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College-bound and in need of a laptop

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Texywolf

Neighborhood Hugglewoof
I will be going to college soon, and I hear that a laptop is very useful.

A) It helps for the studying when you're on campus and, let's face it, who wants to be in a room when your roommate and his lady/man are getting it on, so you decide to go out and do a little studying.

B) I know this doesn't happen alot, but people still do take their laptops out and write their notes with them.

Plus, with my writing carreer ahead of me, I'd like to be able to write when not at home. My current price range for a laptop is $600, and I don't need anything too special. I just want to get the most bang for the buck. So, suggestions?
 

ToeClaws

PEBKAC exterminator
Aye, as Baron says, your first order of business is define specifically what you need the laptop for.

Next thing to consider is how long do you expect to use it for? Like a business does with its assets, you should try to figure out the sort of life you want from this laptop, IE, are you buying something that you intend to last you throughout all of college? Or are you buying something for the first year or two?

As with anything in life, quality comes into play with a laptop - yes you can get them for cheap - under $1000, but the cheap ones are garbage and don't last long, have good warranties or expandability. You also have to consider a side option - do you want a desktop PC as well, or just the laptop?

This is important because if you really want to play games, you can build a desktop PC that's capable of games for a lot cheaper than a laptop that's capable of games, plus the desktop will be vastly more upgradeable, allowing you to put in better video cards and more capacity and CPU power overtime, whereas even a good gaming laptop is pretty much stuck at what you bought it as.
 

Texywolf

Neighborhood Hugglewoof
I currently have an outstanding PC for my gaming, 4 Gigs, 880GTS 512 Megs, Dual Core etc. I only plan to use the laptop for my college study, and possibly some heavy writing, depending on where I take my carreer in the next 4 or so years.
 
It really depends on you. I have friends who have gone their whole college career with their sand had no problems. I've used a laptop for mine.
 

ToeClaws

PEBKAC exterminator
I currently have an outstanding PC for my gaming, 4 Gigs, 880GTS 512 Megs, Dual Core etc. I only plan to use the laptop for my college study, and possibly some heavy writing, depending on where I take my carreer in the next 4 or so years.

Ah excellent - good man. So, you have some nice leeway with the laptop then in that it doesn't have to be cutting edge and/or super powered. To last the 4 years with little or no mishaps or issues, you do want to try and get a decent make, or a good make if you plan heavy use.

First, a bit of laptop eduMcCation: Though there are hundreds of models and variations of laptops out there, they all basically break down into two main classes: Consumer, and Business.

Consumer model laptops are by far the most common. They are cheap (usually under $1000 US), colourful and vary immensely in shape, size and capabilities. They are designed for occasional use (less than 6 hours per day on average). They generally work well for the first year, but depending on make and quality, can begin having issues in as little as a years time, and rarely last more than 3 to 4 years (especially if you use them a lot more than the intended average).

Business model laptops are more rugged, high quality devices designed for use in offices (they generally run $1000 or more). They can very from moderate use, to workstation-replacement machines, and are designed for 6+ hours a day of operation (24/7 in the case of workstation-class). They tend to be less colourful and varied as the consumer ones, but also tend to last a lot longer. Some come with longer warranties by default, or in other cases, buying extended warranties on them are often cheaper. They have average functional lives of 3 to 7 years.

Tip: You'll often here people say "Don't buy <insert brand here> laptops! They're bad!" Remember that the consumer and business class machines are very different beasts. An HP consumer laptop, for example, is crap, while HP's business line are very high end machines. So remember, think of the two classes as very separate entities, even within the same company.

The obvious better choice is the business model - consumer class laptops should be avoided at all costs when possible, HOWEVER, price sometimes makes buying a business class machine difficult if not impossible for some folks.

In your case, you're in luck because mega power and cutting edge aren't your biggest needs. That means you can get a slightly older model business class machine and/or a refurbished one for consumer class costs, yet still get 4+ years out of it. :)

There are two main ways to go about that. First is to look around on classified sites such as Kijiji or Craigslist for your area. They are a great source for used laptops, and you can find year old business models that are still very powerful, but being offered for a much lower price. If you choose this route, make sure that you examine and test the laptop before buying it. If it has a long-term warranty (as many business class ones do) it is likely transferable to your name (again, check on that beforehand). You can use Ebay, but the tricky thing with Ebay is the inability to see and test it first. You basically have to trust the seller and hope that they (or the process of shipping) don't leave you screwed.

