America Vs Europe

[Mr Fox]

Lol.

 

[PenningtontheSkunk]

I always dreamed about going to Europe. I heard that England is nice.
Europe all the way!!! I also heard Australia is nice too.

 

[ceacar99]

No-one is disputing the quality of American healthcare from the perspective of treatment - it's the availability of American healthcare to its citizens which is the problem. The best treatments, doctors and surgeons on the planet are no damn good to people if, through lack of cash or insurance cover, they can't afford the care to get well!

well, part of the issue with the information provided as i said involves diseases related to someone eating too much or just having a poor diet. the numbers still would likely lean towards your viewpoint but substantially less so considering that those diseases represent the most common causes of american deaths. the other issue i have thought of with the information provided is how it would compare if you stacked the whole european union against the us. as i've shown before, the european union vs the us is COMPLETELY different then luxembourg or even france vs the us.

however, your arguement above does post a pretty good point. the real question is if those numbers you provided are the result of people's lack of ability to visit the doctor due to cost, if its from a cultural thing of not wanting to visit the doctor unless something serious comes up, or if the mentioned american diet and lifestyle skews the numbers THAT much. i'd have already done some research into that and posted something on the subject but i dont have time this evening so the whole research thing will have to wait a minute.

 

[Rostam The Grey]

Really? If the average person in the US can afford health care, then how come more patients die in the US from diseases that could be treated by timely intervention than in any other leading industrialised country?

In my experience it's not cost. It's many other things. A lot of people I know can pretty much go to the doctor for free due to their health insurance. But they don't... People don't like to go to the doctor until they have to. Than a lot of times, people will go to the doctor and be told that it's nothing major and then die from something major that could have been prevented with early intervention. My Dad died from lung cancer that he would have had a better chance against with early intervention, but he waited until he had full blown pnuemonia and could barely breathe to go to the doctor because he didn't want to go.

Or, as one blogger put it: "Surely it's a coincidence that the "leading" performer in that category is the only country without universal health care?

But like Madeleine Albright said about the death of hundreds of thousands Iraqi kids in the 90s because of the sanctions regime, "it is worth it" - some principles are worth upholding even if it is tragically costly to do so. These hundred thousand Americans dying earlier than could have been each year (imagine: one million preventable deaths over the past decade!) are the front line soldiers in the fight for freedom and against socialism."

In other words: Each year, 101,000 Americans die needlessly because they're not French.

You may be right, universal healthcare may be the solution. But that's beside the point. Point is I don't want universal health care. And until a majority of Americans want it, it's not going to happen. Although, it looks like the tide is turning and I may get swept away. But based on what I've heard, initially our universal healthcare will simply be tax cuts and breaks as well as forced implementation. That wont do anything but piss people off when they get fined for not getting it or are forced to dish out money for something they aren't going to use. One step forward 2 steps back. If they are going to do it and they can get enough Americans to stand behind them, go full blown.... Don't piddle forward.

 

[lilEmber]

You aren't the majority. No matter what YOU want, it won't fly, especially in Capitalism.
It's like you're totally against socialism, except you want your own opinions to matter.

 

[Rostam The Grey]

You aren't the majority. No matter what YOU want, it won't fly, especially in Capitalism.
It's like you're totally against socialism, except you want your own opinions to matter.

Um, in the currently Democracy, my opinion does matter.... And I didn't say I was the majority, just that the majority doesn't want it at the moment. Although its slowly changing, half-assing it by making health insurance mandatory is going to have the reverse effect.

 

[lilEmber]

No, it doesn't. It's the majority that matters in a democracy and the higher ups in capitalism. Your country is both, and the majority is morons; proposition 8, anybody?

And the majority does want free health care, actually; why would they not want it, other than attempting to prove some idiotic point, using yourself as an example.

 

[ceacar99]

No, it doesn't. It's the majority that matters in a democracy and the higher ups in capitalism. Your country is both, and the majority is morons; proposition 8, anybody?

