Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting July!

[Mircea]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Ok, your last post was an outright idiotic one Term. Your main purpose is to pick a fight with me, and find ways to explain why a horrible initiative isn't really that bad, probably because you're pissed you would get less money if this thing doesn't go in practice. You can calm down... passing this stupid initiative won't raise your salary. I explained what I think using clear points and detail, which you are either too stupid to see or don't wish to see... but please don't accuse me of not mentioning them. And with your angry dictator attitude, don't expect me to bother reading all your questions in detail and finding answers for them. There's a limit to the stupidities I can multitask over at once.

Along the things you accuse me of without using any judgement is that I said "others have no rights". Amazing, since just a post above I stated exactly the opposite in clear words. You and your fat greedy companies have rights as long as you don't take away ours (eg: the right to use the internet). Either directly or indirectly, through initiatives like this which pretend to be innocent. I already explained how this would affect normal users too. If someone who gives me the impression of being calm and lucid states otherwise (not your case or Randy's), I will try to do so again.

I'll answer your question however... so maybe others can read the answer since you refuse to see what I'm saying: If I made a mod and someone copied and sold it, yes I would feel bad. I wouldn't mind if the moderators of the website he's doing it on take him down either, and would especially want people to know what he is doing so they are aware I'm the original owner. But at the same time, I would never agree with the structure of the internet being put in danger to prevent it, and for tactics of censorship being used. If there wasn't any way to reason with the person or someone else who can solve the problem locally, I'd deal with it.

Also, if that's your vision of people who don't have jobs and still live with their parents, you disgust me good sir. You think people shouldn't have any concerns in their life but how to pay their bills? Well yeah, that's actually normal, since the world you live in is all about that. Companies, lots of money, etc. Of course having money to live and pay for everything is important (remember not to accuse me I said otherwise), but people who have a life do have some additional concerns too at the same time. You know... aren't brainless robots who only know how to screw others to make money, that sort of weird stuff.

 

[Sar]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

If I had a Pound for every Internet Censorship thread this year...

 

[CannonFodder]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

If I had a Pound for every Internet Censorship thread this year...

... you'd be as large as Gabe Newell.

 

[Term_the_Schmuck]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Ok, your last post was an outright idiotic one Term. Your main purpose is to pick a fight with me, and find ways to explain why a horrible initiative isn't really that bad, probably because you're pissed you would get less money if this thing doesn't go in practice. You can calm down... passing this stupid initiative won't raise your salary. I explained what I think using clear points and detail, which you are either too stupid to see or don't wish to see... but please don't accuse me of not mentioning them. And with your angry dictator attitude, don't expect me to bother reading all your questions in detail and finding answers for them. There's a limit to the stupidities I can multitask over at once.

Aren't we high and mighty all of a sudden? Ask yourself this: why is this a "horrible initiative?" Because so far the only thing you've thrown out at us is "MAKING LAWS IS BAD" without actually discussing this initiative. Your paranoia is blinding you to actually thinking about this policy and instead you're blindly saying every initiative to curtail piracy is some sort of grave offense against humanity. Spare us.

Along the things you accuse me of without using any judgement is that I said "others have no rights". Amazing, since just a post above I stated exactly the opposite in clear words. You and your fat greedy companies have rights as long as you don't take away ours (eg: the right to use the internet). Either directly or indirectly, through initiatives like this which pretend to be innocent. I already explained how this would affect normal users too. If someone who gives me the impression of being calm and lucid states otherwise (not your case or Randy's), I will try to do so again.

Please tell me where this "right" to use te Internet is written down. And while you're at it, explain how this initiative supposedly is going to keep people from using the internet. Because right now the only thing this initiative is doing is specifically targeting those people who engage in piracy and activities which threaten copyrights over the Internet. Once again you're blowing the consequences here out of proportion as if someone were going to jail for jaywalking. What you're gettin with this initiative from what I've seen is comparable to our infraction system on this very forum. If you commit enough offenses here, you're temp banned. Likewise the same consequences appear to happen in this case where you will be required to attend a class on copyright infringement. As far as penalties go, these seem very light to me without blacklisting you from comin on FAF and bitching and moaning about the evil corporations.

I'll answer your question however... so maybe others can read the answer since you refuse to see what I'm saying: If I made a mod and someone copied and sold it, yes I would feel bad. I wouldn't mind if the moderators of the website he's doing it on take him down either, and would especially want people to know what he is doing so they are aware I'm the original owner. But at the same time, I would never agree with the structure of the internet being put in danger to prevent it, and for tactics of censorship being used. If there wasn't any way to reason with the person or someone else who can solve the problem locally, I'd deal with it.

And you're back I using the word censorship which isn't what this is. This is about people hosting content thy doesn't belong to them. People can view or consume the content in a legit means, so the content itself isn't being censored. In the case of MegaUpload, the site was seized because t was part of a larger operation which knowingly and willingly hosted copyrighted content. Please note the KNOWINGLY AND WILLINGY phrasing because that is key to what we are talking about with a site being seized by the US Government or would be subject to being shut down by some other means.