The second method, and the safer of the two, is to buy a business class machine through a manufacturer's resell divisions, or from a business that does off-lease resales. In both cases, the machines will come with a legitimate warranty, and have been inspected and refurbished/repaired as necessary so that they are in perfect working condition. You can often get very nice business models for well under $1000. Some outlets you can check:

Dell (business class): http://www.dell.com/us/en/dfb/notebooks/ct.aspx?refid=notebooks&s=dfb&cs=28

TigerDirect (mixed classes): http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...Off+lease+laptops&searchbtn.x=0&searchbtn.y=0

Lenovo (mixed classes): http://outlet.lenovo.com/laptops.html

HP (business class): http://www.hp.com/sbso/buspurchase_refurbished_specials.html

Just use Google to look for refurbished and/or Off-lease, and you should find some more. :)
 

KrazFabbit

Member
A few suggestions:
Any of the EeePCs, Winds, or Aspire Ones if you'd be interested in a netbook type of thing.
For subnotebooks there's an Samsung nc20, Asus n10j, and the HP DV2z.

All of those are extra light and portable. I currently have the DV2 and it's a surprisingly good little laptop. Can run a tad hot, but if you know how to undervolt the thing(there are plenty of guides) the temps can drop a very good amount.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
I would really recommend a Lenovo ThinkPad series, which are business-class and built like tanks. They're fitted with decent hardware, depending on the range, though I'd really recommend you grab the T series, which at minimum comes with a Core 2 Duo P8400 2.26GHz CPU, 2GB DDR3-1066 RAM, 250GB hard drive, and Intel GMA 4500MHD integrated graphics and start at $749 for the 14.1" version, theT400. For the 15" version of the same hardware, the T500, it's $779, and also comes with a 6-cell Li-ion battery instead of a 4-cell with the 14.1". Both models have different ranges of hardware to choose from, but for your needs, I could safely recommend grabbing the lower-tier stuff, since you're not going to be doing anything particularly demanding on them.

If you were a little more price-conscious and don't mind lugging around a slightly heftier laptop, you could go with the R series, which is a cool $100 cheaper, comes with a gig less RAM by default, and also a slightly faster processor, the P8600 at 2.40GHz. These guys are about twice as thick as the T-series, however.

They also have a new SL series, which is branded as budget, but I wouldn't recommend them when you can get their more powerful cousins for just a little more, unless you really couldn't afford it. They come with 1GB of RAM, and the entry-level processor is a Celeron Dual Core T1600 @ 1.66GHz. That having been said, they may have longer battery life, with lower-power components and a 6-cell Li-ion battery being the default.

On all Lenovo models, you get a highly durable metal internal frame they call a "Roll Cage" with impressive coverage and honeycombed design, the "Active Protection System", which detects when the laptop is falling and protects the hard drive from damage, DDR3 memory (meaning energy savings on RAM) and options for things like LED-backlit displays, solid state hard drives, and so on.
 
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Kivaari

Meow.
If you go for a Netbook, try and get a larger one. Some, like my Eee 900a, have smaller keyboards that suck to type on. You probably won't have to worry too much, as it seems like everyone is switching to 10" screens anyways. Netbooks usually cost $300-$400(Though I managed to get my Eee brand new for $200), and should be fine for what you want do with them.
 

Sassy

Banned
Banned
Lenovo S10 + Mac OSX 10.5.7.
You'll thank me later~
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
Lenovo S10 + Mac OSX 10.5.7.
You'll thank me later~

Ehhh... If you're used to Mac OS X, sure. If not, don't bother. It's more trouble than it's worth both to install it and to learn to use it. Also note that the S-series is part of the IdeaPad consumer line, without any of the ruggedness or durability features of the ThinkPad series. I'd only recommend it if you were specifically looking for a "netbook" (that's subnotebook!).
 
