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"Canid - Vulpine"?!?

Timmy Fox

The Royal Cutefox
I'm darn tired of the "vulpine" term being used incorrectly... It refers to the "Vulpes" genus which is the main such that holds most breeds of foxes but isn't the definitive term for the entire species.

I noticed this the other day when my mate, an arctic fox (Alopex Lagopus), was gonna submit some new artwork and asked me for help as he couldn't find "fox" in the dropdown list for species, all we found was "vulpine" which, as said, is inaccurate for a few breeds of foxes, including the arctic fox, culpeo (lycalopex culpaeus) and Darwin's fox (Lycalopex fulvipes). We ended up having to use the "Canid - Other" label which isn't inaccurate but is unspecific.

I believe that the "Canid - Vulpes" label should be changed to "Canid - Fox".
 

Verin Asper

The Smart Idiot
...
huh weird cause the arctic fox is Vulpes Lagopus but a synonym name of them IS Alopex Lagopus...
which technically mean either or can be used to point to the Arctic fox...

If anything we could go down the road of just acknowledging the two tribes the Canidae being Canini and Vulpini

which is funny as those two foxes you mention are oddly under the Canini tribe than Vulpini tribe, I need to look into this more but going down the road FA picked wasnt a smart one overall cause furries don't realize the Maned wolf isnt a damn wolf in other words "furries aren't that bright"
 
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Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
Darwin's fox is a dog, not a true fox. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycalopex
It merely happens to look like a fox. [but the term 'vulpine' is not cladistic anyway- it simply means 'to be like a fox']

The arctic fox, as previously mentioned, belongs to the genus Vulpes.

I believe the current taxonomy employed in FA is a hodgepodge of different taxonomic systems as well as some folk taxonomy. [for example 'primate-monkey' should arguably include humans, not be discreet from them], so there are lots of paraphyletic groups in the FA taxonomy.

...but it's a taxonomic system which includes dragons and unicorns, so perhaps realism isn't too concerning.
 

Timmy Fox

The Royal Cutefox
As far as I know, the arctic fox can be referred to with either Alopex or Vulpes. Due to historical reasons, the arctic fox has been called Alopex Lagopus until very recently when it was reclassified under Vulpes to match the genetic similarities.

The difference between these genuses is that Vulpes is the genus of the "true" foxes whereas Alopex more literally means fox.

As for the Darwin's fox and Culpeo fox, neither are genetically related to the vulpini tribe nor vulpes-genus foxes, but their genus, Lycalopex or sometimes also called Pseudalopex, literally means "Wolf-fox" or "Fake fox" respectively. So they are not actual foxes genetically but they are still called foxes due to their aesthetical similarities.

Another thing I noticed also; Foxes are the only canine species that are listed with such a contextually bad term as vulpine. Everything else is using the simple terms like "wolf" or "dog". There even is a "doberman" category that is separate from the "dog" category, WTF?
---

I suppose I'm bit biased also because I personally dislike the the term "Vulpine" as it just causes a lot of confusion and is usually misinterpreted. I've seen several people incorrectly make the claim that "canine" must be wolves and dogs (Canis) because foxes are vulpines. No, that's not correct; Vulpine refers to the main genus of foxes and thus are still canines because canine refers to the whole canidae family.
 

Verin Asper

The Smart Idiot
As far as I know, the arctic fox can be referred to with either Alopex or Vulpes. Due to historical reasons, the arctic fox has been called Alopex Lagopus until very recently when it was reclassified under Vulpes to match the genetic similarities.

The difference between these genuses is that Vulpes is the genus of the "true" foxes whereas Alopex more literally means fox.

As for the Darwin's fox and Culpeo fox, neither are genetically related to the vulpini tribe nor vulpes-genus foxes, but their genus, Lycalopex or sometimes also called Pseudalopex, literally means "Wolf-fox" or "Fake fox" respectively. So they are not actual foxes genetically but they are still called foxes due to their aesthetical similarities.