And of course you'll deal with it. Because money isn't much of an issue for someone who isn't paying rent for example. :V

Also, if that's your vision of people who don't have jobs and still live with their parents, you disgust me good sir. You think people shouldn't have any concerns in their life but how to pay their bills? Well yeah, that's actually normal, since the world you live in is all about that. Companies, lots of money, etc. Of course having money to live and pay for everything is important (remember not to accuse me I said otherwise), but people who have a life do have some additional concerns too at the same time. You know... aren't brainless robots who only know how to screw others to make money, that sort of weird stuff.

I figured as long as you were going to generalize people in the entertainment industry and people who run businesses as greedy fat cats, I might as well generalize you as the pizza faced selfish slob who has no concept about how businesses operate or any concept of the cost of producing the type of professional content you're so willingly downloading because at the end of the day, you're not actually concerned with any innocent person who may be hurt by an abuse of a policy, but moreso your own selfish desire to have content delivered to you without being inconvienenced to actually work for something to pay for the fruit of someone else's time, sweat, blood, talent, and education.

The same mentality that can be seen by most commissioners over on FA. I look forward to seeing you're next post saying "oh Term y u so mean u just like the mean corporations" because I turn your generalizing bullshit back on you. The only thing that's being confirmed is how absolutely dense you are over this whole thing.

 

[Randy-Darkshade]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Along the things you accuse me of without using any judgement is that I said "others have no rights". Amazing, since just a post above I stated exactly the opposite in clear words. You and your fat greedy companies have rights as long as you don't take away ours (eg: the right to use the internet). Either directly or indirectly, through initiatives like this which pretend to be innocent. I already explained how this would affect normal users too. If someone who gives me the impression of being calm and lucid states otherwise (not your case or Randy's), I will try to do so again.

Everyone has a right to use the internet, however if someone is abusing it by doing illegal activities then they should have that right suspended or completely revoked depending on the severity of the case. I think, like Term said, people are worrying over nothing. Even if an innocent person did get caught up in it there would be such a media outburst that something would have to be done. Big corporations like to keep a clean reputation and are not likely going to do anything that would tarnish it as they rely on consumers like us. If ISP's and the big corporations start busting innocent people it will look bad on them and they will likely start loosing customers and no corporation wants a financial loss.

They'd be more interested in targeting the big piraters anyway. Police target the drug dealers more over those who buy it from the dealer to use. Why? because you do more damage removing the source than removing the users. It's more likely that ISP's will target the frequent down loaders/distributors than the one offs or law abiding citizens.

So, to be honest, I can't see the innocent one's being caught up in anything.

I'll answer your question however... so maybe others can read the answer since you refuse to see what I'm saying: If I made a mod and someone copied and sold it, yes I would feel bad. I wouldn't mind if the moderators of the website he's doing it on take him down either, and would especially want people to know what he is doing so they are aware I'm the original owner. But at the same time, I would never agree with the structure of the internet being put in danger to prevent it, and for tactics of censorship being used. If there wasn't any way to reason with the person or someone else who can solve the problem locally, I'd deal with it.

It doesn't matter if someone is poor, middle class or super rich, at the end of the day they have a right to protect their creations.

Also, if that's your vision of people who don't have jobs and still live with their parents, you disgust me good sir. You think people shouldn't have any concerns in their life but how to pay their bills? Well yeah, that's actually normal, since the world you live in is all about that. Companies, lots of money, etc. Of course having money to live and pay for everything is important (remember not to accuse me I said otherwise), but people who have a life do have some additional concerns too at the same time. You know... aren't brainless robots who only know how to screw others to make money, that sort of weird stuff.

I'm sad to say I can agree with you completely on this. I'm also jobless and finding one in this shit hole is next to impossible. I do however think that a lot of people these days spend way to much time on the internet.

Also, as a side note, it's not a right to use the internet, it's a privilage. Learn the difference before you start calling everything a "right"

 

[Mircea]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Term: First of all, you started your post by accusing me of things I didn't do... again. I stated why it's horrible with clear points, so many times that it's not even funny. Saying I'm accusing without discussing the initiative is weird... I think you typed that out without even being conscious of what you were writing. No, not "every initiative to stop piracy is automatically horrible", just those that involve bringing down websites, disconnecting users off the internet, or bringing the police to a user's door. Something which again, I said previously. But because I have nothing better to do right now, I will sum what I said here many times again.

When I first heard about this, I understood that ISP's (or this third party group with their help) would have the right to spy on the traffic of their users, so they could what they are transferring. Which would have meant sniffing their packets and see every single bit of unencrypted data they are transferring, even private emails. Someone later stated that they might only be spying on torrent trackers, to see which IP is downloading what. Which is indeed 10 times less horrible, but still horrible IMO. First of all I'm automatically worried about how this could be abused and how it would advance.

