KimberVaile
Well-Known Member
I was wondering when the meat is murder argument would show up.
Does anyone else think there's a lot of misanthropes in the fandom?
- Thread starter AustinB
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Sergei Sóhomo
Guest
If we didn't eat meat then a fair bit of animals would already be extinct. We're the reason they're still around~
And if doesn't matter if they don't want to be eaten. They have instincts that drive them and nothing more. If they show the same high level functions as squids and dolphins then yes, I would advocate for them to not be slaughtered, but as of the present they're food
Troj
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dino Therapist
LCS, I know people who certainly deserve the "misanthrope" label, but yeah, I roll my eyes at kids (people under 25) who make a huge production out of being angsty and tortured. "Oh I hate humanity blah blah blah look at me I'm Batman."
Also, dogs are literally the best.
Also, dogs are literally the best.
quoting_mungo
Well-Known Member
It's not animal cruelty to eat any animal. At the point you're eating it (with very few exceptions, and those may well be cruelty cases) it's already dead. What may or may not be cruelty is the path it takes to your plate, and there are separate ethical concerns with eating animals not bred to be eaten (such as, say, stealing someone else's pet dog or riding horse to eat it). If you give it a decent life, kill it humanely, and don't steal it from someone in order to put it on your plate, I really couldn't care less where you get your animal protein from. (Well, okay, don't get it from endangered species. That's a problem, though again not an animal cruelty one.)
Not so hard-wired as all that, I'm afraid. My terrible no-good housemate and his associates regularly steal from their friends soon as they get opportunity. (And their housemates, and their landlord...) And the only reason he's not actively living here is because he decided to take a gun to go threaten one of his friends. I'm not in any way suggesting that he is in any way an upstanding example of humanity's finest, but if we were hard-wired to be nice to our friends he'd not be pulling that shit, yanno?
I'm not sure what you consider "clear signs of empathy" in babies; expression mirroring? Because it actually takes a few years for children to reach a stage of mental development where they are capable of considering others' emotions.
I'm not sure all of them are misanthropes so much as little shits who haven't really realized that people on the Internet are "real people" yet. Obviously some people are, but I think some people just treat the level of abstraction that comes from communicating via the computer as the same kind of step-away-from-reality as when they play a video game. So... a misapplication of the ability to separate fantasy and reality.
Which is kind of natural for a 10-12 year old kid, and part of why they should probably not be permitted to go online without supervision. But when people grow to be in their 20s and 30s and still treat people online as a source of entertainment rather than fellow human beings, you have a problem.
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lupi900
Guest
For the Noise/industrial/gothic/dark ambient based forums/groups good lord yes. It's seems to be a magnet for edgy neckbeards/trolls who never left the i hate humanity teen stage & go on how the styles are dead for even more immature reasons.
D
Deleted member 82554
Guest
I am going to assume that is in reference to me. Don't you find it ironic that you rant on about furries that have been bullied, hurt by other people, only to find you're being one of those people? Always thought of you as better than them, apparently not.
I am many things, Troj, but a "misanthrope" is not one of them.
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Can I eat you? Humans don't seem to be an endangerment species. You already had decent life, you can run, you can squeal, I will catch you and eat you. Also I don't think my pack practices animal cruelty, but it likes to eat its prey alive. It's actually very common. I don't see how eating someone alive can be called inhumane.
Maybe they aren't friends? And anyone can go against their nature, though it's something not pleasant to do, however sometimes you just can't see what else could you do. Mothers kill their babies. Do they like it? No.
Well of course it will take some time for the baby to reach this stage. My point is, it's not something you have to teach. It's natural. Very few people might not develop this feeling and you can't teach them to feel it. They can fake it, but it's not the same.
quoting_mungo
Well-Known Member
If we get on the same plane and crash in Tibet, sure, you may eat my body to survive after I die from the crash or exposure.
If what you wanted to say was "humans are terrible for eating animals full stop", you should have said that, and not argued that it was hypocritical to be okay with eating dogs but not pigs at all. Saying that and then turning around to make a deliberately provocative response when someone says eating dogs is okay as long as they're procured ethically and killed humanely just makes you look trollish, not clever. (Also, my "decent life" has been like 20% depression bullshit, so if that's your measure of giving livestock a nice life you may not want to go into animal welfare. :V ) That your dogs like to eat things alive isn't really an argument for doing so being humane; anyone that's ever seen a cat toying with its prey knows that nature gives no shits about prey being treated humanely.