And the majority does want free health care, actually; why would they not want it, other than attempting to prove some idiotic point, using yourself as an example.

if the majority wanted it then why do so many politicians, even liberals think of it as political suicide to push for truly universal healthcare? in our federal government those who openly support state run healthcare are the MINORITY. there's a reason such a thing hasn't passed yet moron....

why would they not want it

BECAUSE MANY OF US BELIEVE THAT WE WILL HAVE BETTER HOSPITALS AND DOCTORS IF WE RUN IT ON A "CAPITALIST SYSTEM" AND HAVE THE PEOPLE PAY INTO IT WHAT IT NEEDS INSTEAD OF HAVING THE GOVERNMENT TELLING IT WHAT IT NEEDS.

look at the sort of shit that happens when the state decides what people need instead of the people themselves....

http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/article9.htm
http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/article7.htm

more of them are going to the U.S. for better pay and working conditions.

and its a fucking third party source. it isnt canada(which would likely naturally be lauding its own system) nor is it american(which would likely naturally be a detractor) but a third party source and "critique".

added: oh look another good article....

At the meeting the association also released the results of a recent national public opinion poll that said that Canadians' confidence in their healthcare system has reached an all time low. The poll found that the number of Canadians who believe that waiting times in hospital emergency rooms have worsened has reached 73%, up from 54% in 1996--and six in 10 feel that their access to specialists has worsened.

 

[Mayfurr]

if the majority wanted it then why do so many politicians, even liberals think of it as political suicide to push for truly universal healthcare?

Um, because of lobby groups that rather enjoy the status quo, like from the insurance industry? Because of "better dead than Red" conservatives that would rather sacrifice 101,000 Americans per year from preventable diseases on the altar of politically-correct "freedom"? Because of propaganda insinuating one day public healthcare, the next day communism?

BECAUSE MANY OF US BELIEVE THAT WE WILL HAVE BETTER HOSPITALS AND DOCTORS IF WE RUN IT ON A "CAPITALIST SYSTEM" AND HAVE THE PEOPLE PAY INTO IT WHAT IT NEEDS INSTEAD OF HAVING THE GOVERNMENT TELLING IT WHAT IT NEEDS.

You may believe that - but that's not what the facts and figured bear out comparing the US system to those of other countries. And for your information, it is perfectly possible for a publicly-funded health services and private health carers to co-exist. They certainly do in my country.

And as for the "kind of shit" that happens in public health systems - well, there's just as much shit (if not more) happening with the private US system. Things like being charged for an emergency ambulance ride... (not covered by insurance?!? Good god, someone charges for a damn ambulance?!?)

 

[lilEmber]

Hahaha...the reason it's better is because we believe it so.

Flawless argument.

 

[ceacar99]

not covered by insurance?!? Good god, someone charges for a damn ambulance?!?

you have ANY idea how many costs there are in the ambulance and the personnel? ya, doubt you do.... look, a rolling emergency care unit with highly trained level headed personnel that can keep cool and can stabilize someone so they can survive the ride to the hospital doesnt come cheep. and as we discover in just about everything when you but a senile old bean counter bureaucrat in charge of things nothing seems to get the funding it needs. so instead of that being rescue racing towards you its rather a rickety wagon of death. hell, i provided links of what happens to perfectly good health care when senile old politicians are put in charge of things.

Um, because of lobby groups that rather enjoy the status quo

and what about the lobby groups that are highly funded and motivated to create universal healthcare? people always blame the lobbyists but the truth is that in issues such as this there is a counter lobby almost every damn time. ya know what bud, the law isn't made by how much damn money you have. if that were the truth then smoking wouldnt be banned in public places such as bars and restaurants in roughly half the country...... the whole "the big corporations always win because they have all the money" is bullshit.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/470300999_bc272ccb30.jpg

the "evil block" of corperations (tobacco, oil, and the insurance companies) wins again! not really....

 

[lilEmber]

In the UK it's 100% for the ambulance, and if you have kids they will get you a sitter, or so I've heard.
This is also true for France.

They'll pay for a cab home.


In Canada, depending on the emergency it's free.

 

[Mayfurr]

look, a rolling emergency care unit with highly trained level headed personnel that can keep cool and can stabilize someone so they can survive the ride to the hospital doesnt come cheep. and as we discover in just about everything when you but a senile old bean counter bureaucrat in charge of things nothing seems to get the funding it needs. so instead of that being rescue racing towards you its rather a rickety wagon of death.

You really do have your head up your arse, don't you? Do you actually do any research, or are you just spouting off preconceptions that the US is automatically better because you say so?

