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Commissions - Money Transfer - Legal Issues?

Your preferred method to sell commissions:

  • Money Order

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • CCBIll

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • PayPal

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • MoneyBookers

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wmtransfer

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Verotel

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • E-Gold

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other (Please post)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • None! I'd love to but it's too complicated!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

pornthulhu

Member
[size=medium]Commissions - Money Transfer - Legal Issues?[/size]

Hello everybody! :)


Many use paypal for commission payment, but is it legal? Do you care?


This post is aimed at mature readers especially artists that do commissions or run a paysite.
Minors, please do not read, altough there's nothing offensive about it.


This thread is not here to get any heated discussions going, please keep it professional, friendly and helpful.

===

First of all sorry for the long article, but it's important to me.
We day dreaming artists might not care about legal stuff that much, but there just has to be one ugly customer or competitor and you're flushed down the drain. Shouldn't but can happen. Didn't see that happen yet, but you never know. ;)

I've been approached to do commissions, but until now I haven't figured out a way how to handle money transactions. Most importantly if I'm going to do commissions, I want to stay anonymous. Reasonable, because I want to keep it apart from my other work.

Now if I figure out a way to do this, I bet other artists might find it useful, too. At least it can save their time to figure out  a way for themselves.


Paypal:
Until now I saw that many artists around here use PayPal. I do have an account, but as far as I know your real name is given to the sender/receiver of the transaction, am I correct? That's the way I remember it when using it, besides it's written in their Privacy Policy.
+ Availability
+ Easy to use
+ Free (withdraw founds might cost)
+ Stable
- Real Name Given
- "Currently" no sexually oriented digital goods allowed (check "Mature Audiences Policy"!)
- Soon official Bank status (in some countries?), might complicate things


Moneybookers:
Very easy to use, secure and also well known.
+ Availability
+ Easy to use
+ Free (withdraw founds might cost)
+ Stable
- Real Name Given
- Strictly forbidden to receive payments for porn and hardcore content or services (check "7. Receiving Payments"!)


Wmtransfer:
+ Low fees
-+ Unacceptable product categories: "Adult goods and services", but not mentioned in terms of use


wirecard
+ Couldn't find restrictions for mature content
- Transfer Fees


2checkout
- Prohibited Products: Adult subscription services, pornography (pictures, videos, DVDs, magazines)
- Registration fee
- Transfer Fees


epassporte
+ Seemingly does allow adult material
- Yearly fee of US 5$ after first year
- Transfer Fees
- withdraw to bank account has high costs


e-bullion
- USD$5.00 per month/ per account
- No pornographic material allowed


phoenixdollar
Invest in silver?
- Seems complicated :/


pecunix
Invest in gold?
- Seems complicated :/


Adult Related Services:

forepay
+ Adult content allowed
- only for UK


ccbill
- high fees
- Seems complicated since it's paysite based


verotel
+ Seems pretty annonymous for sellers
+ Adult content allowed
- Seems complicated since it's paysite based

verotel
+ Fees seem to be reasonable
+ Adult content allowed
- Seems not annonymous for sellers


Not checked yet:

Bank Card Central
Citibank Online
Instabill



Unstable services:
1mdc - "U.S. Government court order has forced e-gold(R) to freeze or block all of 1mdc's accounts"
e-gold - various sites won't accept it /stopped to accept it because of instability


I'd really love to hear what you have to say about this issue.

There's also a legal difference between pornography and pornographical/erotic art -- at least I heard that. If you someone can enlighten me there, please do so.
If you have any info about the said payment services that helps, or can mention services I forgot, please do so. Helps everyone reading it and might improve the overall commission-interaction in the community (of course only if people want to since I understand being correct about stuff doesn't make it easier).

I seriously got to take a break now, it took a few hours to do this research, my head is buzzing. XD
 

farorenightclaw

New Member
I can't say much for that other stuff, except--you don't need to use your real name for paypal UNLESS you are going to add a credit card to your account. In theory you could make a fake account, go up to the $2000 limit, then make a new accoutn and keep doing the same.. dunno how acceptable that is though XD

Also, yes, there is a difference in 'erotic art' and 'pornography' under US law. Basically, to avoid arguments about 'what is art', any creative work is considered erotic art UNLESS it depicts a real situation or real people. That's how it works for the kiddie stuff anyway :/ I assume it is the same throughout. I do know that drawn material is conisdered erotic art rather than pornography however.
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
Actually Paypal will let you sell goods as tangible, if you're referring to the mature content policy. A print version, burned CD becomes a tangible good if you're in the US. Here is what you do, have the person send a note with the address, and say "For art CD" there you go.