Look, I'd love to believe that all people are basically decent as much as you, and I do think that most people have the ambition to be decent. But I don't think it's hard-wired into us that we shouldn't take other people's stuff. It's a pretty obvious basic value that most people can agree on, but that doesn't mean that "thou shalt not steal" is something encoded in our brains by nature. It's more likely to be something we've all been taught as small children because it's one of the things that make society go round. (And no, really, these people who keep stealing from each other really are friends. They're just terrible opportunists.)
At 3-5 years old (when most children truly start learning empathy) I'd hardly call a child a "baby" anymore. While it may be something that develops on its own in a limited capacity, it's still a skill that has to be nurtured in order for a child to develop appropriate responses.
Troj
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dino Therapist
Mr. Fox said:
Oh, for Christ's sake. No, it was not in reference to you.
It was a reference to how some young people love to self-indulgently wallow in--and, usually, loudly advertise--their feelings of alienation and angst, and how they will imagine themselves as this-or-that tragic, wounded, misunderstood hero or heroine--Batman, Wolverine, Erik the Phantom, Edward Scissorhands, whatever. (I figured that a reference to either Herman Hesse or Dostoevsky would've been too obscure and a little pretentious.)
The inner narrative in a nutshell is, "Nobody understands me, nobody loves me, but I am special, and they'll all realize it someday and be sorry."
This phase is totally normal and developmentally appropriate--hell, I went through it myself big-time. It's also quaint and/or annoying to people who've outgrown it--even people who themselves are wounded or misanthropic in their own right!
If this doesn't apply to you, then there's no need to take offense. If it does, then this could serve as food for reflection.
Re: Animal cruelty, my understanding is that this is a formal legal term. Killing an animal in order to eat them or harvest their body parts can certainly be called inhumane, unkind, hurtful, or even, cruel from an ethical standpoint, but I don't think it can technically be called "animal cruelty." People may dismiss y'all's argument out of hand if you're caught using these terms incorrectly or haphazardly.
Re: Human nature, Humans are neither perfectly altruistic nor entirely selfish, but a multi-layered and complicated mix of both. Some people are more altruistic, some are more selfish, and a lot of people can be primed to behave either selfishly or altruistically in particular situations--especially since many core drives and basic instincts have both a "dark" side and a "light" side, and can therefore be channeled in either a good or bad direction, depending. Arguably, the hardest revelation to swallow is that people can do incredibly cruel and nasty things with "good" intentions.
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I've recognized a pattern of the misanthropy in the fandom. And I think we should separate two distinct categories of misanthropy in the fandom. One that's based on privilege and one based on victimhood.
The misanthropy based on privilege is usually motivated by escapism, sincerity and rigidity. "I am a fox, dammit! Being human is sooo boring. My fursona, forever and ever!"
The misanthropy based on victimhood is usually motivated by realism, irony and flexibility. "My fursona was made to make a point on how humanity is stupid. I might change it on the way"
The misanthropy based on privilege is usually motivated by escapism, sincerity and rigidity. "I am a fox, dammit! Being human is sooo boring. My fursona, forever and ever!"
The misanthropy based on victimhood is usually motivated by realism, irony and flexibility. "My fursona was made to make a point on how humanity is stupid. I might change it on the way"
Troj
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dino Therapist
^^^This is an interesting and, I think, fairly-accurate observation!
There's a third type of misanthrope who just has trouble connecting with most people due to their unique interests, eccentric personality, high intelligence, or different perspective on the world.
Furries might occasionally claim to be that third type, but I've found it to be less common in the fandom than in other circles.
There's a third type of misanthrope who just has trouble connecting with most people due to their unique interests, eccentric personality, high intelligence, or different perspective on the world.
Furries might occasionally claim to be that third type, but I've found it to be less common in the fandom than in other circles.
I don't like vegos or vegans, the meat is already there, so they are just causing more meat to go to waste, making the animal die in vein.
I guess I count as a misanthingo. Humanity is shit. North Korea, ISIS, the way the world is run to favour the rich. Even the basic things, the people I meet day to day are so ignorant. Simple minded. Sometimes I meet people and think I was glad for having met them, but there are far too many I dislike.
Not really, if supply exceeds demand then they reduce supply.
If someone wants to be vegan or vegetarian for decent reasons, good on them. If they want to stick it in my face and have a go at everyone else about it then they can become part of the supply for all I care.
In a very specific situation where the meat would go to waste, at a dinner away from home or whatever then yeah they may as well eat it, I see where you're coming from.
Not really, if supply exceeds demand then they reduce supply.