The ambulances in my country - under a public-funded health system, no less - are hardly "rickety wagons of death" as you so carelessly imply. Very modern, up-to-date emergency care is provided - as I can attest to first-hand when a very close friend of mine last year suffered a brain seizure and had to be taken to hospital Accident & Emergency by the local ambulance service. And how much was charged for this service? NOTHING. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Not even a bill in the post afterwards.

And guess what? This same person was diagnosed with a benign brain tumour, which of course had to be removed. She had the standard MRI scans, consultations, was scheduled for cranial surgery in the public health service, and was duly operated on with the tumour removed. Post-op care was scheduled and carried out, staples removed, and a follow-up MRI scan is scheduled for next month.

What did she have to pay for all this health care? Apart from a private consultation (which was an OPTION she took, that funnily enough recommended she continued treatment in the PUBLIC system as they were the ones with better back-up care), the only costs incurred were for parking at the hospital for consultations. Everything else was covered by the PUBLIC health system.

If she was living in the USA instead of New Zealand, she'd be up financial shit creek having to fork out for the costs, or having the stress of wrangling with an insurance company for what they would or wouldn't cover (assuming she WAS covered for such things) along with the inherent stress of dealing with a brain tumour.

I know what system I'd rather live with - and it ain't yours.

 

[Gavrill]

In America, rides from the hospital to a behavioral facility is free, apparently.

 

[lilEmber]

You really do have your head up your arse, don't you? Do you actually do any research, or are you just spouting off preconceptions that the US is automatically better because you say so?

The ambulances in my country - under a public-funded health system, no less - are hardly "rickety wagons of death" as you so carelessly imply. Very modern, up-to-date emergency care is provided - as I can attest to first-hand when a very close friend of mine last year suffered a brain seizure and had to be taken to hospital Accident & Emergency by the local ambulance service. And how much was charged for this service? NOTHING. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Not even a bill in the post afterwards.

And guess what? This same person was diagnosed with a benign brain tumour, which of course had to be removed. She had the standard MRI scans, consultations, was scheduled for cranial surgery in the public health service, and was duly operated on with the tumour removed. Post-op care was scheduled and carried out, staples removed, and a follow-up MRI scan is scheduled for next month.

What did she have to pay for all this health care? Apart from a private consultation (which was an OPTION she took, that funnily enough recommended she continued treatment in the PUBLIC system as they were the ones with better back-up care), the only costs incurred were for parking at the hospital for consultations. Everything else was covered by the PUBLIC health system.

If she was living in the USA instead of New Zealand, she'd be up financial shit creek having to fork out for the costs, or having the stress of wrangling with an insurance company for what they would or wouldn't cover (assuming she WAS covered for such things) along with the inherent stress of dealing with a brain tumour.

I know what system I'd rather live with - and it ain't yours.

All of this.
I wish Canada would get better, actually. We have free health care, but you still have fee's in a lot of things, does any county have free dental? Like, that would be wow.

 

[Mayfurr]

You may be right, universal healthcare may be the solution. But that's beside the point. Point is I don't want universal health care. And until a majority of Americans want it, it's not going to happen. Although, it looks like the tide is turning and I may get swept away. But based on what I've heard, initially our universal healthcare will simply be tax cuts and breaks as well as forced implementation. That wont do anything but piss people off when they get fined for not getting it or are forced to dish out money for something they aren't going to use.

Er, with insurance - any kind of insurance, health or otherwise - aren't you also paying out for something you may not actually use? You may go through life with an insurance policy that you may (hopefully) never need to claim on, but that doesn't stop you buying insurance or it being a good idea.

Not to mention that the premiums you pay into your insurance aren't going into a shoe-box labelled with your name - they're going out to pay on other people's claims. And when you claim, other people's premiums are going to pay for your care.

Think of universal health care as a government-guaranteed not-for-profit medical insurance corporation with 200+ million customers to spread the risk over.

 

[ceacar99]

You really do have your head up your arse, don't you? Do you actually do any research, or are you just spouting off preconceptions that the US is automatically better because you say so?