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KaiFox

NHL 11...you don't understand.
It all depends. As mentioned before, if it's going to be strictly for college, I'd go with a notebook. Doesn't have to be too extravagant. I just got a laptop for college a few days ago, actually. Here's a few things to keep in mind:

- What's your major? If you're going to major in a business field like I am, you're going to want a laptop with a number pad. Or if your major requires heavy use of a computer, I'd recommend buying a mouse to go with the laptop and going for a strong processor so you can work faster.
- What will you need? You're going to definitely need Microsoft Office, Anti-Virus, and internet service. If you plan on using it for music, gaming, or anything like that, you'll probably want to go for a laptop with a lot of memory.
- How long will you be away from an outlet when using the laptop? Get one with a good battery life. For example, my laptop is an HP with 5 hours, 15 minutes worth of battery life, but the version beneath it has only 3 hours of battery life. It can make a big influence on your purchase.

Those are the three main things I took into consideration when I bought my laptop. I'd personally recommend either a Toshiba or an HP laptop, but it's up to you. Above all, think about "Bang for your buck". Don't pay extra money for memory space you won't need. If 3GBs is enough, then don't bother going up to 4GBs. One more thing: buy a G router, not an N router.

Hope this helps.
 
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Sassy

Banned
Banned
Ehhh... If you're used to Mac OS X, sure. If not, don't bother. It's more trouble than it's worth both to install it and to learn to use it. Also note that the S-series is part of the IdeaPad consumer line, without any of the ruggedness or durability features of the ThinkPad series. I'd only recommend it if you were specifically looking for a "netbook" (that's subnotebook!).
For $600; a netbook represents the best value in combined battery life, portability and the fact that you're getting a machine that is brand new in box with warranty; sometimes up to three or five years. Sure you can buy a preowned two year old notebook for the same money and it WILL most definitely be a faster machine (Even the Pentium M scores roughly 1.8x the Xbench CPU rating as the Atom); but you don't know who's problems you're inheireting.

So this business about "avoid consumer targetted machines" blah blah blah? ignore it. Find a netbook you like and run with it ~ the MSI Wind 10" models have upward of 9 hours battery life; and Windows 7 runs great on them if you're not happy to run the worlds only professionally coded mainstream Unix OS (Mac OS X).
 

ToeClaws

PEBKAC exterminator
So this business about "avoid consumer targetted machines" blah blah blah? ignore it. Find a netbook you like and run with it ~ the MSI Wind 10" models have upward of 9 hours battery life; and Windows 7 runs great on them if you're not happy to run the worlds only professionally coded mainstream Unix OS (Mac OS X).

Netbooks are a unique class of laptop - more powerful than PDAs, but less powerful than full fledged laptops. I have never seen one sold with a warranty of more than one year. You can purchase extended warranties, but doing so for 3+ years will sometimes double the price. Even if the unit does last that long, there is a very good chance that you will outgrow the unit's capabilities. Netbooks are often limited to between 1 and 2gigs of RAM and smaller drives.

Now don't take this as a jab Sassy but at 14, you lack the education and business experience to just wave off the business model laptops and dismiss all the good information others have so far provided here. The worth of a system is not just the initial money spent on it, but a combination of projected total use, operational lifetime, and possible downtime costs. That's why the better models always win out.

A NetBook is only a good idea if you plan to replace it within 1 to 2 years of purchase, and don't expect a lot of power, functionality or quality for your dollar.
 

KrazFabbit

Member
The Asus N10j comes with a 2 year warrenty with a year of accident protection... but it can be a bit expensive depending on the model... though right now I do believe all models have a $100 mail in rebate.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
For $600; a netbook represents the best value in combined battery life, portability and the fact that you're getting a machine that is brand new in box with warranty; sometimes up to three or five years.
Um. I've never ever heard of a netbook coming with a five-year warranty; Hell, you can't normally buy five year warranties. They also may be portable, but they don't normally come with optical drives (meaning that if you need to be reading CD's/DVD's, you need to cart around an external optical drive), hard drives with any significant capacity (meaning that you'll need to cart around an external hard drive for larger storage space (the MSI Wind does come with a 160GB HDD, though)), a screen that can support resolutions higher than 1024x768 (I've seen some HP's at 9" that have 720p displays, but those kinds of machines are rare), or a keyboard/trackpad that isn't incredibly tiny even by notebook standards.

