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America Vs Europe

Mayfurr

Mostly Harmless
now while looking up all these [infant mortality] numbers on the cia factbook(i use it a lot for things like this because its an easy accurate resource) i found something interesting....

us death rate: 8.27 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)
french death rate: 8.48 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)
uk death rate: 10.05 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)
germany death rate: 10.8 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)
canada death rate: 7.61 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.)

out of all the countries posted, the ONLY one to beat the united states in death rate was canada. so, if the french, german, and the british systems are that much better why are they dieing at a higher rate then we are?

Your conclusion is wrong because the CIA estimate is inaccurate - here's actual numbers:

Nationmaster - Infant Mortality (Total) Most Recent (2008 )

#185 United States: 6.30 deaths/1,000 live births
#186 Cuba: 5.93 deaths/1,000 live births
#194 Canada: 5.08 deaths/1,000 live births
#196 New Zealand: 4.99 deaths/1,000 live births
#197 United Kingdom: 4.93 deaths/1,000 live births
#200 Australia: 4.82 deaths/1,000 live births
#201 Netherlands: 4.81 deaths/1,000 live births
#205 Belgium: 4.50 deaths/1,000 live births
#213 Germany: 4.03 deaths/1,000 live births
#220 France: 3.36 deaths/1,000 live births

Never mind France, Germany, and Australasia - infants in Cuba (you know, that tin-pot Caribbean country the US has been embargoing the shit out of for over forty years) have a slightly better chance at surviving than in the US...!

The US is doing better than American Samoa, Puerto Rico, Guam, and Saudi Arabia though...

the majority of which could afford health insurance if they could be separated from their cell phone, brand new car and cable tv.....

That's a pretty... convenient assumption to make, isn't it? Absolves you of actually giving a damn by allowing you to blame the victim - or more correctly, a convenient stereotype. Wonderful.

Y'know, I'm getting the distinct impression that Americans are a pretty self-centred mercenary bunch, and that the reputation of them being kind and generous types is actually way off the mark...
 

ceacar99

behold my boomstick!
no, i posted death rate, not infant mortality rate. keep in mind that infant mortality contributes to the death rate. as i said, death rate is THE defining statistic about a health care system. the less people dieing the better the people are taken care of right?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_dea_rat-people-death-rate
8.27 deaths/1,000 population(united states)

my stats were on target..... so i was right, in terms of the death rate amongst the major powers in the western block canada is the only one that beats the united states. which demonstrates that our doctors do a pretty good job of patching together the steriotypical american that "tries to eat and drink himself to death and shoots everyone who tries to stop him".

That's a pretty... convenient assumption to make, isn't it? Absolves you of actually giving a damn by allowing you to blame the victim - or more correctly, a convenient stereotype. Wonderful.

Y'know, I'm getting the distinct impression that Americans are a pretty self-centred mercenary bunch, and that the reputation of them being kind and generous types is actually way off the mark...

i'm sorry, i dont want to pay for your damn knee surgery. its my money, i worked for it and i dont want it going to something that will NEVER benifit me. the roads, that helps me. the police, that helps me. paying for the knee surgery of someone i will never meet? nope, not on the top of my list. maybe if i become rich i'll get into philanthropy but right now i fucking work for a living.

so i went and got a set of quotes on health insurance, chose the lowest deductable and this is what came up.



you losers pay that much for your damn cell phone bill. its not an unreasonable expense. once you get the plan cooking(as in covered the deductible) there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to afford health care for yourself unless your living on nothing but food stamps and welfare. see, people like me think its inexcusable for working people to claim that they cannot afford that. people frit that amount of money away like its nothing and then when it comes down to the line they claim bullshit that "i cant afford health insurance", when in reality its their damn choice to have more luxuries instead of having health insurance coverage.

alright, the hsa 100 plan on that list would cost me 1,688 annually. according to
http://www.medhunters.com/articles/healthcareInGermany.html
the average german spends about 14% of his income on healthcare. now lets say i was a german making a rather low amount, 25,000 a year. i'd be putting 3500 dollars into the system for my health care annually.

the situation in germany and france is not quite so cut and dry however. because the employer and the employee both donate a percentage of the value of the paycheck of the employee to heatlh insurance it is harder to pick an absolute number of how much money the employee is loosing per year for health care. sure, you could count it just as that 14%, but your forgetting that the employer is going to adjust the employees paycheck to deal with the cost of health insurance. in other words, the employee is getting paid less because the employer has to pay for health insurance, thus that cost is coming out of the employees paycheck too, though because of mathematical dynamics it isnt quite as substantial a sum as if it were to outright be pulled out of the paycheck.

in other words, i can pay for my heatlh insurance here for CHEAPER then germany(which often claims it has the best health care in europe). wow, i didnt realize that until today....
 