If someone wants to be vegan or vegetarian for decent reasons, good on them. If they want to stick it in my face and have a go at everyone else about it then they can become part of the supply for all I care.
In a very specific situation where the meat would go to waste, at a dinner away from home or whatever then yeah they may as well eat it, I see where you're coming from.
Rainbo
New Member
That old saying goes, "Speak o' the Devil and he shall appear." Starting a thread on misanthropy seems to have invited some hint of similar flavor. XD
Generally speaking, I stay away from the kind of people who start nitpicking about how "irrelevant" morals and ethics are, because 9 times out of 10, they're trying to justify some dark horrible corner of their own minds they want to indulge/coddle a little bit. Never once met a "morality is irrelevant" person who didn't turn out to have psychopathic/sociopathic tendencies to some degree or another. I'm certain this doesn't apply to all, but it's enough of a pattern that I just steer clear these days. If you can't agree on a simple "don't murder/rape/etc., it's not okay" then I'll just end up treating you with the utmost distrust, and rightly so, based on years of experience encountering that sort of person.
Misanthropy is just bitterness, typically. And that's not to say that it isn't well-earned in many cases. I would argue that in most cases I'm aware of, people just naturally chose niche ideas or niche hobbies such as furry or tabletop or whatever else, and THEN they ended up bullied, abused, etc. for their differentness (our society is really fixated on status quo, after all, even if beneath the veneer one quickly discovers that there isn't really such a thing as "normal", lol), and then they end up becoming jaded, bitter and misanthropic over time because quite frankly, if they can't even have a hobby or interest without being stomped on for it, I can kinda see why they'd be upset, you know? But yeah, some really get stuck in that place and wallow around in their own self-pity and egotistical whatever, and that gets real annoying and toxic real fast. There are good people and there are bad people, good things and bad things in life, and ultimately it really is a choice we all have to make as to what we focus on and decide to do with the life handed to us. Also, for all I know, they may be struggling with mental illness or something that I'm not aware of, so I dunno.
I mean... I get misanthropic sometimes, usually when I'm having a bad day or just really super frustrated with the world around me or feeling hopelessly surrounded by assholes. But I try (key word: TRY, haha) to remember that the narrow scope of my current viewpoint is narrow, and there's a whole big world out there. Frankly, if I exist, it is virtually guaranteed that somewhere in the world, at least one other person exists who has come to similar conclusions or has some similarities to me. Nobody is ever truly alone, they just feel that way because of their current circumstances.
TL;DR I really prefer to stay stubbornly optimistic even if I get really super depressed or whatever else sometimes by any number of saddening/infuriating things going on around me or in the world at large. I kinda don't want to waste my life being all buttmad, I'd like to stop and smell the roses as much as I can. It makes things easier, if nothing else, makes life less crappy.
It does take practice to pull oneself out of one's own pit of angst, shake it off, and look at something beautiful or take a walk or whatever, though.
Something something hippie vibes something something......
Generally speaking, I stay away from the kind of people who start nitpicking about how "irrelevant" morals and ethics are, because 9 times out of 10, they're trying to justify some dark horrible corner of their own minds they want to indulge/coddle a little bit. Never once met a "morality is irrelevant" person who didn't turn out to have psychopathic/sociopathic tendencies to some degree or another. I'm certain this doesn't apply to all, but it's enough of a pattern that I just steer clear these days. If you can't agree on a simple "don't murder/rape/etc., it's not okay" then I'll just end up treating you with the utmost distrust, and rightly so, based on years of experience encountering that sort of person.
Misanthropy is just bitterness, typically. And that's not to say that it isn't well-earned in many cases. I would argue that in most cases I'm aware of, people just naturally chose niche ideas or niche hobbies such as furry or tabletop or whatever else, and THEN they ended up bullied, abused, etc. for their differentness (our society is really fixated on status quo, after all, even if beneath the veneer one quickly discovers that there isn't really such a thing as "normal", lol), and then they end up becoming jaded, bitter and misanthropic over time because quite frankly, if they can't even have a hobby or interest without being stomped on for it, I can kinda see why they'd be upset, you know? But yeah, some really get stuck in that place and wallow around in their own self-pity and egotistical whatever, and that gets real annoying and toxic real fast. There are good people and there are bad people, good things and bad things in life, and ultimately it really is a choice we all have to make as to what we focus on and decide to do with the life handed to us. Also, for all I know, they may be struggling with mental illness or something that I'm not aware of, so I dunno.
