Class Action suit against M$!

[pheonix]

Lol, out of the top money grabbing companies, MS is pretty low.

Might wanna direct your bitching at companies like Apple, EA, Nintendo.

Nintendo? There shit's pretty cheap all around compared to MS and Sony. Apple is a rip and I wouldn't know about EA.

If you're so revolutionary, stop using anything that has any MS software installed. Hey, gotta fight da' powuh, eh?

As long as I don't pay for it I don't mind using it.

 

[lilEmber]

It's legal in all countries, Microsoft aren't stupid.
It's pretty basic that if somebody is offering xxx, but you decide to manipulate xxx for your own advantage and then you're caught, that somebody can cut off your xxx because it's -their service-. It's not your right, it's not your anything. It's all theirs, and it's up to them if you play or not no matter what your country's laws are.

 

[Azure]

I LOL @ this. Sounds like some fat fucktard stuck his neckbeard out too far and got it chopped off. I hope Microsoft wins, and crushes the hopes of millions of fatties everywhere.

 

[Xion]

The amusing this about all this is that, by design, Microsoft can't query your DVD drive firmware remotely, so the notion of them probing your hardware and invading your rights and voiding the EULA? Irrelevant. The console does collect data, but it collects it from the disks themselves and keeps an internal 'counter' of events. Once this counter reaches a certain threshold the console reports to Microsoft that you've undertaken suspicious activity and you get banned.
Don't believe me?




You can download a community tool to check this counter, here XVal 2.0
And from the readme
"The X value is used as a visual indication of security "events". This value is from a field stored in secdata.bin, offset 0x28 for a length of 8 bytes. It is visually displayed from dashboard in one of the system info screens. The X value is encrypted though and this tool will decrypt and display known recorded security events."




These events can be triggered by many different things: one famous example was a Saints Row 2 "review" copy that reported an event to the console if played after a certain date. In terms of directly probing the drive, that's quite impossible to do from within the console itself as the drive EEPROM needs to be sent a particular command to enter "read" or "write" mode - and the Xbox 360 SATA controller is incapable of sending such commands.

 

[Sinjo]

Nintendo? There shit's pretty cheap all around compared to MS and Sony. Apple is a rip and I wouldn't know about EA.



As long as I don't pay for it I don't mind using it.

Nintendo is cheap?

Four DS models.

one of which just came out a month or so after the dsi.
not to mention the endless "splurge" Items. Wii fit, Zapper, motion+ (which should have been in the wiimote from the start)

The amusing this about all this is that, by design, Microsoft can't query your DVD drive firmware remotely, so the notion of them probing your hardware and invading your rights and voiding the EULA? Irrelevant. The console does collect data, but it collects it from the disks themselves and keeps an internal 'counter' of events. Once this counter reaches a certain threshold the console reports to Microsoft that you've undertaken suspicious activity and you get banned.
Don't believe me?




You can download a community tool to check this counter, here XVal 2.0
And from the readme
"The X value is used as a visual indication of security "events". This value is from a field stored in secdata.bin, offset 0x28 for a length of 8 bytes. It is visually displayed from dashboard in one of the system info screens. The X value is encrypted though and this tool will decrypt and display known recorded security events."




These events can be triggered by many different things: one famous example was a Saints Row 2 "review" copy that reported an event to the console if played after a certain date. In terms of directly probing the drive, that's quite impossible to do from within the console itself as the drive EEPROM needs to be sent a particular command to enter "read" or "write" mode - and the Xbox 360 SATA controller is incapable of sending such commands.

So in short, exactly what I said earlier. They know you cmodded from the discs and data on them.

 

[Randy-Darkshade]

It's legal in all countries, Microsoft aren't stupid.
It's pretty basic that if somebody is offering xxx, but you decide to manipulate xxx for your own advantage and then you're caught, that somebody can cut off your xxx because it's -their service-. It's not your right, it's not your anything. It's all theirs, and it's up to them if you play or not no matter what your country's laws are.

Laws apply to everyone, Microsoft is no exception, they are not above the law just because they are a big company. Even Microsoft still has to abide by laws in different jurisdictions and countries.

 

[lilEmber]

Laws apply to everyone, Microsoft is no exception, they are not above the law just because they are a big company. Even Microsoft still has to abide by laws in different jurisdictions and countries.

There's no law forcing them to give you their service, though. Especially when you breach your terms on that service.

 

[Jashwa]

Unfair ban? You're retarded. They modified the hardware to get an unfair advantage, which is more than enough reason for a ban.

 

[Randy-Darkshade]

Unfair ban? You're retarded. They modified the hardware to get an unfair advantage, which is more than enough reason for a ban.

I agree, Microsoft never said you can't modify your system, they just say you can't use a modified system on Xbox live. Which I think keeps gaming fair, as not everyone will have a modified Xbox in the first place. I mean if people are willing to cheat and use a modified Xbox when the rules clearly state it is not allowed, they should expect to be banned for breaking the rules.

I'd be happy to loose against someone who has better skill than I, but if I lost to someone because they were using a modification and I wasn't I'd be pissed off.