Werevixen

This is my new rapeface.
i'm sorry, i dont want to pay for your damn knee surgery. its my money, i worked for it and i dont want it going to something that will NEVER benifit me. the roads, that helps me. the police, that helps me. paying for the knee surgery of someone i will never meet? nope, not on the top of my list. maybe if i become rich i'll get into philanthropy but right now i fucking work for a living.


And this is why we sharing, (health)caring Europeans get the impressions all Americans are assholes. Thanks to people like you.


Fuck the common good right? You have you to think about!
 

Mayfurr

Mostly Harmless
no, i posted death rate, not infant mortality rate. keep in mind that infant mortality contributes to the death rate. as i said, death rate is THE defining statistic about a health care system. the less people dieing the better the people are taken care of right?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_dea_rat-people-death-rate
8.27 deaths/1,000 population(united states)

my stats were on target..... so i was right, in terms of the death rate amongst the major powers in the western block canada is the only one that beats the united states. which demonstrates that our doctors do a pretty good job of patching together the steriotypical american that "tries to eat and drink himself to death and shoots everyone who tries to stop him".

However, using the SAME statistics from your link:

#106 United States: 8.27 deaths/1,000 population
#116 Ireland: 7.77 deaths/1,000 population
#120 Canada: 7.61 deaths/1,000 population
#127 Korea, North: 7.29 deaths/1,000 population
#128 Cuba: 7.19 deaths/1,000 population
#130 China: 7.03 deaths/1,000 population
#131 New Zealand: 7 deaths/1,000 population
#134 Papua New Guinea: 6.96 deaths/1,000 population
#140 Australia: 6.68 deaths/1,000 population

Your claim that the overall death rate of the US justifies your free-market health care system compared to other countries is rather undermined by the fact that New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, and even North Korea, China and Cuba have lower death rates than the United States. Care to try again?

(I am rather surprised that Papua New Guinea beats both our countries though... I wonder what they're doing right?)

And Australia and New Zealand AREN'T "part of the Western bloc"? (Yeah, I know, anyone outside of Europe and North America doesn't count...)

i'm sorry, i dont want to pay for your damn knee surgery. its my money, i worked for it and i dont want it going to something that will NEVER benifit me. the roads, that helps me. the police, that helps me. paying for the knee surgery of someone i will never meet?

Have you considered that the "someone you'll never meet" might be a customer of the business you work for? Might be a shareholder? Might be wanting to buy a product or service of your company but can't because they have to fork out over the odds for surgery instead? Someone who supports someone else that might patronise your business?
Someone who pays into the same healthcare plan as you that indirectly supports YOU when YOU are ill?

Just because you can't see them doesn't mean there's no benefit to you.
 

ceacar99

behold my boomstick!
Your claim that the overall death rate of the US justifies your free-market health care system compared to other countries is rather undermined by the fact that New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, and even North Korea, China and Cuba have lower death rates than the United States. Care to try again?

well, if it shows the ability of the health care systems then it shows that the major powers on the western block dont have quite as effective health care as other countries. buuuut yknow i'm mostly surprised that you simply didnt try to poke holes in that simple arguement i made above instead of saying the us is worse then poor ol north korea.

really, as your starting to see, the little tidbit stats really dont matter as much as you would think. infant mortality in the us is higher then france, but our death rate is lower. part of it is the sheer wave of factors that create the numbers, not just the health care. such as the preventable diseases in the us being highly influenced by not wanting to visit a doctor for various reasons and our horrid diet.


Have you considered that the "someone you'll never meet" might be a customer of the business you work for? Might be a shareholder? Might be wanting to buy a product or service of your company but can't because they have to fork out over the odds for surgery instead? Someone who supports someone else that might patronise your business?
Someone who pays into the same healthcare plan as you that indirectly supports YOU when YOU are ill?