Another thing I noticed also; Foxes are the only canine species that are listed with such a contextually bad term as vulpine. Everything else is using the simple terms like "wolf" or "dog". There even is a "doberman" category that is separate from the "dog" category, WTF?
---

I suppose I'm bit biased also because I personally dislike the the term "Vulpine" as it just causes a lot of confusion and is usually misinterpreted. I've seen several people incorrectly make the claim that "canine" must be wolves and dogs (Canis) because foxes are vulpines. No, that's not correct; Vulpine refers to the main genus of foxes and thus are still canines because canine refers to the whole canidae family.

The reason why we also have specific dogs is cause people wanted to be special snowflakes and asked/demanded that their specific breed of dog was on that list. in the end I still support the idea of using the tribes Canini and Vulpini to denote between the two groups, but furries aren't that smart so I rather would rather have the whole species list removed cause fuck it, they can tag their species instead...like other sites do.
 

Tica

Lady Sloth
FA is never going to change the dropdown because whenever they update the site they're getting rid of it completely and going just to tags.

"sloth" isn't even ON the dropdown; closest thing is "Mammal - other" so...
 

Trpdwarf

Lurking in Castle Moats
I am not certain that taxonomy was taken into consideration when this old drop down was initially created. The names used likely reflected what furries were most likely to use/recognize. Of course now we have so many more species being used back then, some of which are quite unusual and outside of our community are even not well known. Try asking the general public about a maned wolf, and they'll have no idea what you are talking about. At some point we have to sit down and realize that we can't keep adding in because that's not an appropriate fix to the flaws of that old system. When the new update happens a better system will be implemented.

EDIT: OP I totally agree how silly the term "Vulpine" is in the drop down. It may simply have been back then a good way to separate it out from canine to something furries would recognize.
 
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Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
A cladistic classification could be used, [which would exclude darwin's fox, and other fake foxes from the Clade Vulpini] but this would have to be updated occasionally and would be very extensive and confusing for users, because lots of things which look similar are actually not closely related to one another.
[for example the Tenrec, which looks like a hedgehog but is more closely related to elephants]

For want of a better term you could just have 'foxy' as the category, because obviously most users aren't going to know the difference between ancestral relationships and convergent evolution.

Vulpine essentially does that anyway, because it's not a Clade name.
 

Timmy Fox

The Royal Cutefox
I am not certain that taxonomy was taken into consideration when this old drop down was initially created. The names used likely reflected what furries were most likely to use/recognize. Of course now we have so many more species being used back then, some of which are quite unusual and outside of our community are even not well known. Try asking the general public about a maned wolf, and they'll have no idea what you are talking about. At some point we have to sit down and realize that we can't keep adding in because that's not an appropriate fix to the flaws of that old system. When the new update happens a better system will be implemented.
I understand what you mean, and I do agree, but my point is more that I think it's better to just write "Fox" rather than "Vulpine" as, just with your example about the maned wolf, I'm sure more people knows what a fox is and it is a more broad term that fills the gap that's been made by using the more vaguely used term vulpine which, to my understanding, is a relatively new and less established.

Guess I'll just have to wait until the update arrives..
 

Verin Asper

The Smart Idiot
I am not certain that taxonomy was taken into consideration when this old drop down was initially created. The names used likely reflected what furries were most likely to use/recognize. Of course now we have so many more species being used back then, some of which are quite unusual and outside of our community are even not well known. Try asking the general public about a maned wolf, and they'll have no idea what you are talking about. At some point we have to sit down and realize that we can't keep adding in because that's not an appropriate fix to the flaws of that old system. When the new update happens a better system will be implemented.

EDIT: OP I totally agree how silly the term "Vulpine" is in the drop down. It may simply have been back then a good way to separate it out from canine to something furries would recognize.
which is weird cause FA for a while continued to add species even though a very old post on here explained that "no more species gonna be added cause we doing away with the system in the future, but I still see people demanding that their species should be added to which I still go. "Whats the damn point when you win this to only have it removed?" Though I just guess those people are thinking about the now, not much of whats gonna happen in the future.

