you don't believe in them personally, but don't outright advise against them. I know too many people for whom they've made a positive difference to find it anything but offensive when I see people worried about depression being told "never take antidepressants."
    Saiko likes this.
  8. Rykhoteth


    Might be derailing, but, ironically the two things flying on my facebook feeds right now are about the new healthcare plan and some "fat acceptance" stuff. The obesity epidemic in the United States is estimated to cost taxpayers somewhere around 200+ billion dollars, while the controversial healthcare changes by Trump might save around 330 billion. So it's been on my mind today.

    The obesity-malnutrition paradox is caused by empty calories, eg when Coke is cheaper than clean water. I blame the "fat-free" fad, turned so much stuff into empty calories. Only fats and protein calories are counted in hunger regulation, and only macro-nutrients contribute to calories, and micro-nutrients are very widely available in more supplements than you ever really need. Steroids and other drugs, that also give increased water retention which a lot of people confuse for weight gain, will increase appetite as well, yes. Although I cannot find the particular rare genetic disorder you're referring to, such things for the vast majority of normal cases does not handwave personal responsibility says the guy with the drinking problem. I've actually gotten myself back within a "normal" BMI, still going down. Alcohol increases appetite, I had developed some bad eating habits on top of the empty calories. I just made of point of being a stickler for counting calories (planned meals FTW), just dealing with being hungry because I know a drug and erroneous sensory is responsible for the sensation, and I actually followed through with the New Years resolution of a gym membership to burn the empty calories since I refuse to give up drinking. On the flip is a buddy of mine with an intestinal complication that keeps him from absorbing much nutrients from his food, so he's perpetually underweight and at risk of malnutrition at all times, so he relies on a lot of nutritional supplements to stay healthy.
    There is no converse. Calories always come from macro-nutrients. There might be a few rare disorders out there that somehow waste or require abnormal amounts of fat/protein/carbs but I've never heard of it. Drugs are altering your sense of hunger, not caloric requirements.

    I wouldn't phrase it "Obesity is a personal choice" so much as "Not being fat is a fuckload of work and suffering". Yes, drugs may increase said suffering in this regard as a side effect. I hate "bootstrap" arguments, but as somebody that actually put in the suffering, I have to give it.

    There's also some interesting studies and cases. The Twinkie Diet is a favorite of mine, losing weight eating nothing but Hostess snacks. This yes, you would probably die from malnutrition if you kept it up while restricting net calories with no supplements. There was also a man in the UK who fasted for a year, taking nothing but supplements under close supervision of his doctor. That is more in line for what I picture when people say "losing weight is unhealthy".
    Jarren likes this.
  9. Crimson_Steel17

    Crimson_Steel17 The night is my solace; the day is my prime

    THANK YOU. I can't say how many times I've actually seen someone recognize the impossibility of a norm, but I can count the ones I remember on one hand. I would like to add the 3rd option out there, and that is the side of effects of some prescription medications (*cough cough* Prednisone *cough*) that can cause unexplained weight gain in anyone without warning. Unfortunately, the only way to combat this side effect is to stop the medication which (this is where my personal experience with the obesity bit comes in, although the depression was from a close friend of mine) is what's keeping my relative alive- and that's not an option if we don't want her hospitalized for an otherwise untreatable, unidentifiable ailment. I know that there are other medications with the same side effect, but that's the one I've seen firsthand
  10. Rykhoteth


    Steroid. Increased hunger and water retention. Not a "third option". Still sucks. Water retention is damn near exponential if you've already got some fat on you, since you will retain that much more. Overweight people will magically lose 30 lbs once they're off steroids without changing anything and assume the drug magically put on and took off fat.
  11. Crimson_Steel17

    Crimson_Steel17 The night is my solace; the day is my prime

    Y'know what? Fuck off. It's a side effect, that's what I was getting at, and if your "bootstrap" argument is so precious to you that you can't recognize what happens to others then fuck off
  12. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox Well-Known Member

    You know it's a sad day in history when people honestly believe that depression is something others make up just to feel like special snowflakes...
  13. Rykhoteth


    I was just saying it's hardly unexplained, or without warning. I quote: "[it] can cause unexplained weight gain in anyone without warning". And if it's sudden, it's mostly water retention, also on the warning label. I fucking hate water retention, you can flim flam between looking flat and looking overweight.