Just because you can't see them doesn't mean there's no benefit to you.

health care is a basic need. so am i expected to clothe them, feed them and put a roof over their heads as well? i demonstrated that CLEARLY health insurance is not as expensive as people claim. so, while i work all day and deal with rather stupid shit to earn my keep someone else is allowed to lay on their ass and get what they need by doing nothing but appear pathetic? am i supposed to be content with that shit? the sad truth is that people do that anyway, its called food stamps, welfare and medicaid....

its not that i'm not kind, or generous its that its wrong to expect some people to work for everyone else. the reason why a german who makes a rather low salary(the 25k a year posted above) will pay pretty much twice what i do into the system is that he has to pay for all the damn leaches that are not working for their keep. honestly there is a difference between social safety nets and a system that burdens those who do honest work with those who have figured out how to lay around and do absolutely nothing.

no i dont want to pay for your god damn knee surgery because you should have been working just like me. you needing me to pay for your knee surgery in all likelihood means your just laying on your pathetic ass all day instead of having worked for a living before whatever accident that made you need the surgery.
 
It is free.
You do not pay for it, and the tax increase doesn't come close to the amount of money you'd spend on regular check-ups and any medical bills, for the average people anyway. And making the people with less money pay lower taxes compared to the people with more money that don't fucking need it pay more, a lot more, equals it out.
You'd barely fucking notice, maybe if Americans would put down the fucking fork they could afford a slightly higher tax increase to benefit the country as a whole and not the snooty fucktards, like yourself.

You say it is free, then you say I wouldn't notice the cost.... Which is it? Like I said, it's not free. And I'm not snooty, I just believe in less government. Less government is what has made this country such a great country from the start. And now as government grows, we start going down the crapper.... You figure it out...

PS: Where did tax rates come from? We weren't even discussing that. But now that you bring it up. I believe in the flat tax. Which means everyone pays the same rate. Still means people who spend more pay more. No deductions...

PSS: Do you normally win arguments by spewing foul language and insults? Because it appears that's the only way you know how to discuss something...

Yes, but the cost is spread across a far wider base, which means the impact on the individual is less than across a small number of policy-holders under the insurance model.

I understand this. I'm just more into choice as opposed to forced entry.

That's probably because of the uproar from the entrenched medical insurance industry et al that would result if he did it properly. Unfortunately, politics is the art of the possible...

Agreed, though I would say voters are playing a role in this also, because it's not a majority want at the moment.

Unfortunately from what I've read a lot of people in the US don't have that choice in that they can't afford to pay for comprehensive insurance. Which means if anything happens they're up shit creek.

Though I know this is going to bring a rant from someone about how I'm hating on the poor, even though most of my family is poor, I was been poor and know what it's like, and I'm not rich now... Let's define a life-worthy job as a job which you work and expect to make a living and possibly support a family from the pay.

If you have a 'life-worthy job' in the US you are either offered health insurance through your company or can afford to pay it yourself. You should not expect to make a career flipping burgers at Burger King. If you are 30 and flipping burgers, perhaps it's time to look at the possibilities and see what you can do to get high wages, such as construction, truck driving, etc. Maybe getting a student loan, as I did, and getting an education to pull yourself out of the hole. No one is above help and being poor is not an excuse. If anything, being poor should give you the initiative to want to get better. Have you ever heard a poor person tell their children they hope they are poorer than them when they grow up. Or I want you to be a janitor when you grow up.

And going back to an earlier point, should you also have the right to opt out of paying the portion of your taxes that goes to your country's military, because you believe your gun collection and Second Amendment rights are sufficient to protect yourself from foreign invaders? After all, currently you're forced to pay for America's war machine whether you like it or not.

No, military is something I cannot provide for myself. I can't protect my house from China if they decided to invade it.

Gee, you really want to lay yourself open to be sued? In America - the land of the lawyer-raptors? :)

Not really, that's not my point. The point is I make the decision on whether I will be covered or not. And I can still be sued even with insurance.

All I can say is that people who do have the choice are paying a lot for that privilege, and there are lots of people who have a choice between nothing and nothing - which is really no choice at all.

Or to put it another way: Each year, 101,000 Americans die needlessly so you have the "choice" of whether to have health insurance or not.

What's to say they wouldn't die if they had it. Like I said before, people I know who can go to the doctor for free, don't because they don't want to. They wait till the last possible second when they are forced to go. And Americans are lazy, look at the obesity stats for us. We eat all the wrong foods and watch too much TV. I believe this contributes to our -2 years on the LE scale.