Forgot to note that Amazon also has some money transfer service too.
 

pornthulhu

Member
God, I'm glad people reply! Thanks!
I already thought: Oh no you opened up a can of worms and now you're done for! :p

farorenightclaw,
Paypal:
Don't you have to add a bank account to withdraw founds? And that account does have to have the same name, so that way you'll have to enter the real one. Basically if you use a fantasy nickname for your account you can only use paypal for paypal transactions and never get the cash out of it for real, correct?

Art:
That's also how I see it. Say, do you have any links to back that up? Thanks in advance.
That basically means that it's not pornography (although it is if it was real), but erotic art. And then it's all compliant to the Terms Of Use of those payment options.

Arshes Nei,
that's a valid point there, thanks.
"Here is what you do, have the person send a note with the address, and say "For art CD" there you go."
- "note" just to make sure, that person sends that "note" in a paypal money transfer, right?

I'll check out Amazon now.
 

pornthulhu

Member
Arshes Nei:
Just reread the mature content policy here: http://anonym.to/?https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame&ed=mature
"You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of, or receipt of donations for, any obscene or sexually oriented goods or services."
Ohhhwww to bad: "PayPal will not include sexual preferences or viewpoints as a factor in determining what goods or services are prohibited under the Mature Audiences Policy." :(
Isn't a yiff/erotic pic a "sexually oriented good or service"?

Now what about the following idea:
Set up a secondary paypal account (allowed, or so I read) with your nickname and then transfer founds from there to your primary account. Couldn't find anything that said "real identity or name" in the Terms, so I guess that's legal even if it sounds a bit bold?

Amazon:
lol, I'm just to muzzy to find the Amazon money transaction service anything so it seems :/
I only found Gift Certificates and that Amazon-Coinstar deal (getting gift certificates for loose change)
Can anyone point me in the right direction?
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
pornthulhu said:
Arshes Nei:
Just reread the mature content policy here: http://anonym.to/?https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame&ed=mature
"You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of, or receipt of donations for, any obscene or sexually oriented goods or services."
Ohhhwww to bad: "PayPal will not include sexual preferences or viewpoints as a factor in determining what goods or services are prohibited under the Mature Audiences Policy." :(
Isn't a yiff/erotic pic a "sexually oriented good or service"?

Now what about the following idea:
Set up a secondary paypal account (allowed, or so I read) with your nickname and then transfer founds from there to your primary account. Couldn't find anything that said "real identity or name" in the Terms, so I guess that's legal even if it sounds a bit bold?

Amazon:
lol, I'm just to muzzy to find the Amazon money transaction service anything so it seems :/
I only found Gift Certificates and that Amazon-Coinstar deal (getting gift certificates for loose change)
Can anyone point me in the right direction?

I had discussed this actually in another thread earlier, that's why I remember it's about tangible goods and not digital. They basically don't want you selling access to sexcams or website access. If you are selling art, you say you're sending a cd.

http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=7906

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside&ed=mature

I'll have to look up the Amazon service because the name escapes me right now.
 

pornthulhu

Member
The mature policy I posted is a bit different, it's localized (outside US). You have to log in to view it as I just saw myself, being logged out now. It doesn't distinguish between physical and digital goods.

That's why the policy you posted states "PayPal also currently does not allow transactions for any sexually oriented physical or digital goods by non-U.S. residents." that includes buyers and sellers alike if I'm not mistaken.

Sigh, back where I started :/
 

Sugandya

New Member
The only ones I have experience with are Paypal and, believe it or not, Amazon (sometimes I accept Amazon gift credits as payment when I need something off that website). I do adult commissions and since there was no direct mention of pornographic services being paid for, neither me nor my commissioner have run into issues.

Their paysite rule is weird. I know someone who runs an adult art site and takes donations via Paypal. He said that if you link the "donation/pay page" to a page separate away from the adult content is, it's fine in Paypal's eyes. He's been doing this for a few months now with no trouble.... yet.
 

pornthulhu

Member
Sugandya,
Amazon gift certificates are valid for 18 months. You just get the code someone bought via email from him and then you can cash it in for Amazon goods, right? Sounds like a very good idea if you want to buy something.

"no trouble.... yet."
I read an article yesterday, damn, can't find it now. It was about exactly that: Now that paypal is getting a bank license and things are changing since it was bought by ebay the rules are getting stricter. Thus there's no more "hear no evil, see no evil" going on. At least that was what the article said. :/

What I don't understand is that you can sell erotic art and photos via ebay, and paypal is owned by ebay. At least a lot of people do. It's a mess :p
 

Sugandya

New Member
Yep, that's right! It's pretty useful. There's also Amazon Honor Pay which is generally used for donations. Y!Gallery, which has a lot of adult content, has used Amazon for a long time. You can link it to your bank account and anyone who's able to buy things off Amazon can throw money at you with no problem.