Advance: Torrents are just one way of downloading... and even so can be encrypted easily. There will instantly be ways to download directly, download with a hidden IP, and for this purpose it will be like nothing happened. Therefore looking at some IP lists will not be of much help eventually, so they'll either have to move further on or cancel this whole project (else they'll be paying people to monitor nothing). Knowing companies, they'll prefer to do everything in their power to look at other types of downloads rather than retreat, so they'll keep punching us with legal initiatives until they will be allowed to spy all of our transfers. And at that point, they will be given the right to see everything we do, our private emails, what we talk with our boss at work, how many times we have cyber-sex, etc.

Abuse: Even if this group is spying on torrent trackers, they still see what each IP downloads. And, they can tell what that is to an ISP. That ISP can take any measures it wants, likely without having to respond in any legal way. And finding out a person's information based on IP address isn't all that hard either. So... what else could this be used for other than copyright? I believe a lot. Let's say some dude is torrenting a porn video which does not infringe copyright (gay porn, furry porn, something nasty, bla bla bla). He has to know that somewhere out there, a corporation is paid to look at him downloading that, who might be drinking soda in front of the screen and laughing at him. Also that his name and address can be easily found, especially if the ones doing the monitoring happen to have friends among your ISP and tells them about it, who can easily check what name and address that account is registered to. Now because that ISP can take any measures it sees fit and might be an asshole, he might invent copyright claims against you or punishing you for no stated reason, just to troll you because you downloaded some weird porn. He doesn't even need to make it obvious... if he's drunk that night he might simply cut your connection to that torrent temporarily for shits and giggles, without you finding out. That's probably where we get to using the word censorship.

Next we need to consider false negatives. Let's face it... the people monitoring might have no idea how the internet even works. While ISP's are good with networking, but not with knowing what a community usually does and what might be copyrighted or not. People make works they release under licenses like GPL, MIT, Creative Commons or Public Domain... which can be games, movies, music, and more. Before they take a decision, they need to know if what you are downloading is legal or not. And some of those people might not even know about free licenses and such (a few of them). So there's a high chance that when you download an ok movie or song or program, you might get the ISP at your door bitching and moaning, and have to go through a whole procedure of explaining him you did nothing wrong. The process might repeat several times. Some do have better things to do with their time.

Those are two main issues and concerns. Next one is that, any new initiative to control the internet will encourage companies and SOPA / PIPA / ACTA fanatics. They'll want more... so we might see a new wave of internet regulation initiatives shortly after this. Do realize that if such groups got to regulate the internet, hell WOULD break lose. eg: Free music / movies / software might get abusively restricted to further encourage buying their stuff instead. And ISP's can make it seem like a website goes down every few hours a day from technical reasons. Well theoretically they can already do this if they wanted, but this move would encourage it and make it easier. Obviously this would only happen in practice if the world really hits rock bottom... I'm simply explaining what those corporations would want and dream of IF they had the power to put their will in practice.

Lastly, from the list of things I can remember now, is the more controversial part: Whether some like it or not, there ARE nice and legit internet users who download a movie or song every few months, and seed it in the process, without practicing piracy on a large scale. Sure, I'm one of them... crucifixion anyone? My point is that those people might be subject to harassment they might not deserve (not me, I have enough IP hiding skills if needed). Including the fear of being left without internet, which anyone can agree is a crucial thing for anyone at this day. I believe even people in top security prisons should have the right to be on the internet today. Sure, whether a user deserves a certain punishment or not can be debated... but considering false negatives and other possible issues I think this will make some people automatically afraid to download anything, both legit and otherwise.

I hope this time my points are clear for everyone to see. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go for a while and get my mind on something nicer. Maybe listen to some music to calm down, it helps a lot... oh wait I downloaded it some years ago, I have no right to

 

[Randy-Darkshade]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Term: First of all, you started your post by accusing me of things I didn't do... again. I stated why it's horrible with clear points, so many times that it's not even funny. Saying I'm accusing without discussing the initiative is weird... I think you typed that out without even being conscious of what you were writing. No, not "every initiative to stop piracy is automatically horrible", just those that involve bringing down websites, disconnecting users off the internet, or bringing the police to a user's door. Something which again, I said previously. But because I have nothing better to do right now, I will sum what I said here many times again.

If an internet user breaks the law then they should have the police knocking on their door and their internet privileges revoked.

When I first heard about this, I understood that ISP's (or this third party group with their help) would have the right to spy on the traffic of their users, so they could what they are transferring. Which would have meant sniffing their packets and see every single bit of unencrypted data they are transferring, even private emails. Someone later stated that they might only be spying on torrent trackers, to see which IP is downloading what. Which is indeed 10 times less horrible, but still horrible IMO. First of all I'm automatically worried about how this could be abused and how it would advance.

You mean like how piraters abuse the internet? anything can be abused, absolutely anything.