It's not so they can sue you, what if you don't have the money to pay them? They get stuck with medical bills of funeral charges, then what?

What about property damage, or if YOU get killed? THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK.

I am thinking. I know the purpose. I'm just more inclined to self responsibility and less inclined to forced responsibility.
 
Almost forgot, our high crime rate also contributes to our -2 years.
 

Mayfurr

Mostly Harmless
so, while i work all day and deal with rather stupid shit to earn my keep someone else is allowed to lay on their ass and get what they need by doing nothing but appear pathetic? am i supposed to be content with that shit? the sad truth is that people do that anyway, its called food stamps, welfare and medicaid....
[...]
no i dont want to pay for your god damn knee surgery because you should have been working just like me. you needing me to pay for your knee surgery in all likelihood means your just laying on your pathetic ass all day instead of having worked for a living before whatever accident that made you need the surgery.

God, you are pathetic. You assume anyone who is in strife and can't pay their own way is a lazy-arse?
Perhaps they were working their arse off on minimum wage to feed their family and putting food on the table today was a higher priority?
Perhaps through no fault of their own they got laid off in an area with high unemployment where THEY CAN'T IMMEDIATELY GET ANOTHER JOB?
Perhaps all their savings and so forth were wiped out by arseholes like Bernard "$50 billion Ponzi scheme" Madoff?

But no, you're so intellectually lazy and dismissive you'd automatically tag someone worse off than yourself as being lazy and therefore worthless. Because then you can stand on your high horse looking down your nose at those less fortunate than yourself and pat yourself on the back "Aren't I clever to not be like them?"

You better hope that nothing knocks you off that high horse of yours, because it's a long fall to the ground.

By the way, if you really don't want to pay for anyone else's healthcare then I suggest you immediately cancel your own health insurance and funnel your health insurance premiums into a bank account instead - or better still, a shoe-box under your bed - because under ANY insurance business YOUR premiums are going to fund OTHER people's claims. And while you're at it, hire your own PERSONAL protection to replace the collective police and military protection you're funding through your taxes, because HEAVEN FORBID your tax money goes to protect those who are "laying on their pathetic ass all day instead of having worked for a living"...
 

Mayfurr

Mostly Harmless
Though I know this is going to bring a rant from someone about how I'm hating on the poor, even though most of my family is poor, I was been poor and know what it's like, and I'm not rich now... Let's define a life-worthy job as a job which you work and expect to make a living and possibly support a family from the pay.

If you have a 'life-worthy job' in the US you are either offered health insurance through your company or can afford to pay it yourself. You should not expect to make a career flipping burgers at Burger King. If you are 30 and flipping burgers, perhaps it's time to look at the possibilities and see what you can do to get high wages, such as construction, truck driving, etc. Maybe getting a student loan, as I did, and getting an education to pull yourself out of the hole.

I understand, but that does assume that there are sufficient "life-worthy" jobs available for everyone who wants one to get one. Yes, there are opportunities for advancement, but especially in today's economic climate where companies are laying off staff more than hiring, it seems that if you don't have a "life-worthy" job you're screwed. At best, you'd be having to take on multiple jobs which leave you LESS time for self-improvement or time with your family (if you have one), and at worst you start sliding downhill to the point where you're expending ALL your energy just to stand still with nothing left for advancement.

And what about solo parents who have to decide between getting a job to support themselves, or looking after their kids? They're not all from the "got knocked up in school" brigade - they could be on the wrong side of a divorce, or widowed. Heck, my next-door neighbour is having to raise her grandchild on her own due to family issues...

No one is above help and being poor is not an excuse. If anything, being poor should give you the initiative to want to get better. Have you ever heard a poor person tell their children they hope they are poorer than them when they grow up. Or I want you to be a janitor when you grow up.

Having initiative and incentive is one thing and is all well and good, but it becomes somewhat meaningless without opportunity to go with it.

Listen, I've also made my way through life and I've never been on welfare - even when I did get laid off from a job several years ago - and I definitely don't want to be on the dole from a point of pride. BUT, what that experience taught me is that sometimes despite your best efforts circumstances CAN turn against you, and it can be bloody hard to try and get back on your feet if you're having to manage responsibilities to your family etc. at the same time.
Yes, I had the opportunity to go on training courses to upskill myself, but of course they cost money - so you have to decide "Do I spend this now in the hope it will get me a job? Or do I use this money to keep the household going and put food on the table for X more weeks while I keep looking for something in my current line of work?" I'm sure you know from your experience that these choices are not easy ones.