    Now, the actual best thing about "bootstrapping" your diet? Savings. Planning meals makes food dirt cheap. I damn near cut my grocery expenses in half and have gotten pretty decent at cooking and related timesavings.

    Then there's the people who say "hah depression doesn't exist" but on the rare occasion they kind of feel down it's "I'm depressed".
  14. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox Well-Known Member

    Those people clearly don't understand the difference between being depressed, and actual depression. Real depression is something you don't just "get over", and more often than not, drags on throughout the duration of one's life...
    AustinB likes this.
  15. Kezi Avdiivka

    Kezi Avdiivka Active Member

    Medi student here currently studying Neuroscience.

    Yes depression is real. See, when you undergo a fuckton of stress, your body begins to burn off things called Neurotransmitters. You know these as Dopamine, Serotonin and Norepinephrine. These chemicals are made up of things called Amino Acids. Serotonin is made from 5-HTP which is made from L-Tryptophan, Dopamine and Norepinephrine are made from L-Tyrosine. To get these amino acids you need to eat protein, about 50-60 grams a day. If you don't do this here what happens...

    Your body is going to get what it needs to survive no matter what, it'll sacrifice organs just to conserve energy. If you don't have enough dopamine or norep and you undergo a very stressful, life altering event? Your body is programmed to literally salvage these neurotransmitters from actual brain cells and overtime, the "survival of the fittest" begins to call. We call this, neurodegeration. If it gets to a point where it is a constant event, the brain will begin to lose it's ability to regulate the transmitters. This causes mental illness, causes people to think horrid thoughts when depressed. And because the human body is programmed NEVER to "Devolve" past a certain point. Something scary happens...

    The body separates from the mind and literally self-terminates without a person really deciding if they want too or not. It literally tricks them into thinking the right choice is to off yourself.

    Rebuilding the receptors are a bitch too.

    I can literally talk for hours about this but I am tired hehe
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  16. quoting_mungo

    quoting_mungo Administrator Staff Member

    That's a more realistic way of putting it, yes, even if I'd say some of your conclusion is a bit harsh. For people who have been dealt shitty cards, that suffering may be disproportionate to the potential gain, and it's hardly fair to them to assume that their obesity is due to laziness. As a more... indirect possibility, I'd also consider chronic fatigue or other "spoon" conditions. (If you're unfamiliar with The Spoon Theory, the TL;DR is that it's a method of explaining/concretizing the constant energy budgeting people with chronic illnesses have to do.) Even if caloric intake can be healthily restricted, for some of these people it'd likely require outside support, which not everyone has access to.
    Rykhoteth likes this.
  17. Crimson_Steel17

    Crimson_Steel17 The night is my solace; the day is my prime

    What's sad is even though I know every word you used, and I understand all of what you said, I'm still confused as fuck... Thank you, Latin. Thank you.
  18. Rykhoteth


    I subscribe to the "Ego Depletion" theory, so yes "laziness" as being relative I think applies to the majority of people. Specifically with drugs and food, the path of least resistance is often a black hole: it only gets harder to climb out of. Finishing my degree I'd become well overweight and gaining, so either I took charge immediately or let it become a bigger problem later hue hue hue. Of course, no longer cramming 80 hour weeks, getting a full nights sleep every night, and actually having any free time helped considerably.

    Literally what. Now I'm digging for articles on neurodegeneration and depression. I had no idea they were linked.
  19. Crimson_Steel17

    Crimson_Steel17 The night is my solace; the day is my prime

    It's amazing what one can learn when (s)he opens his/her mind- too bad OP couldn't follow suit
  20. aloveablebunny

    aloveablebunny boop the snoot

    Depression is very real, and overcoming it is not as easy as "snapping out of it".

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