The ambulances in my country - under a public-funded health system, no less - are hardly "rickety wagons of death" as you so carelessly imply. Very modern, up-to-date emergency care is provided - as I can attest to first-hand when a very close friend of mine last year suffered a brain seizure and had to be taken to hospital Accident & Emergency by the local ambulance service. And how much was charged for this service? NOTHING. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Not even a bill in the post afterwards.

And guess what? This same person was diagnosed with a benign brain tumour, which of course had to be removed. She had the standard MRI scans, consultations, was scheduled for cranial surgery in the public health service, and was duly operated on with the tumour removed. Post-op care was scheduled and carried out, staples removed, and a follow-up MRI scan is scheduled for next month.

What did she have to pay for all this health care? Apart from a private consultation (which was an OPTION she took, that funnily enough recommended she continued treatment in the PUBLIC system as they were the ones with better back-up care), the only costs incurred were for parking at the hospital for consultations. Everything else was covered by the PUBLIC health system.

If she was living in the USA instead of New Zealand, she'd be up financial shit creek having to fork out for the costs, or having the stress of wrangling with an insurance company for what they would or wouldn't cover (assuming she WAS covered for such things) along with the inherent stress of dealing with a brain tumour.

I know what system I'd rather live with - and it ain't yours.

*sigh*.... you still paid for it.......

there are three systems. the american VOLUNTARY insurance system. the compulsory insurance system like in france and germany and the tax run system in canada and britain.

the tax system, such as britain is actually incredibly efficient.... mostly because it has to be, it lives on the most lean diet. one of the reasons why hospitals over britain is experiencing over crowding and they are lagging behind isn't that they are wasteful, but rather the lean funding cannot process as many patients. under this system the government has the most control and regulation essentially telling the hospitals what they have to live on and supplying it with the current taxes.

the next is almost a tax. your supported by a state contracted insurance company. the state just takes money out of your paycheck every month(before you get it) and pays your insurance bill with it. now, it gets into complexities such as certain amounts of funds come from the paycheck itself, and certain amounts are "taxes" on the employer as a percentage of your paycheck. that part will translate to money out of your paycheck anyway.... now, the cost is supplemented by a few other taxes so it isnt quite as substantial. your still insured, its just that the government MAKES you become insured. those earning below a certain line dont pay. so essentially its a system that provides a better form of the american medicaid(medicaid is only accepted in slum hospitals because its so pathetic.)

you know the american system. the all out social system is the lowest cost(8-9% of british gdp), the middle ground is the compulsory (10-11% for france and germany) and the highest is the capitalistic trend (15%). in the compulsory system about 60% of the cost weighs down on paychecks, which costs the employee about 12% of his income. in a sense you can call that system assisted health care, rather then universal health care. taxes on various other things help alleviate what you have to push out of your own pocket but doesnt remove it entirely. however, since its taxes the economy takes the hit, so in that sense "your still paying for it".

now, part of the american problem isnt that we cant afford it, its that we want to spend the money on other things. places like germany pull roughly the same percentage out of the payroll system, its just that they dont show you what your loosing first. where americans get that same money in their pocket, say "well.... i fell pretty healthy, and i do eat right..... so i'll buy a plasma screen tv" and it doesnt go to health insurance. MANY people my age dont have health insurance because they simply dont feel that they need it, or spend their money right away and think they are living more lean then they actually are.

alright i got a story for you since you had to post a "my friend go sick and helped so much!" story. had a friend in high school, cool kid though was way too into pot.... guy rock climbed all the time and had dreads. anyway, he was sick as a dog for weeks and at first the doctors didnt recognize what was wrong. however they finally realized that he had brain cancer and that the pressure was causing his brain to make him feel like he had the worst flu in the world. long story short he made it through it, the total cost was well over a million and the insurance company paid it all without any complaint. his family was a smart one and actually paid into health insurance and got covered right away. no problems and the total cost quite honestly was about the same as if the government taxed their paycheck to a higher degree in one form or another. after all, your still paying the damn bill even if you dont actually read the bill in red lettering every month. $200 a month for a good policy isn't unreasonable, people often pay 150 dollars a month on their damn cell phone bill alone... though the problem there with the "$200 a month" is that quotes on the average cost of american healthcare are all over the board, from 5k annually for families to 12k.....

http://sefora.org/2008/10/17/for-the-record-just-what-is-the-average-cost-of-health-care-insurance/

dont ever think that i dont do my research....

anwyay, as i said before i like my country's system because it puts the most money into health care. it gives it as much money as it needs and helps promote rapid research and development in all manner of health care. the compulsory system allows the same diversity of hospitals, but i believe my system develops new methods and technologies faster.