Advance: Torrents are just one way of downloading... and even so can be encrypted easily. There will instantly be ways to download directly, download with a hidden IP, and for this purpose it will be like nothing happened. Therefore looking at some IP lists will not be of much help eventually, so they'll either have to move further on or cancel this whole project (else they'll be paying people to monitor nothing). Knowing companies, they'll prefer to do everything in their power to look at other types of downloads rather than retreat, so they'll keep punching us with legal initiatives until they will be allowed to spy all of our transfers. And at that point, they will be given the right to see everything we do, our private emails, what we talk with our boss at work, how many times we have cyber-sex, etc.

So basically, this concept scares you because you don;t want people to know what you do online, which tells me you have things to hide. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.

Abuse: Even if this group is spying on torrent trackers, they still see what each IP downloads. And, they can tell what that is to an ISP. That ISP can take any measures it wants, likely without having to respond in any legal way. And finding out a person's information based on IP address isn't all that hard either. So... what else could this be used for other than copyright? I believe a lot. Let's say some dude is torrenting a porn video which does not infringe copyright (gay porn, furry porn, something nasty, bla bla bla). He has to know that somewhere out there, a corporation is paid to look at him downloading that, who might be drinking soda in front of the screen and laughing at him. Also that his name and address can be easily found, especially if the ones doing the monitoring happen to have friends among your ISP and tells them about it, who can easily check what name and address that account is registered to. Now because that ISP can take any measures it sees fit and might be an asshole, he might invent copyright claims against you or punishing you for no stated reason, just to troll you because you downloaded some weird porn. He doesn't even need to make it obvious... if he's drunk that night he might simply cut your connection to that torrent temporarily for shits and giggles, without you finding out. That's probably where we get to using the word censorship.

You really are looking too deep into this. You're worried about things that are as likely to happen as me fucking the pope.

Next we need to consider false negatives. Let's face it... the people monitoring might have no idea how the internet even works.

w2hat? I fucking doubt they'd employ idiots who don't know how to use the internet. They'd employ people that do know what they are doing and are trained to look for certain things. They're not going to employ blind, one armed monkeys ya know.

While ISP's are good with networking, but not with knowing what a community usually does and what might be copyrighted or not. People make works they release under licenses like GPL, MIT, Creative Commons or Public Domain... which can be games, movies, music, and more. Before they take a decision, they need to know if what you are downloading is legal or not. And some of those people might not even know about free licenses and such (a few of them). So there's a high chance that when you download an ok movie or song or program, you might get the ISP at your door bitching and moaning, and have to go through a whole procedure of explaining him you did nothing wrong. The process might repeat several times. Some do have better things to do with their time.

Which as I said in my last post, is another reason why they'd most likely target the big time pirates.

Lastly, from the list of things I can remember now, is the more controversial part: Whether some like it or not, there ARE nice and legit internet users who download a movie or song every few months,

Well they are not legit then are they. If they seed a download so people can obtain it for free (such as the movie and music examples you gave) then it's classed as pirating. So please tell me how this makes a person "legit" in your book.

and seed it in the process, without practicing piracy on a large scale. Sure, I'm one of them... crucifixion anyone?

Now we get to the real reason you don;t like this law. You're a pirater (by your own confession) and you don't want to be caught.

My point is that those people might be subject to harassment they might not deserve (not me, I have enough IP hiding skills if needed).

I've already lost a lot of respect for you. You seem to think it's perfectly fine to pirate stuff that you do not have the right too purely because it comes from, in your words "big greedy corporations" This is the real fucking reason you don't like this law but you wont admit it.

Including the fear of being left without internet,

Because you're scared of being caught pirating.

which anyone can agree is a crucial thing for anyone at this day. I believe even people in top security prisons should have the right to be on the internet today. Sure, whether a user deserves a certain punishment or not can be debated... but considering false negatives and other possible issues I think this will make some people automatically afraid to download anything, both legit and otherwise.

Why would someone in prison even NEED the internet? they going to order bombs from Amazon or something? Prisoners are in prison as punishment, not for a vacation but that is entirely a different discussion. I'm not affraid to DL legit stuff. This is just some BS from you to cover up the fact you pirate stuff and don;t wanna loose that privilege.

I hope this time my points are clear for everyone to see. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go for a while and get my mind on something nicer. Maybe listen to some music to calm down, it helps a lot... oh wait I downloaded it some years ago, I have no right to [/QUOTE]

 

[Xenke]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

When I first heard about this, I understood that ISP's (or this third party group with their help) would have the right to spy on the traffic of their users, so they could what they are transferring. Which would have meant sniffing their packets and see every single bit of unencrypted data they are transferring, even private emails. Someone later stated that they might only be spying on torrent trackers, to see which IP is downloading what. Which is indeed 10 times less horrible, but still horrible IMO. First of all I'm automatically worried about how this could be abused and how it would advance.

What are you doing on the internet that has you so concerned about if your ISP is actively looking at what you're doing? The fact of the matter is they don't care if John Q Nobody is playing Neopets or sending an email to their professor or looking at naked women; these companies have a problem with people using their service to pirate media and that's what they're focusing on.