The only downfall I've seen so far? Transactions are refundable for up to a week. Though, this may only exist on the "donator's" end. So if something were to happen and you had to give a refund, I'm not sure how you'd do it (not saying it's impossible, though).
 

pornthulhu

Member
The current poll already shows a tie between commissioning artists and those who can't because "it's too complicated", hopefully this thread will help once I can wrap info up and draw conclusions. :)
 

pornthulhu

Member
Found something very interesting:

Daopay
+ Pay via phone (no accounts or credit cards needed)
+ Nothing about mature material restrictions
+ Anonymous -- even for the buyer.
+ No monthly fees
- 60-90 Days (depending on country) till money is refounded to seller
- Only set % of money will be transferred, high fees.
- Min payout is Euro 50.00 or equivalent, due to of high bank fees
 

pornthulhu

Member
Here's what clubstripes has to say about paypal:

1191817884.clubstripes_nopaypal.gif


Seriously. Stop asking. We sell mainly adult material. Until Paypal changes their policies in writing, on their website, is it smart for ANY business to risk getting fined $2500 per transaction when their own guidelines seem extremely vague and subjective?

Here are the respective links where the text can be found on Paypal's website.

http://anonym.to/?https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/UserAgreement/ua/USUA-outside#biz-policy

http://anonym.to/?https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=HJ9QQhFvNGKwT35ZmbZjh1TWqv8L52dQYhsQT3HB5JJ3tw0vy7jp!-1650576528?locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&cmd=_help-ext&serverInstance=9005&t=solutionTab&ft=browseTab&ps=solutionPanels&solutionTopic=20019&solutionId=38995&isSrch=Yes

(Screenshots taken October 7, 2007)

EDIT: Hey all, it's up to you as to whether you choose to use Paypal or not. I'm just posting this to explain why WE choose not to.
 

pornthulhu

Member
Daopay still seems to be the only anonymous worldwide easy transaction method, but they're share is enormous!
More than 50% if I read that table correctly: http://www.daopay.com/pricing/

Furry artists are already taking less than they should and removing another 50% is excruciating
 

Oni

Member
I am the type of person who sends a personal check, via USPS(United States Postal Service), to the artist for comissions.

Once the my check is cashed and the funds are transferred to the artists account, the comissioned piece is sent to me by the artist via whatever mailing service. That is the usual protocol I follow when making an exchange.

I abide the honor system. ^.^

Very simple, although unsafe regarding thievery and copywrite concept/law.
 

capthavoc123

Master of Disaster
I really appreciate it when artists take checks. That's really the most convenient method of payment for me and I have no problem with waiting for the check to clear before the artist begins work.
 

pornthulhu

Member
EDIT: Copied all my adjacent posts into one.

Alright I have found a few more:

http://www.libertydollar.org/index.php
"Now you can profit from the coming inflation with the inflation proof REAL money - the 100% gold and silver Liberty Dollar."
Much bla bla but I couldn't figure out how to use it so I left it alone for now lol

checkout.google.com
Adult goods and services "Pornography and other sexually suggestive materials" are banned in the Google Checkout: Content policies

2checkout.com
"you may not post on or transmit through the Web Site any data, text, music, sound, photographs, graphics, video, messages or other material ("User Content ") that (i) is defamatory, unlawful, harassing, abusive, threatening, obscene" - obscene is the word. But is pornographical and erotic art really obscene? Besides that seems to be the standard terms in connection to "facilitates terrorism or other activities that risk United States national security" etc. so I'm not sure if they explicitly forbid said art material.

plimus.com
Q: "Can Plimus sell Adult material or Gambling products?"
A: "No, we do not accept any form or Adult material, subscriptions to a website, magazines, books or others. "

charge.com
Monthly fee of Statement/Customer Service Fee $10.00 + Internet Processing Software Gateway Fee of $16.95 per month.

anypay.com
Sounds good, but they're still not ready. And their sign up doesn't work. Looks dubious.

The Odyssee continues... :(




BTW: Anyone using egold here? I read for almost an hour how to and it seems like it's very very complicated and cluttered.
 

pornthulhu

Member
Researched more on e-gold today:

Very interesting article: "PayPal vs. Digital Gold Currency (e-gold)"

Extract:
If you have the money, using an e-gold account will allow you to shop online from anywhere in the world. You do not need a bank account or credit card. You won’t be restricted by borders, currencies or your local banking relationship. Additionally, if you are an online merchant accepting only PayPal or credit cards, you can expand your online sales by becoming a e-gold merchant.
Yes, using e-gold is very different from PayPal and it takes some experience but for many around the globe it may be their only online choice.