So this business about "avoid consumer targetted machines" blah blah blah? ignore it. Find a netbook you like and run with it ~ the MSI Wind 10" models have upward of 9 hours battery life; and Windows 7 runs great on them if you're not happy to run the
It's true that avoiding consumer-targeted machines is a good idea, because consumer-targeted machines are squeezed into certain price points in whatever way possible, and usually don't represent a good value for your money, unless said consumer machine is a gaming machine. Any mid-range notebook (or really any computer) will be much more reliable, as a rule, if purchased as a business-oriented model than if purchased as a consumer model with glossy finish and big "SALE!" stamps all over it.

They'll advertise 9 hours of battery life, but more than likely you'll average half that. Also, MSI... Well, I can't say I'd recommend an MSI product unless you want to take a gamble on the 50/50 chance they've built something solid or cheaped out on the parts. Either way, you'll end up replacing it after maybe two or three years, but that's true of pretty much every netbook out there. They're designed and priced to be disposable, and frankly, I wouldn't want to be doing anything important with that tiny screen.

The bottom line is, netbooks in general have even less utility than a standard notebook does. Their greatest advantage over all else is in terms of portability, which isn't always a huge concern when talking about having a 5lbs 15" notebook versus a 2lbs 9" netbook.

worlds only professionally coded mainstream Unix OS (Mac OS X).

>_> And what of HP-UX? Solaris? Those are professionally-coded and quite mainstream, but on the opposite end of the spectrum as far as target audience is concerned. Also, Red Hat Linux is professionally-coded and is also mainstream, if by professionally-coded, you mean coded by actual employees of an actual company for the sole purpose of selling said OS, as is Mandriva, and let's not forget Xandros. Saying Apple coded the only professional mainstream Unix-based OS is like saying Apple created the first-and-only MP3 player on the market, which, bizarrely, some Apple-ites tend to believe, as well.

I'd also like to point out that said wonderful awesome who-could-deny-it SuperOS that is Mac OS X is licensed only for Apple hardware, and by purchasing the OS, you're actually purchasing an upgrade copy whose cost relies on the assumption that you own an Apple computer. Using it on hardware other than an Apple is a legal grey area which I'm sure Mr. Jobs would describe as "theft". Not that I particularly care what the turtlenecked one has to say about anything, but that's another potential drawback to the Mac OS X idea.

In closing, what ToeClaws said. A netbook isn't a computer in the traditional sense - It's what many some years ago would have called an internet appliance. While they can now run more modern (or rather, more accurately, non-stripped) operating systems and have more powerful components than the original netbook concepts in along the first eeePC era, they still can't do much more than they used to, which is browse, e-mail, word processing, etc, on the tiniest screen possible. They have their uses, but they are definitely not versatile.
 
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Sassy

Banned
Banned
Um. I've never ever heard of a netbook coming with a five-year warranty; Hell, you can't normally buy five year warranties.
Go into any department store where the salesfolk are paid a commission based on warranty sales; guarantee they'll offer you a 5 year warranty extension and it's usually very afforable.
They also may be portable, but they don't normally come with optical drives (meaning that if you need to be reading CD's/DVD's, you need to cart around an external optical drive)
Irrelevent. Optical media is basically dead anyway.
hard drives with any significant capacity (meaning that you'll need to cart around an external hard drive for larger storage space (the MSI Wind does come with a 160GB HDD, though))
Most 10" Netbooks are available with 120GB/160GB HDD's. The later MSI stuff even has a fast SSD for your OS install and a roomy HDD for storeage.
a screen that can support resolutions higher than 1024x768 (I've seen some HP's at 9" that have 720p displays, but those kinds of machines are rare)
1024x600 is just as ample for any task that 1024x768 is; due to the fact that we're conditioned to vertical scrolling. As long as no horizontal scrolling is required; we're happy.
squeezed into certain price points...don't represent a good value for your money
Hahaha, nice contradiction there.
Any mid-range notebook (or really any computer) will be much more reliable, as a rule, if purchased as a business-oriented model than if purchased as a consumer model with glossy finish and big "SALE!" stamps all over it.
Dell often sell the exact same model in both markets with the only difference being a more expensive price tag on the business model.
They'll advertise 9 hours of battery life, but more than likely you'll average half that.
Read some reviews before spouting rubbish; the 9 hours is the TESTED battery life.
Also, MSI... Well, I can't say I'd recommend an MSI product unless you want to take a gamble on the 50/50 chance they've built something solid or cheaped out on the parts.
Warning! Warning! Nerd with brand loyalty; warning!
Either way, you'll end up replacing it after maybe two or three years, but that's true of pretty much every netbook out there. They're designed and priced to be disposable, and frankly, I wouldn't want to be doing anything important with that tiny screen.
Get a five year in-store warranty and the resultant store credit will ensure you get a brand new netbook if this ever happens.
The bottom line is, netbooks in general have even less utility than a standard notebook does. Their greatest advantage over all else is in terms of portability, which isn't always a huge concern when talking about having a 5lbs 15" notebook versus a 2lbs 9" netbook.
I don't see how having no optical drive hurts a netbook; especailly with the generally greater level of battery life over other portable machines due to lower powered parts.