No, military is something I cannot provide for myself. I can't protect my house from China if they decided to invade it.

That is true. BUT, your justification is that "you can't afford" to protect your house from China - well, what's the difference between that and someone saying "they can't afford healthcare"? If you say, "Oh, they should be able to afford it", then what's to stop that being used against you when it comes to defence? After all, to someone on the bones of their arse a health-insurance premium may as well be the cost of a private aircraft-carrier...

I watched part of a "Larry King Live" interview on CNN the other day with former President Clinton, and he made the point that European competitors with the US spent less on healthcare with their publicly-funded systems than the US did with its private system, which gives them an economic advantage as the money they're not overspending on healthcare can be spent on business initiatives as opposed to simply trying to keep their citizens healthy.

To be honest, if the US wants to hobble itself with an inefficient health system that is its business, BUT I strongly object when people arguing against the kind of health system I have in MY country are making crap out of thin air to justify their position (the "rickety wagons of death" line for public ambulances from ceacar99 is a case in point).

Like I said before, people I know who can go to the doctor for free, don't because they don't want to. They wait till the last possible second when they are forced to go.

Yes, that is a possibility, but to be honest I rather doubt that mentality is restricted exclusively to Americans - who really likes going to the doctor if they feel they don't have to? :-(
 

lilEmber

Small Dragon
This is hilarious. Either way, the US isn't comparable to a entire continent made up of some of the best countries in the world.

If we picked -one- country in Europe, then it'd be more fair; the USA would still probably lose.
 
I understand, but that does assume that there are sufficient "life-worthy" jobs available for everyone who wants one to get one. Yes, there are opportunities for advancement, but especially in today's economic climate where companies are laying off staff more than hiring, it seems that if you don't have a "life-worthy" job you're screwed. At best, you'd be having to take on multiple jobs which leave you LESS time for self-improvement or time with your family (if you have one), and at worst you start sliding downhill to the point where you're expending ALL your energy just to stand still with nothing left for advancement.

Were I to loose one of my 2 jobs, I would look for another, or take one of the 2 jobs I have been offered recently. If I could not get a job in my field I would change fields. Either switching to a field that I am already qualified to work in or moving to a 'life-worthy' area that requires no experience. Were that not available I would find a field that would work and that I feel I could learn and return to college to learn it. Probably taking a non-'life-worthy' job on the side and using a student loan. I just don't see how a non-disabled person can make any excuse not to be able to get a decent job... Even with children there is daycare. And saying you loose time with your children if they are in daycare is an excuse. You have to do what you have to do to support your family. It's been only recently (within the last 50-60 years) that parents and children have had the time to spend with each other that they do. Because until recently, people were working constantly to survive and children were expected to work also.

And what about solo parents who have to decide between getting a job to support themselves, or looking after their kids? They're not all from the "got knocked up in school" brigade - they could be on the wrong side of a divorce, or widowed. Heck, my next-door neighbour is having to raise her grandchild on her own due to family issues...

Explained above, children should not be used as an excuse.

Having initiative and incentive is one thing and is all well and good, but it becomes somewhat meaningless without opportunity to go with it.

Listen, I've also made my way through life and I've never been on welfare - even when I did get laid off from a job several years ago - and I definitely don't want to be on the dole from a point of pride. BUT, what that experience taught me is that sometimes despite your best efforts circumstances CAN turn against you, and it can be bloody hard to try and get back on your feet if you're having to manage responsibilities to your family etc. at the same time.
Yes, I had the opportunity to go on training courses to upskill myself, but of course they cost money - so you have to decide "Do I spend this now in the hope it will get me a job? Or do I use this money to keep the household going and put food on the table for X more weeks while I keep looking for something in my current line of work?" I'm sure you know from your experience that these choices are not easy ones.

I've had to live on student loans before, I know sometimes life can throw you a curve. As a child my mother lived on welfare. But that was because she didn't want to get a good paying job. Even now she works at a job making minimum wage, complains she doesn't have enough money, but when I tell her about openings she could work at my company that would pay her 3 times more money and have benefits she doesn't want to hear it for one reason or another. "I don't want to do that", "I can't do that".... How do you know unless you try, and I don't want to is just not an excuse I'm willing to accept. A lot of people, myself included, have had to do things they didn't want to to survive.