Advance: Torrents are just one way of downloading... and even so can be encrypted easily. There will instantly be ways to download directly, download with a hidden IP, and for this purpose it will be like nothing happened. Therefore looking at some IP lists will not be of much help eventually, so they'll either have to move further on or cancel this whole project (else they'll be paying people to monitor nothing). Knowing companies, they'll prefer to do everything in their power to look at other types of downloads rather than retreat, so they'll keep punching us with legal initiatives until they will be allowed to spy all of our transfers. And at that point, they will be given the right to see everything we do, our private emails, what we talk with our boss at work, how many times we have cyber-sex, etc.

Paranoia is assuming the worst possible outcome without actually having any data to believe it'll come to fruition. Again, ISPs don't really care about any of the information that you're describing (unless the cyber-sex is with a child or something), and while they might search through it (if it even ever comes to this), the data they contain will be screened and quickly forgotten.

Abuse: Even if this group is spying on torrent trackers, they still see what each IP downloads. And, they can tell what that is to an ISP. That ISP can take any measures it wants, likely without having to respond in any legal way. And finding out a person's information based on IP address isn't all that hard either. So... what else could this be used for other than copyright? I believe a lot. Let's say some dude is torrenting a porn video which does not infringe copyright (gay porn, furry porn, something nasty, bla bla bla). He has to know that somewhere out there, a corporation is paid to look at him downloading that, who might be drinking soda in front of the screen and laughing at him. Also that his name and address can be easily found, especially if the ones doing the monitoring happen to have friends among your ISP and tells them about it, who can easily check what name and address that account is registered to. Now because that ISP can take any measures it sees fit and might be an asshole, he might invent copyright claims against you or punishing you for no stated reason, just to troll you because you downloaded some weird porn. He doesn't even need to make it obvious... if he's drunk that night he might simply cut your connection to that torrent temporarily for shits and giggles, without you finding out. That's probably where we get to using the word censorship.

Haha, wow. Unlikely hypothetical situations are fun man.

Tell me, honestly, do you think someone would honestly risk their job to toy with someone downloading porn? You know, that job that pays them, so they can house and feed themselves?

You seem to forget that despite ISPs doing something you don't agree with, they still have internal standards, and you know, laws that prevent ISPs from disclosing "personally identifiable information".

Next we need to consider false negatives. Let's face it... the people monitoring might have no idea how the internet even works. While ISP's are good with networking, but not with knowing what a community usually does and what might be copyrighted or not. People make works they release under licenses like GPL, MIT, Creative Commons or Public Domain... which can be games, movies, music, and more. Before they take a decision, they need to know if what you are downloading is legal or not. And some of those people might not even know about free licenses and such (a few of them). So there's a high chance that when you download an ok movie or song or program, you might get the ISP at your door bitching and moaning, and have to go through a whole procedure of explaining him you did nothing wrong. The process might repeat several times. Some do have better things to do with their time.

Call this a hunch, but I'm starting to get the feeling that you think that whoever will be monitoring this will be manually sorting through every incoming connection looking for piracy.

I can guarantee you that's not how it'll work.

They will probably target and monitor specific torrents, namely ones distributing content from big name publishers, and acting upon that. I highly doubt that they have an interest employing enough drones to sort through every P2P connection, much less every piece of data that passes through the ISP, as doing so is both ineffective and costly.

Those are two main issues and concerns. Next one is that, any new initiative to control the internet will encourage companies and SOPA / PIPA / ACTA fanatics. They'll want more... so we might see a new wave of internet regulation initiatives shortly after this. Do realize that if such groups got to regulate the internet, hell WOULD break lose. eg: Free music / movies / software might get abusively restricted to further encourage buying their stuff instead. And ISP's can make it seem like a website goes down every few hours a day from technical reasons. Well theoretically they can already do this if they wanted, but this move would encourage it and make it easier. Obviously this would only happen in practice if the world really hits rock bottom... I'm simply explaining what those corporations would want and dream of IF they had the power to put their will in practice.

Slippery slope mentality? Don't even start.

Given that not every ISP is signing on to this, if this ere to happen the ones that had opted out would not only receive added business, but the ones participating in these practices would literally kill themselves.

Lastly, from the list of things I can remember now, is the more controversial part: Whether some like it or not, there ARE nice and legit internet users who download a movie or song every few months, and seed it in the process, without practicing piracy on a large scale. Sure, I'm one of them... crucifixion anyone? My point is that those people might be subject to harassment they might not deserve (not me, I have enough IP hiding skills if needed).

"I only infringe copyright occasionally, I don't deserve to face consequences of this!"

lmao.

Sure, whether a user deserves a certain punishment or not can be debated... but considering false negatives and other possible issues I think this will make some people automatically afraid to download anything, both legit and otherwise.

No... for most sane people I think it just makes them cautious about downloading stuff they don't have the rights to.

I hope this time my points are clear for everyone to see. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go for a while and get my mind on something nicer. Maybe listen to some music to calm down, it helps a lot... oh wait I downloaded it some years ago, I have no right to

Your points were never unclear.