>_> And what of HP-UX? Solaris? Those are professionally-coded and quite mainstream, but on the opposite end of the spectrum as far as target audience is concerned. Also, Red Hat Linux is professionally-coded and is also mainstream, if by professionally-coded, you mean coded by actual employees of an actual company for the sole purpose of selling said OS, as is Mandriva, and let's not forget Xandros. Saying Apple coded the only professional mainstream Unix-based OS is like saying Apple created the first-and-only MP3 player on the market, which, bizarrely, some Apple-ites tend to believe, as well.

I'd also like to point out that said wonderful awesome who-could-deny-it SuperOS that is Mac OS X is licensed only for Apple hardware, and by purchasing the OS, you're actually purchasing an upgrade copy whose cost relies on the assumption that you own an Apple computer. Using it on hardware other than an Apple is a legal grey area which I'm sure Mr. Jobs would describe as "theft". Not that I particularly care what the turtlenecked one has to say about anything, but that's another potential drawback to the Mac OS X idea.

In closing, what ToeClaws said. A netbook isn't a computer in the traditional sense - It's what many some years ago would have called an internet appliance. While they can now run more modern (or rather, more accurately, non-stripped) operating systems and have more powerful components than the original netbook concepts in along the first eeePC era, they still can't do much more than they used to, which is browse, e-mail, word processing, etc, on the tiniest screen possible. They have their uses, but they are definitely not versatile.
No-one cares to hear your Open Sores AIDS malarky. Take it elsewhere; this is a thread about laptops.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
Just wow. Good job. You sure showed me what for, yessir.

Because, y'know, obviously everything I said was Open Source drivel and brand-loyalty. I mean, how could it not be? It's not like there wasn't anything Open Source-related in there, nor was there a lack of glowing endorsement of a brand! Yes, you sure did show me in a grand battle of wits. Good thing this was an e-peen contest and not a thread about helping someone understand the pros and cons of a certain class of computer, right?

Right?

Come now, I've never seen anyone so butthurt over a recommendation for a pass on netbooks in general.
 
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Sassy

Banned
Banned
Way to address pretty much none of my post! I guess that counts as a "I'm sorry, I don't know what I'm talking about; please disregard any further posts from me re: technology" from you, right? I should add that to my signature so people are fully aware that's how you feel~
 

Lobar

The hell am I reading, here?
I own an HP mini 2140 with the 1366x768 screen option, and I've been impressed how much this thing has replaced my (admittedly shitty) desktop. If you know how to rip an ISO and mount it to your hard drive with daemon tools, get one of these and a cheap optical reader that stays on your desk. You'll never miss having an internal optical drive, I promise.

edit: Hell, even if you don't know how to use daemon tools (you should learn, it's almost as easy as it is useful) I can't see this setup not working for you. You may want your external to be able to burn as well if you're going to be more reliant on optical media, but I don't think they even sell readers without burning capabilities anymore.
 
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Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
Way to address pretty much none of my post! I guess that counts as a "I'm sorry, I don't know what I'm talking about; please disregard any further posts from me re: technology" from you, right? I should add that to my signature so people are fully aware that's how you feel~
No, I addressed nearly all of it. Your post contained pretty much nothing but jabs at me for no real reason with very little "technology" (a line or two about the MSI Wind, talking about how optical media is dead, saying how 1024x768 should be enough for anybody (indeed, a 10" screen should be enough for anybody), how department stores offer obscene warranties, and making other baseless assertions in one-liners), so I feel I have no reason to respond to you in any way other than in kind and point out just how immature that sentiment of yours is. What you have actually accomplished here is to point out that you feel only your opinion is right, and that any other opinions are irrelevant, stupid, and otherwise false, regardless of experience and actual knowledge, and also that you're immature enough to proclaim yourself superior to someone else because they called you on it.