 

[lilEmber]

You don't pay that much, and if the money isn't used in health it goes to other things, it's a very good system.

 

[Mayfurr]

*sigh*.... you still paid for it.......

Of COURSE I paid for it indirectly through my taxes - I'm talking about "up front" costs at the hospital door.

dont ever think that i dont do my research....

When you come out with ill-informed and asinine comments about publicly-funded ambulances being "rickety wagons of death", it's very hard to assume anything OTHER than typical Yank "not invented here" syndrome.

anwyay, as i said before i like my country's system because it puts the most money into health care. it gives it as much money as it needs and helps promote rapid research and development in all manner of health care. the compulsory system allows the same diversity of hospitals, but i believe my system develops new methods and technologies faster.

Which is all well and good, but if people can't get access to it because either they can't afford it or their insurance doesn't cover it, what good is it? Your country's system may have more money pouring through it than in any other country, but given your country doesn't have the equivalent number one ranking in health indicators (child mortality, average lifespan) there seems to be at least a shitload of WASTAGE inherent in the US system. Which means that you're paying more into your medical insurance than you have to - money that you could spend on something else.

 

[Rostam The Grey]

And the majority does want free health care, actually; why would they not want it, other than attempting to prove some idiotic point, using yourself as an example.

Learn the meaning of free.... First of all, if you're paying for it in taxes, it isn't free. Second, the US doesn't want to start the way it should be done, they want to offer tax breaks and force people to get health insurance. Which I feel is even worse. Granted I already have health insurance. People should have the right to choose whether they want to pay for it or not. Not have it forced on them.

Er, with insurance - any kind of insurance, health or otherwise - aren't you also paying out for something you may not actually use? You may go through life with an insurance policy that you may (hopefully) never need to claim on, but that doesn't stop you buying insurance or it being a good idea.

Not to mention that the premiums you pay into your insurance aren't going into a shoe-box labelled with your name - they're going out to pay on other people's claims. And when you claim, other people's premiums are going to pay for your care.

Think of universal health care as a government-guaranteed not-for-profit medical insurance corporation with 200+ million customers to spread the risk over.

Yes, I understand the concept. But they don't want to do it that way. They want to simply force people to get health insurance and give them a tax break. It's like car insurance. Right now, I have to have car insurance. If I don't have it, they'll take my license away. Shouldn't I have the right to choose whether I have it or not? I understand the concept that it's to protect people I hit, but they could sue me and get the money. I could go my entire life never being in an accident, paying for other people's accidents. But like I said before, I'm not saying I'm right or wrong. I'm saying this is America, and you should have a choice. Not have the decision made for you.

 

[lilEmber]

Learn the meaning of free.... First of all, if you're paying for it in taxes, it isn't free. Second, the US doesn't want to start the way it should be done, they want to offer tax breaks and force people to get health insurance. Which I feel is even worse. Granted I already have health insurance. People should have the right to choose whether they want to pay for it or not. Not have it forced on them.

It is free.
You do not pay for it, and the tax increase doesn't come close to the amount of money you'd spend on regular check-ups and any medical bills, for the average people anyway. And making the people with less money pay lower taxes compared to the people with more money that don't fucking need it pay more, a lot more, equals it out.
You'd barely fucking notice, maybe if Americans would put down the fucking fork they could afford a slightly higher tax increase to benefit the country as a whole and not the snooty fucktards, like yourself.

 

[Mayfurr]

Learn the meaning of free.... First of all, if you're paying for it in taxes, it isn't free.

Yes, but the cost is spread across a far wider base, which means the impact on the individual is less than across a small number of policy-holders under the insurance model.

Second, the US doesn't want to start the way it should be done, they want to offer tax breaks and force people to get health insurance. Which I feel is even worse.

That's probably because of the uproar from the entrenched medical insurance industry et al that would result if he did it properly. Unfortunately, politics is the art of the possible...

Granted I already have health insurance. People should have the right to choose whether they want to pay for it or not. Not have it forced on them.