 

[Irreverent]

It's legal in all countries, Microsoft aren't stupid.

MS alludes in section 27 of the TOS that this may not be the case. That language wouldn't be there if it were truly "legal in all countries." Microsoft isn't stupid, they put that clause there for a reason...a proactive attempt to to nullify potential suites likes this one.

It's pretty basic that if somebody is offering xxx, but you decide to manipulate xxx for your own advantage and then you're caught, that somebody can cut off your xxx because it's -their service-. It's not your right, it's not your anything. It's all theirs, and it's up to them if you play or not no matter what your country's laws are.

That's a simplistic "its my ball and bat and I'm going home" analogy, but it doesn't hold water in torte law. The first basic tenement of contract law is:

Party A offers party B a set of goods and services at set terms.

Party B can either

a) except the terms, and enter into a legal contract or
b) reject the terms, and walk away or
c) reject the terms and present a legally binding counter offer.

If party A accepts party B's counter offer (by providing the service) the legally binding contract is now on B's terms, not A's. Neat, eh?

In this case, Party B didn't make a counter offer, the over-arching consumer protection laws in his/her jurisdiction did if for him/her via proxy (legal proxy, not a caching server). That's why MS has that language in section 27 of the ToS. By continuing to provide service to modified machines, and not terminating it immediately, MS may have sealed their own fate, in some US and international jurisdictions.

This is going to be before the courts in the US and the EU for a very, very long time.

 

[LoinRockerForever]

Unfair ban? Wake up, hey violated the Terms of Service for Xbrick Live and got banned. Here's a quote from XBL TOS they agreed to when buying the console and initializing the service:

I guess when morons sue, they fail to do research...

Even with that standing then, the time it took them to ban these Xbox users is still just too convenient timing on the game releases. I think that the xboxs will still be banned, and Microsoft will have to change their TOS wording to be, "immediately ban users for modified game consoles". Otherwise if its been such a long time and they didn't notice for lets say a year after this new ban was in place, they should just let it go.

In the end they are fucking themselves up, honestly let them go and modify it the way they please. All the users are going to do are buy games and play them; now if they cheat online with said modification(s) then they should be ban.

 

[AshleyAshes]

This is going to be before the courts in the US and the EU for a very, very long time.

This would still require it to be put before the courts at all.

It's estimated that 3%-5% of the 360 user base has modded their machines. It's an unknown percentage of that which has been banned. Then which percentage of that actually cares enough to get into a suit? Then having enough people to have a payout be large enough for a firm to invest in the effort of a class action suit in that particular juristriction. The longer the trial will take the more the cost to keep the trial going and I think we know which side would exhaust it's financial resources first.

Then agian there was that guy that tried to sue Sony for banning him from the PlayStation Network because he was an abusive asshole to other users on the network. Though that did twice get thrown out of court before even going to trial. ...Granted he did represent himself.

 

[Irreverent]

This would still require it to be put before the courts at all.

It's estimated that 3%-5% of the 360 user base has modded their machines. It's an unknown percentage of that which has been banned. Then which percentage of that actually cares enough to get into a suit? Then having enough people to have a payout be large enough for a firm to invest in the effort of a class action suit in that particular juristriction. The longer the trial will take the more the cost to keep the trial going and I think we know which side would exhaust it's financial resources first.

Indeed. Which makes me wonder if there is more going on here than what first appears. I'm not up on the disclosure laws for civil tortes in the US. I wonder if this is an attempt by a third party (say US State or Revenue, or maybe the SEC?) , via this suite to get MS to disclose something they wouldn't normally disclose. The market manipulation and timing of the release of the games is a possible angle.

AbingtonIP is raising a class action suit, and now Datel is raising a suite too. This is just starting...

 

[AshleyAshes]

and now Datel is raising a suite too

The Datel suit will be a bit more unremarkable as it's just buisness agianst buisness. Though in the past lock outs agianst unauthorized third party accessories is hardly new so I dunno how far that'll go.

A lot of stuff on the 360 requires you to be an authorized manufacturer. The controllers are the same, there's an authentication system between the 360 and the controller so not just anyone canmanufacture a controller for a 360. You have to pay a fee to MS to build controllers for the 360. Which, honestly, isn't so much of a bad thing. In the world of third party controllers, there has been some terrible and crappy stuff for various systems.

 

[Randy-Darkshade]

The Datel suit will be a bit more unremarkable as it's just buisness agianst buisness. Though in the past lock outs agianst unauthorized third party accessories is hardly new so I dunno how far that'll go.

A lot of stuff on the 360 requires you to be an authorized manufacturer. The controllers are the same, there's an authentication system between the 360 and the controller so not just anyone canmanufacture a controller for a 360. You have to pay a fee to MS to build controllers for the 360. Which, honestly, isn't so much of a bad thing. In the world of third party controllers, there has been some terrible and crappy stuff for various systems.

I have tried third party controllers out before (mainly on the PS2 and to be honest, I don't think the genuine controllers cant be beaten on any console.

 

[pheonix]

Nintendo is cheap?