They're just crazy.

 

[AshleyAshes]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

If an internet user breaks the law then they should have the police knocking on their door and their internet privileges revoked.

For FUCKS SAKE, downloading pirated material isn't a crime. I don't mean that in some philosophical kinda way either, I mean in a legal way. In many places it is ILLEGAL, yes, but not a CRIME. It is a matter of CIVIL law, not CRIMINAL law.

I can literally sit down next to a police officer, open my laptop and start downloading a pirated copy of something, tell the guy all about it and he can't interupt. Civil law isn't his area, he doesn't have the authority to act.

 

[Mircea]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

@ Randy-Darkshade: I believe your thinking is very simple and a bit naive on this. First of all, I have things to hide online. Not because they're illegal, but because I don't need the whole world to know everything I do and what I talk with people. Expecting someone to have nothing to hide is silly and really odd... the world isn't one big family like in the Coca-Cola Christmas commercials. I have private emails, chat logs with friends, and much more of legal nature.

Otherwise, I love how the moment I stated I occasionally download a song or film, the instant conclusion was "you're a pirate and that's why you hate this thing". That's simple thinking at its best. 0.1% of what I do online is downloading these things... which is just getting the albums of some bands I like and some old anime films older than 10 years (and Microsoft Windows xD). 99,9% is doing perfectly legit things... like browsing FA, playing and contributing to FOSS games and software, animating and modelling, occasionally drawing, being in MineCraft or Second Life, chatting with friends, and generally trying to do interesting techy stuff. You can be sure I'm much more worried over that 99.9% than the 0.1%. Also, I have more serious topics that make me ask myself if I'm a bad person or not in life, than listening to some songs for free. I find it a problem that anyone who downloads something copyrighted is qualified as a person who does that as a primary purpose, almost like other things they do on the internet are secondary, when it's by far the other way around.

Since some are invoking that my points are paranoid or crazy (which I don't contest about the first thing): Weren't you around when the SOPA craze started (for some reason this always pops back into discussion)? At first I thought I was paranoid back then... till I realized it's really bad and soon saw the largest websites of the world blacking out in protest. I don't remember for how many days that was the only thing I was looking at and worked on fighting, and there was more back then that I prefer not to mention. Soon after, I was in the street protesting against ACTA next to a few thousand people, at freezing cold temperatures. The protest was in all of Europe, and those who were there weren't either paranoid nor there to defend piracy. Then things calmed down, and now after about 3 months I hear about this shit and that the UK almost made it legal to spy on all emails and web traffic as well as phone calls. Yeah... I have no reasons to be paranoid Just wondering what we deserve this shit for, apart from downloading a song and cracked Windows in our life (which was NOT the reason I was actually scared of these laws).

 

[Xenke]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Otherwise, I love how the moment I stated I occasionally download a song or film, the instant conclusion was "you're a pirate and that's why you hate this thing". That's simple thinking at its best. 0.1% of what I do online is downloading these things... which is just getting the albums of some bands I like and some old anime films older than 10 years (and Microsoft Windows xD). 99,9% is doing perfectly legit things... like browsing FA, playing and contributing to FOSS games and software, animating and modelling, occasionally drawing, being in MineCraft or Second Life, chatting with friends, and generally trying to do interesting techy stuff. You can be sure I'm much more worried over that 99.9% than the 0.1%. Also, I have more serious topics that make me ask myself if I'm a bad person or not in life, than listening to some songs for free. I find it a problem that anyone who downloads something copyrighted is qualified as a person who does that as a primary purpose, almost like other things they do on the internet are secondary, when it's by far the other way around.

Since some are invoking that my points are paranoid or crazy (which I don't contest about the first thing): Weren't you around when the SOPA craze started (for some reason this always pops back into discussion)? At first I thought I was paranoid back then... till I realized it's really bad and soon saw the largest websites of the world blacking out in protest. I don't remember for how many days that was the only thing I was looking at and worked on fighting, and there was more back then that I prefer not to mention. Soon after, I was in the street protesting against ACTA next to a few thousand people, at freezing cold temperatures. The protest was in all of Europe, and those who were there weren't either paranoid nor there to defend piracy. Then things calmed down, and now after about 3 months I hear about this shit and that the UK almost made it legal to spy on all emails and web traffic as well as phone calls. Yeah... I have no reasons to be paranoid Just wondering what we deserve this shit for, apart from downloading a song and cracked Windows in our life (which was NOT the reason I was actually scared of these laws).

Well I'm done, you seem to completely disregard my points on what ISPs actually care about and the legal limitations placed on them that keep them from divulging any information that can actually identify you.

 

[Mircea]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Well I'm done, you seem to completely disregard my points on what ISPs actually care about and the legal limitations placed on them that keep them from divulging any information that can actually identify you.

I have taken notice of this info, but after past events just find it hard to be trusting that it will stay that way. A lot of things are different than what's officially stated... but I did take notice it's not the same thing.