More research, found epay.vg:

Problem is when funding money into the epay account there's a $15 fee for a bank transfer to their Offshore bank (for transfers up to USD 10,000). :(
e-gold fee is 4.9%
Pecunix is 2.9%

More, found pecunix.com:
At first the site looks kinda fugly, but once you register it all make sense. It's very slim, basic anonymous and secure, I'm impressed. Still it's complicated to get founds into the account, because just like all the other gold backed accounts you'll have to use a third party vendor to get money into the account. The fees are very low compared to others:
"The payment fee is 0.50% of the payment amount up to 100.00 GAU and 0.15% of any amount over 100.00 GAU to a maximum fee of 3.00 GAU." https://pecunix.com/money.refined...ind.feestructure
1 GAU ~ $23.5 ( https://pecunix.com/money.refined...gld.rates )
And once again I'm stunned at the sheer complexity involved. Sigh.
Besides those third parties also charge fees, so in the end it all adds up to quite a sum.

Others I'll investiage further once I finished Episode 2 :p
money-around-the-world.com, stormpay.com, goldmoney.com, netpay.com, phoenixdollar.com, cyphermint.com, digimoney.lv, e-bullion.com, ecocard.com, ikobo.com, ex-pay.com, wmtransfer.com

HAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA: http://vcash.com
Awesome website they have there, must see! :p

The Odyssee continues... :/
 

pornthulhu

Member
Alright, more of the insanity (some might wonder what I'm doing here, another week and I'll be wondering myself lol):

Some of you might have not noticed yet, but the paypal terms of use changed again, and now they don't allow anything sexual at all:
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside
states: "You may not use the PayPal service for activities that: (...) relate to sales of (...) certain sexually oriented materials or services"
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/UserAgreement/ua/USUA-outside
states: "Using the Service to receive payments for any sexually oriented or obscene materials or services in violation of the Acceptable Use Policy"

That removes the former allowance of mature material on "tangible" goods, e.g. CDs.
So there goes any chance to sell mature oriented art via paypal
Besides I'm reading a lot about frozen accounts in the recent weeks. Sigh. :/

So that also concludes the debate if sexual art is pornography in relation to paypal.

Also I couldn't figure out how to open a donation page with paypal, I gave up on that one. Yes there's a help file about it, but it's outdated! And somehow in a mixture of different languages on the site in my browser I coudn't get through to the donation setup. Sucks.

There's a new service coming from AOL as far as I know:
https://www.revolutionmoneyexchange.com/
If there's a race for the longest financial service domain name, they won.
 

pornthulhu

Member
[size=large]Finally some light at the end of the tunnel!
Let's hope it's not the death star taking a leak.
[/size]


I might have found a way to accept commissions, maybe that's helpful for the shameful minority of us that voted "None! I'd love to but it's too complicated!*" :p

1. Verotel
For running a web subscription service, verotel's ticketclub is the way to go. Seems easy, free maintainance and setup, relatively low fees. But it's only useful if you're running a website, and not so much for commissions. In my case I already know how I could do that + run commissions legally as private member area parts, but that's quite some work.

2. Cash into post office box
At least where I live you can get a numbered post office box, and senders won't have to write the name on their letters. Helps me stay anonymous to the buyer (only for non-fraud artists with some reference lol).
Now here's the question:

[size=large]WOULD YOU SEND CASH VIA MAIL TO AN ARTIST? [/size]

Nahhh, not to me, just in general.

I would, not thousands of Euros/Dollars, but smaller amounts up to 200-300 dollars. Already done that. Until now there wasn't any trouble, and you can insure your shippment for a low fee:
http://www.usps.com/international/intlspecialservices.htm

And on I go... (yes, you're free to laugh at my monologue while getting rich by selling porn art via paypal without having trouble :p )
 

Issarlk

New Member
Here's another way that I see used. Payment in Linden Dollars (L$), the currency of "Second Life", the 3D world.

Basically the buyer send L$ to your SL account ; and then you cash it out via Paypal.

Secondlife:
- Availability (not every buyer plays it)
+ Easy to use (money transfered in-world in a few clicks)
+ Free (but Paypal + SL fee on withdraw)
+ Stable
+ Real Name not Given (you SL account can be named anything, and the buyer will never know what Paypal account you use to withdraw funds)
+ No mature content policy ; as far as they are concerned some guy gives money to another one in the 3D world for some reason they don't care about.
 

pornthulhu

Member
Issarlk, wow, clever idea.
Sadly I couldnt find any info on the exact rates when converting $ to L$ and back.

What I found was:
"Once you sell your L$ on the LindeX, then, if I'm not mistaken, you proceed to the Process Credit page: https://secure-web6.secondlife.com/account/process-credit.php
There's also a fee when you cash out. This page gives some details: https://secure-web6.secondlife.com/account/process-credit.php
As of 6/24/2007, the fee is $1 if you cash out via a PayPal payment being sent to you by Linden Labs."

So does that mean you'll pay one for that LindeX, then to transfer to paypal?

Thanks :)
 
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