Four DS models.

one of which just came out a month or so after the dsi.
not to mention the endless "splurge" Items. Wii fit, Zapper, motion+ (which should have been in the wiimote from the start)

They are cheap. If you're dumb enough to buy the extras you don't actually need then your an idiot. There prices go down faster then all there competitors. The GameCube and Wii's price went down so fast it was mind boggling. The PS3 and 360 prices didn't go down nearly as fast.

 

[Randy-Darkshade]

They are cheap. If you're dumb enough to buy the extras you don't actually need then your an idiot. There prices go down faster then all there competitors. The GameCube and Wii's price went down so fast it was mind boggling. The PS3 and 360 prices didn't go down nearly as fast.

Even the prices of the PS3 and 360 haven't dropped much here. But the 360 is much cheaper than a PS3, which might be why a lot of people here seem to have opted for a 360. I still haven't bought either, I have played both, but I am not willing to spend all that money on a console when I really am not a gamer, and I would only play a few of the games available on either console because only a few games interest me. That and I wouldn't play the console much either, I rarely play on my PS2. So to me it isn't worth saving the money for one yet.

 

[AshleyAshes]

The GameCube and Wii's price went down so fast it was mind boggling. The PS3 and 360 prices didn't go down nearly as fast.

What are you talking about? The Wii was the last console to go down in price. It opened in the US at $249 MSRP on November 19th 2006 and it wasn't reduced to $199 untill September 27th 2009; almost three years later. Meanwhile the PS3 and 360 had both had multiple price cuts. Before the 2009 Wii price cut, the Xbox 360 Arcade SKU was actually cheaper than the Wii.

 

[pheonix]

What are you talking about? The Wii was the last console to go down in price. It opened in the US at $249 MSRP on November 19th 2006 and it wasn't reduced to $199 untill September 27th 2009; almost three years later. Meanwhile the PS3 and 360 had both had multiple price cuts. Before the 2009 Wii price cut, the Xbox 360 Arcade SKU was actually cheaper than the Wii.

It was at $199 here a few months after the holiday season. Either I'm in a nexus of the universe or it wasn't everywhere in the U.S.

Also: the 360 came out awhile before both other systems and PS3's starting price was absurd to begin with.

 

[AshleyAshes]

It was at $199 here a few months after the holiday season. Either I'm in a nexus of the universe or it wasn't everywhere in the U.S.

It could have been on sale. The retailer afterall IS free to not follow the MSRP. But the MSRP of the unit itself (And almost certianly, what retailers have to pay Nintendo to get the hardware themselves) hadn't changed for almost three years.

 

[Nanakisan]

I have tried third party controllers out before (mainly on the PS2 and to be honest, I don't think the genuine controllers cant be beaten on any console.

Lol in this instance i am guilty of using illegal hardware on Nintendos N64 by actually owning a N64 Super Pad controller which may i say is the single most best third party controller i ever used. thing has the ever typical turbo buttons system which is nice but recently i had to do internal repairs to the Control Stick and i had to repair one of the springs for the buttons seeing as the A button was refusing to pop back up. total hell but yes i agree so far on lal the points made. I actually want MS to win this mostly because well MS is being smart about this. I mostly started this thread as a discussion some may have assumed i was on the cheaters side which i'm not hahaha.

 

[AshleyAshes]

Lol in this instance i am guilty of using illegal hardware on Nintendos N64 by actually owning a N64 Super Pad controller which may i say is the single most best third party controller i ever used.

Illegal? The 360 is I think the first console to ever use any form of authentication for game controllers. The input on most systems is a fairly open standard, at worst a developer would have to buy the documentation.

 

[pheonix]

It could have been on sale. The retailer afterall IS free to not follow the MSRP. But the MSRP of the unit itself (And almost certianly, what retailers have to pay Nintendo to get the hardware themselves) hadn't changed for almost three years.

I only follow what I see in the local stores. *shrugs*

 

[Xion]

Where do you people keep getting the idea that this is used for cheating, btw? Do you know anything at all about what the Xbox 360 drive-mods allow? Here's a cheat-sheet...

You can boot 1:1 backups (that means, identical to retail, NO DEVIATION), from YOUR region, on your console.

Modifying the disk to cheat breaks the stealth, and the firmware won't boot it. This is purely for piracy purposes and has nothing to do with cheaters You can't cheat with a modified firmware, you can't "ruin peoples online experience" or "gain an unfair advantage". You can play 1:1 backups of retail games without modification to the game files. And that's it o_o

 

[Jashwa]

Where do you people keep getting the idea that this is used for cheating, btw? Do you know anything at all about what the Xbox 360 drive-mods allow? Here's a cheat-sheet...

You can boot 1:1 backups (that means, identical to retail, NO DEVIATION), from YOUR region, on your console.

Modifying the disk to cheat breaks the stealth, and the firmware won't boot it. This is purely for piracy purposes and has nothing to do with cheaters You can't cheat with a modified firmware, you can't "ruin peoples online experience" or "gain an unfair advantage". You can play 1:1 backups of retail games without modification to the game files. And that's it o_o

Do you not even pay attention to what the thread is about?

The thread is about the people that were banned for using modded controllers to cheat.