 

[AshleyAshes]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Simple fact: If there was actually a large amount of credible evidence that ISPs violated the privacy rights of it's customers, there would be class action law suits filed against these ISPs, with well trained lawyers eager to get their percentage of the settlement.

...And yet... Nuffin. You think it happens 'alllllll the time' but no lawyers going 'There's a tonne of cash to be squeezed out of these privacy rights violating corporations. :3'?

 

[Mircea]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

For now, I'm waiting to see what happens. There was good news since I started the thread, and hopefully nothing worrying will actually happen, whatever their main intentions are. Still glad this was discussed, although the whole thing gets tiring after a while.

 

[KigRatel]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

For now, I'm waiting to see what happens. There was good news since I started the thread, and hopefully nothing worrying will actually happen, whatever their main intentions are. Still glad this was discussed, although the whole thing gets tiring after a while.

See, what'd I tell ya? No consequence whatsoever. This always happens with these doomsaying threads.

 

[Randy-Darkshade]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

snip

My thinking might be simple to you because I'm not worrying about the if, buts and maybes that haven't happened yet. I'm just a "We'll cross that bridge when we get to it" kinda guy.

As for cracked windows my XP disc is cracked but I didn't DL it myself. A friend gave it to me er....quite some time ago now. However when ever I have wanted a movie my first thoughts have been to go out and buy it instead of DL it. I don't have any file sharing software on here anymore.

 

[Term_the_Schmuck]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Other people have commented for me, but I think I'll hit on some of the big points I see with the post that was directed at me.

Term: First of all, you started your post by accusing me of things I didn't do... again. I stated why it's horrible with clear points, so many times that it's not even funny. Saying I'm accusing without discussing the initiative is weird... I think you typed that out without even being conscious of what you were writing. No, not "every initiative to stop piracy is automatically horrible", just those that involve bringing down websites, disconnecting users off the internet, or bringing the police to a user's door. Something which again, I said previously. But because I have nothing better to do right now, I will sum what I said here many times again.

You're actively comparing this policy with SOPA, just as everyone did with CISPA when neither of these things is anything like SOPA. You're claiming that this policy is somehow "worse" than any of the legislative attempts before it because.....well we don't know.

Your OP lists that the government is significantly involved with this policy, which it isn't. You're primary concern is some "abuse of power" which frankly isn't enough reason for something like this not to be implemented. "Because abuses may happen" hasn't stopped FAF from hiring members on as mods, even when abuses of power have happened. If we didn't enact policies or laws for the sole reason of "possible abuse" absolutely nothing would get done, and the excuse can be universally used to downplay just about anything. It's a lame cop-out unless it's backed with some hard evidence that abuse will most likely happen, which you can't prove but only speculate on.

Likewise as I've previously mentioned you're still misrepresenting the penalties associated with violating this policy. As your CNet article points out, ISPs have said that their intention isn't to blacklist anyone from ever being able to access the internet, but to educate their users on what piracy and copyright infringement is. If they are ignored, then their customers will have to start signing statements saying they won't continue their behavior. If they still don't pay attention, well then it become unclear what will happen, though shutting off someone's internet isn't exactly the most ideal solution because the last thing an ISP would want is to lose a customer who is paying their monthly bills on-time. Police aren't getting involved, stop trying to make this seem like it's some sort of sting operation where SWAT is going to come in and wreck yo' shit because you downloaded the new Taking Back Sunday album.

When I first heard about this, I understood that ISP's (or this third party group with their help) would have the right to spy on the traffic of their users, so they could what they are transferring.

Which they already do to comply with law enforcement inquires as to what your online activity has been as long as they can produce a warrant. You claim to be a computer nerd but you don't realize that damn near everything you do already can be tracked back to you? And what interest do they have in seeking Joe Schmoe out who's done absolutely nothing wrong? As Xenke mentioned, whether or not you believe it ISPs aren't going to hire on legions of people to spend 8 hours a day watching what you do online to build up a case against you. Penn and Teller did a Bullshit! experiment on people doing surveillance work on people suspected of doing something wrong. I won't spoil it for you, just skip to 4:20 in the video below:

[yt]SNtTBNmOW-A[/yt]

ABUSE!!!!!11!!1

Again, your hypothetical sucks and the threat isn't exactly compelling. Also, other internet users have ways to do the exact same thing to you for shits and giggles, and have done so to numerous people as can easily be seen by going on Encyclopedia Dramatica and looking up any number of lolcows. Whereas a company would keep this information confidential and for internal use only, the average nerd can and likely will post up the embarrasing details of your online sex life/cub porn fascination for all the world to see including dox because "I did it 4 teh lulz". I think I'd trust the company more.