Again, good job. I don't know what it is about me that got you going - Maybe I badmouthed a few too many products you own and brand loyalty is kicking in (oh wait, you accused me of that) - But you've successfully turned a "What's your recommendation on a laptop" thread into a preschooler's "NUH UH I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE A POOPIE HEAD" temper tantrum in the run of two or three posts. If you want to continue kicking and screaming, don't drag this thread down with you. If you've got something against me, take it into PM. Otherwise, if you've got nothing constructive to add to the conversation aside from "LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME", please don't post - And in that vein, I'm not going to respond to any more provocation in this thread, either.
 

ArielMT

'Net Help Desk
Now you see why he's in my ignore list.

@OP: ToeClaws and Runefox made some good recommendations.
 

Sassy

Banned
Banned
No, I addressed nearly all of it. Your post contained pretty much nothing but jabs at me for no real reason with very little "technology" (a line or two about the MSI Wind, talking about how optical media is dead, saying how 1024x768 should be enough for anybody (indeed, a 10" screen should be enough for anybody), how department stores offer obscene warranties, and making other baseless assertions in one-liners), so I feel I have no reason to respond to you in any way other than in kind and point out just how immature that sentiment of yours is. What you have actually accomplished here is to point out that you feel only your opinion is right, and that any other opinions are irrelevant, stupid, and otherwise false, regardless of experience and actual knowledge, and also that you're immature enough to proclaim yourself superior to someone else because they called you on it.

Again, good job. I don't know what it is about me that got you going - Maybe I badmouthed a few too many products you own and brand loyalty is kicking in (oh wait, you accused me of that) - But you've successfully turned a "What's your recommendation on a laptop" thread into a preschooler's "NUH UH I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE A POOPIE HEAD" temper tantrum in the run of two or three posts. If you want to continue kicking and screaming, don't drag this thread down with you. If you've got something against me, take it into PM. Otherwise, if you've got nothing constructive to add to the conversation aside from "LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME", please don't post - And in that vein, I'm not going to respond to any more provocation in this thread, either.
So...what you're saying is that because you've been proven wrong; you'll now cover your ears with your hands and go "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" so you don't have to accept it? Haha, grow up!
 

Carenath

Cynical Dragon
Lenovo S10 + Mac OSX 10.5.7.
You'll thank me later~
That is also illegal, Apple's licence-agreement prohibits installing OS X on non-apple hardware, no ifs, no buts.



  • Irrelevent. Optical media is basically dead anyway.
  • Dell often sell the exact same model in both markets with the only difference being a more expensive price tag on the business model.
  • Read some reviews before spouting rubbish; the 9 hours is the TESTED battery life.
  • No-one cares to hear your Open Sores AIDS malarky. Take it elsewhere; this is a thread about laptops.
An optical drive on a net-book is not a necessity, as netbooks are intended for being portable with greater-than-your-average-laptop battery life. But this is a trade-off a college-student shouldnt have to make.

Not the case, Dell's business laptops are not built the same as their consumer-level laptops. In my personal experience, Dell's business and vostro range of laptops outlast and outperform consumer-grade models.

Such tests dont reflect real-world usage conditions. Case in point: My Apple macbook pro, has a claimed battery life of 5 hours, but in average use, I've gotten closer to 4 hours, less again as the battery wears out due to normal use. Treat such reported tests with a grain of salt, its not like manufacturers would artificially inflate their runtime's to encourage you to buy their hardware over their competitors :rolleyes:

You stated Mac OS X as being the only professionaly coded Unix operating system, ironically making yourself out to be an apple fanboy, while accusing Runefox of 'brand loyalty'. He stated HP/UX was also a professionally coded OS. HP/UX is commercial software, you cannot just get it (legally) for free the way you can with Linux. Also.. Unix != Open Source.

So...what you're saying is that because you've been proven wrong; you'll now cover your ears with your hands and go "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" so you don't have to accept it? Haha, grow up!
I realise you're only 14, but if you cant reply with something constructive, please dont reply at all. You have been ignoring the fact that others who have replied with good suggestions (e.g. ToeClaws) have been in this business for 20+ years and know what they are doing.

On that note, thread closed for derailment
 
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