That is true. BUT, your justification is that "you can't afford" to protect your house from China - well, what's the difference between that and someone saying "they can't afford healthcare"? If you say, "Oh, they should be able to afford it", then what's to stop that being used against you when it comes to defence? After all, to someone on the bones of their arse a health-insurance premium may as well be the cost of a private aircraft-carrier...

But to protect myself from China I would need more than a carrier. I would need a military with soldiers. One person cannot fund that. Not even Bill Gates could raise an army to protect himself from China.

I watched part of a "Larry King Live" interview on CNN the other day with former President Clinton, and he made the point that European competitors with the US spent less on healthcare with their publicly-funded systems than the US did with its private system, which gives them an economic advantage as the money they're not overspending on healthcare can be spent on business initiatives as opposed to simply trying to keep their citizens healthy.

To be honest, if the US wants to hobble itself with an inefficient health system that is its business, BUT I strongly object when people arguing against the kind of health system I have in MY country are making crap out of thin air to justify their position (the "rickety wagons of death" line for public ambulances from ceacar99 is a case in point).

I'm sorry, what crap have I made out of thin air?

Yes, that is a possibility, but to be honest I rather doubt that mentality is restricted exclusively to Americans - who really likes going to the doctor if they feel they don't have to? :-(

True, but Americans are extremely lazy and unhealthy also. With a high crime rate.

This is hilarious. Either way, the US isn't comparable to a entire continent made up of some of the best countries in the world.

If we picked -one- country in Europe, then it'd be more fair; the USA would still probably lose.

You are entitled to your opinion.... Why is no one else?
 

lilEmber

Small Dragon
Because it -really- isn't better than these countries. You might -think- it's better or prefer it, doesn't make it better magically in the grand scheme of things.
 

ceacar99

behold my boomstick!
God, you are pathetic. You assume anyone who is in strife and can't pay their own way is a lazy-arse?
Perhaps they were working their arse off on minimum wage to feed their family and putting food on the table today was a higher priority?
Perhaps through no fault of their own they got laid off in an area with high unemployment where THEY CAN'T IMMEDIATELY GET ANOTHER JOB?
Perhaps all their savings and so forth were wiped out by arseholes like Bernard "$50 billion Ponzi scheme" Madoff?

its called you have to do what you fuckin have to do. i'm on my knees sucking uncle sam's cock every day so that i can further my goals in life. i detest the work environment i'm in right now, i detest my peers, i hate almost every last damn thing about it save for the fact that i work with firearms every day. yet no matter how much i regret the decision i know it will get me closer to where i want to fucking be when my contract ends.

rostram put it in a much more polite way, but thats the fact. you do what you have to do. though he probably doesnt think about that quite the same way as me. see, i am of the school that strife can generate growth, productivity and progress. if i just start handing out money to every hardship case of "oh noes, i got laid off and spent all my money on financial hookers! now i cant pay for my knee surgery!" then all sorts of people are going to figure out that they can quit their job, make up some bullshit and get by for free. happens all the damn time actually.

see there's the thing. i dont want to promote a bullshit state of entitlement. we already have too much of that. too many people feeling entitled because they've hit a rough spot, too many of those entitled feeling people claiming that you really cant make it anymore and you need to steal from others to get by. too few people actually getting up and doing what they have to do, instead of stealing from others.

now the thing is, that most people do what they have to do, and get by just fine. and yes, you have a few real honest to god hardship cases and then you got the people stealing from others via the ballot box. they dont live lives with lots of luxery but they get by on other people's money when they should be working, struggling and finding a way.

necessity is the mother of invention. well, if we remove necessity then what will spawn invention?

By the way, if you really don't want to pay for anyone else's healthcare then I suggest you immediately cancel your own health insurance and funnel your health insurance premiums into a bank account instead

um.... everyone else is paying their dues in that system. there are no leaches, just people paying for a service.

and yknow, i already covered the cops, the roads, the military and all that.....
 
Because it -really- isn't better than these countries. You might -think- it's better or prefer it, doesn't make it better magically in the grand scheme of things.

Just as you may -think- it's not, but that doesn't make it so. Opinions are not fact.
 
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