Next we need to consider false negatives. Let's face it... the people monitoring might have no idea how the internet even works. While ISP's are good with networking, but not with knowing what a community usually does and what might be copyrighted or not. People make works they release under licenses like GPL, MIT, Creative Commons or Public Domain... which can be games, movies, music, and more. Before they take a decision, they need to know if what you are downloading is legal or not. And some of those people might not even know about free licenses and such (a few of them). So there's a high chance that when you download an ok movie or song or program, you might get the ISP at your door bitching and moaning, and have to go through a whole procedure of explaining him you did nothing wrong. The process might repeat several times. Some do have better things to do with their time.

Your justifications are having more "but what ifs" than a typical furry thread theme. Again, if we based all decision making solely on a "what if" then absolutely nothing would get done. And your what if scenario doesn't even work in the same continuity. I mean, you yourself were at one point trying to say that someone monitoring online interactions would be an expert, and now you're saying those same experts aren't experts. Which is it? Because this kind of cherry-picking logic doesn't fly in the real world when decisions need to be made.

Those are two main issues and concerns. Next one is that, any new initiative to control the internet will encourage companies and SOPA / PIPA / ACTA fanatics. They'll want more... so we might see a new wave of internet regulation initiatives shortly after this. Do realize that if such groups got to regulate the internet, hell WOULD break lose. eg: Free music / movies / software might get abusively restricted to further encourage buying their stuff instead. And ISP's can make it seem like a website goes down every few hours a day from technical reasons. Well theoretically they can already do this if they wanted, but this move would encourage it and make it easier. Obviously this would only happen in practice if the world really hits rock bottom... I'm simply explaining what those corporations would want and dream of IF they had the power to put their will in practice.

Slippery slope cop-out excuse with speculation on what companies want to do in order to confirm with your irrational paranoia of all things anti-piracy.

Lastly, from the list of things I can remember now, is the more controversial part: Whether some like it or not, there ARE nice and legit internet users who download a movie or song every few months, and seed it in the process, without practicing piracy on a large scale. Sure, I'm one of them... crucifixion anyone? My point is that those people might be subject to harassment they might not deserve (not me, I have enough IP hiding skills if needed). Including the fear of being left without internet, which anyone can agree is a crucial thing for anyone at this day. I believe even people in top security prisons should have the right to be on the internet today. Sure, whether a user deserves a certain punishment or not can be debated... but considering false negatives and other possible issues I think this will make some people automatically afraid to download anything, both legit and otherwise.

Even more bullshit logic. Using your logic, it's perfectly socially acceptable for someone to cheat on their significant other just as long as they're a generally nice person who only does it once or twice a month. Hey, it ain't against the law baby! Don't judge me!

No, it's still not okay to do it "every once in a while." What you're doing is still wrong and should this policy be enacted, then you'll be notified what you're doing is wrong multiple times before any real mitigating action will be taken, which as I've previously mentioned above does not and will not include locking someone out of the internet.

So in short, your fears are irrational, based solely on speculation with very little understanding of what the policy says or does. And given that you've mentioned already that you skim my posts, probably because it'd just kill you to possibly be wrong about your fears, I can't imagine you bothered reading any of those articles past the headlines once your predetermined bias was confirmed.

 

[Heliophobic]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Wanna team up and make a petition for one? :V

I wonder if Anonymous has seen this yet...

What are they gonna do? Blurt Fight Club references and wear nyan cat shirts?

Has Anon ever actually done anything... you know... important?

 

[Aden]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Has Anon ever actually done anything... you know... important?

caturday.

 

[Heliophobic]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

caturday.

Caturday's only fun on /co/.

obby

 

[Namba]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Dafuq is catgut day?

 

[Heliophobic]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Dafuq is catgut day?

That day of the week when 10 year olds giggle at lolcats and furfags say they have a reason to spam the internet with anthro cat porn.

 

[Traven V]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

If this happens it's going to spark quite a revolution.

 

[Neuron]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

Dude, Mircea, you were talking about wanting to start a goddamn riot over this shit in your FA journal, chill the fuck out, you're one step away from dismissing Term and anyone a bit skeptical as being DISINFO AGENTS to make your point. If anything, that kind of talk of going out in the streets and instigating shit is going to get you suspicious looks from an ISP and possibly law enforcement.

You don't have any sources to back up your point and you're not sounding credible. Everyone is a lot more apt to listen to Term because his credibility in his field has been established and he's been telling you for about 10 posts now that it doesn't take a genius to figure out they don't want to risk jobs and money over bullying teh furries.

Listen, I think we're all willing to agree that there is some manner of privacy that might be abused, but we're just not willing to accept your level of dramatic exaggeration and slippery slope. This is, however, an inevitability that many of us accepted as probably going to come to pass, the days of the internet wild west are over especially with the availability of streaming for so goddamn cheap.

Man, if I wanted to see this level of paranoid fear-mongering with no facts, I'd go to /tinfoil/. Just saying.

 

[Namba]

Re: Devastating internet censorship plan (new SOPA) to be put in practice starting Ju

That day of the week when 10 year olds giggle at lolcats and furfags say they have a reason to spam the internet with anthro cat porn.

Sounds fuckin awesome! :v