Unfortunately from what I've read a lot of people in the US don't have that choice in that they can't afford to pay for comprehensive insurance. Which means if anything happens they're up shit creek.

And going back to an earlier point, should you also have the right to opt out of paying the portion of your taxes that goes to your country's military, because you believe your gun collection and Second Amendment rights are sufficient to protect yourself from foreign invaders? After all, currently you're forced to pay for America's war machine whether you like it or not.

It's like car insurance. Right now, I have to have car insurance. If I don't have it, they'll take my license away. Shouldn't I have the right to choose whether I have it or not? I understand the concept that it's to protect people I hit, but they could sue me and get the money.

Gee, you really want to lay yourself open to be sued? In America - the land of the lawyer-raptors?

I could go my entire life never being in an accident, paying for other people's accidents. But like I said before, I'm not saying I'm right or wrong. I'm saying this is America, and you should have a choice. Not have the decision made for you.

All I can say is that people who do have the choice are paying a lot for that privilege, and there are lots of people who have a choice between nothing and nothing - which is really no choice at all.

Or to put it another way: Each year, 101,000 Americans die needlessly so you have the "choice" of whether to have health insurance or not.

 

[lilEmber]

It's not so they can sue you, what if you don't have the money to pay them? They get stuck with medical bills of funeral charges, then what?

What about property damage, or if YOU get killed? THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK.

 

[Werevixen]

I'm pretty alright with Belgium's system of healthcare, where you have to pay your own bills, but a doctor's receipt gets you 85% of the cost refunded by any of the multiple mutual funds in Belgium. Though, I have to say I'd think to like the above systems a little bit more.

And some things, yeah, you could have a choice, but sometimes the government should be able to make a choice for you is the other end of the spectrum is completely fucking retarded. If you implement America's system in Europe, then we're not going to become better in the eyes of thy holy lord Jesus Bob Christ, no, then we're just going to plunge into the same abyss America's in right now, an utter shithole.

 

[ceacar99]

Which is all well and good, but if people can't get access to it because either they can't afford it or their insurance doesn't cover it, what good is it? Your country's system may have more money pouring through it than in any other country, but given your country doesn't have the equivalent number one ranking in health indicators (child mortality, average lifespan) there seems to be at least a shitload of WASTAGE inherent in the US system. Which means that you're paying more into your medical insurance than you have to - money that you could spend on something else.

compared to the european union as a whole we are normal in terms of child mortality, average lifespan and all that. which honestly i can explain those numbers.

in the european union you have plenty of developing areas that drag the average score down on all those areas. in terms of infant mortality rate places like latvia(total: 8.96 deaths/1,000 live births ), lithuania(total: 6.57 deaths/1,000 live births ), and romania (total: 23.73 deaths/1,000 live births ), drastically drag down the fantastic scores of places like france (total: 3.36 deaths/1,000 live births ).

the us doesnt have such conveniant borders. now we DO have some areas like five points colorado that wallow in a culture of violence, poverty and ignorance but those "gangland" areas dont do the brunt of the work. our OFFICIAL immigration rate is three times that of france. see, while the european union has the burden of developing member states to bring up to standard, the us has a constant influx of poor people that it must educate and bring
up out of poverty. sometimes that takes more then one generation to do. a great deal of the negative trend is that some people, or often more accurately some AREAS cannot afford quality health care. note that i said quality, because in the us you still have medicaid, which despite the amount of money the us pours into it still makes slum hospitals and clinics.

now while looking up all these numbers on the cia factbook(i use it a lot for things like this because its an easy accurate resource) i found something interesting....

us death rate: 8.27 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)
french death rate: 8.48 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)
uk death rate: 10.05 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)
germany death rate: 10.8 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)
canada death rate: 7.61 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)

out of all the countries posted, the ONLY one to beat the united states in death rate was canada. so, if the french, german, and the british systems are that much better why are they dieing at a higher rate then we are? you've pulled up "preventable deseases" but i'm pulling up the overall picture here. now canada actually seems to be the exception to the various socialized health care systems.

oh ya, we have a "third world" medical system, even though in terms of the final statistic we are second best.....

in that they can't afford to pay for comprehensive insurance.

the majority of which could afford health insurance if they could be separated from their cell phone, brand new car and cable tv.....