On Vulpine its probably true to the OP, people know Fox moreso than Vulpine, just I'll still (mentally) smack a fur for putting a Maned wolf under wolf :V
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
The sooner the better or else FA risks a written rebuke by the International Union of Biological Sciences.

Bunnies, part of the subby genus
Otters, part of the swimwear genus
Kangaroos, part of the...upside down balls genus?
 

Stratelier

Well-Known Member
they can tag their species instead...like other sites do.
But in the current system, tags/keywords are only applicable to the Search page.

If they retain something (visually) similar to the current Browse page with dropdown list of tags (basically being a pseudo-search filter) then I can support that. It would, for one, solve the problem of needing 'multiple/other' items in the list.
 

Verin Asper

The Smart Idiot
But in the current system, tags/keywords are only applicable to the Search page.

If they retain something (visually) similar to the current Browse page with dropdown list of tags (basically being a pseudo-search filter) then I can support that. It would, for one, solve the problem of needing 'multiple/other' items in the list.
...
Too bad the WHOLE SYSTEM is being redone
To be JUST like the other sites, you know those sites where the person puts in the tags themselves.
On top of that FA's browse system is a second search system, thats actually better than the ACTUAL search system (who the hell makes a search system where you cant go back?)
 

Avlenna

Shadow of the Night
FA is never going to change the dropdown because whenever they update the site they're getting rid of it completely and going just to tags.

"sloth" isn't even ON the dropdown; closest thing is "Mammal - other" so...

Wait, sloth isn't on there?! What the actual fuck? Do they at least have anything like suborder or order?! That's just silly that they wouldn't have sloths; I mean come on.
 

Tica

Lady Sloth
Wait, sloth isn't on there?! What the actual fuck? Do they at least have anything like suborder or order?! That's just silly that they wouldn't have sloths; I mean come on.

Nope. Sloths, anteaters, and armadillos are all in the order "xenarthra" but none of them made it to the FA listing.
 

PheagleAdler

Well-Known Member
What the hell IS a maned wolf anyway. And who's the asshole who called it a wolf when it isn't?
 

thoron

Member
FA is never going to change the dropdown because whenever they update the site they're getting rid of it completely and going just to tags.

Why on Earth would they get rid of the dropdowns? It makes general browsing so easy. I personally think a system employing both together would be best.
 

Stratelier

Well-Known Member
...
Too bad the WHOLE SYSTEM is being redone
To be JUST like the other sites, you know those sites where the person puts in the tags themselves.
On top of that FA's browse system is a second search system, thats actually better than the ACTUAL search system (who the hell makes a search system where you cant go back?)

Who the hell uses POST queries for readonly operations? Oh, that's right, FA.
 

Avlenna

Shadow of the Night
Nope. Sloths, anteaters, and armadillos are all in the order "xenarthra" but none of them made it to the FA listing.

That's preposterous! I am now outraged for you on this one. :mad:

What the hell IS a maned wolf anyway. And who's the asshole who called it a wolf when it isn't?


Maned wolf (Chrysocyon brachyurus) is a canine under the Chrysocyon genus. These animals have no living relatives; studies have shown that these animals were closely related to the Falkland Island wolf, its mainland relative, and the extinct genus Dusicyon.

Thanks Wiki! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maned_wolf
 

Verin Asper

The Smart Idiot
Why on Earth would they get rid of the dropdowns? It makes general browsing so easy. I personally think a system employing both together would be best.
Cause everyone else does
Note that the Browse system was probably updated and fixed up due to at the same time Search didnt exist (broken) thus in a sense Browse is actually FA's search...which does a better somewhat job than the ACTUAL search system...(or as my friend say: "are you actually browsing thru or are you searching for specific things cause both dictionaries say those two things are different things"

What the hell IS a maned wolf anyway. And who's the asshole who called it a wolf when it isn't?
the same people who decided to add Fox to the end of things that ARENT foxes
 
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