I mean... I get misanthropic sometimes, usually when I'm having a bad day or just really super frustrated with the world around me or feeling hopelessly surrounded by assholes. But I try (key word: TRY, haha) to remember that the narrow scope of my current viewpoint is narrow, and there's a whole big world out there. Frankly, if I exist, it is virtually guaranteed that somewhere in the world, at least one other person exists who has come to similar conclusions or has some similarities to me. Nobody is ever truly alone, they just feel that way because of their current circumstances.
TL;DR I really prefer to stay stubbornly optimistic even if I get really super depressed or whatever else sometimes by any number of saddening/infuriating things going on around me or in the world at large. I kinda don't want to waste my life being all buttmad, I'd like to stop and smell the roses as much as I can. It makes things easier, if nothing else, makes life less crappy.
It does take practice to pull oneself out of one's own pit of angst, shake it off, and look at something beautiful or take a walk or whatever, though.
Something something hippie vibes something something......
Yakamaru
Woof? Woof
Murder should be legal. :3 <-- Obvious sarcasm is obvious, in case someone didn't get it
In all seriousness, people are weird as hell. Some want to justify some real dark desires/fantasies, some of those border insanity. And boy, have I seen some reeeeal fucked up shit over the course of my time on the internet/interacting with people.
I look upon ethics and morals as something that's not absolute, something that humans created in order to better get along, though we do have many baselines/grounds that we almost unanimously agree are unethical/immoral. That would be rape, murder, violence, forced marriages, etc.
Context is important, though. A lot of people ignore the context part, which is sad.
Honey Lavender;
Worse than a grounded pilot: a grounded pegasus
Oh, for the love of God... can we PLEASE stop beating that dead old horse? I'm not going to convert to your psychotic ways of trying to shame me out of enjoying my steak, medium well, with a side of mashed potatoes and gravy, French-style green beans, and onion rings... so please stop cramming your rhetoric down my throat. I let you all eat your salads in peace, and I don't throw disgusted glares your direction, so is it REALLY that much for me to ask the same in return?
Jesus Christ! Call me a misanthrope if you want, but this type of rhetoric REALLY spells doom for the average IQ of the general population...
BittiBones
Gore fanatic
I love and approve of murder, if consuming meat is murder. I will gladly consume the byproduct of someone's murder, and gladly taxidermize the rest of the body to put to use else wise if it's something actually personally gunned down from hunting season. Though it wouldn't really be personally considering I don't hunt, only my uncles do, but still. Asides from that, being a misanthrope, is, ironically, part of being human for many. Meanwhile there's folks like me who, oddly enough, treasure humanity and thoroughly enjoy it despite being ran over all the time in life and constantly being given shit by others. Human kind is an amazing thing to see, the histories are interesting to hear, and so many unique, important people are born daily. So many die daily. Everyone has their role in life that they decide if they work at it hard enough, and that's something that's special. We're not like any other species on the planet, as we've no natural predator and rule the seas, land along with skies. We sing like birds, who sing as they aren't afraid thanks to the ability to get away, show off just like them too. We have cultures, stories passed down throughout time. Religions, wars, love, stories in other forms, art, technology,.. just goes on and on. I can for certain say that I'm thankful to be a part of this. A piece of humanity.
I'm rambly, so feel free to ignore me. I just love humanity and I don't know how to describe it. I've got pride in it, I suppose. Especially for how fucked up we can be. Like the Human Centipede. Also for how heartwarming we can be, like whenever Mulder gave the homeless guy his hotel room for the night brought tears to my eyes because I'm a strange person like that. I also love empathy. And so on. Ramblerambleramble.
I'm rambly, so feel free to ignore me. I just love humanity and I don't know how to describe it. I've got pride in it, I suppose. Especially for how fucked up we can be. Like the Human Centipede. Also for how heartwarming we can be, like whenever Mulder gave the homeless guy his hotel room for the night brought tears to my eyes because I'm a strange person like that. I also love empathy. And so on. Ramblerambleramble.
Praetor Pragmus
New Member
While I dislike being around people, misanthropy is a waste of energy and its not productive. People who go out of their way to despise humanity are usually useless globs who have nothing better to occupy their time with.
It's ok to be frustrated with people sometimes, but the species isn't all black and white. Humanity is a bunch of idiots running around trying their darnedest to keep itself going. We really should have nuked ourselves into oblivion five times over by now but we haven't. People are kind of charming in that regard, at least to me.
It's ok to be frustrated with people sometimes, but the species isn't all black and white. Humanity is a bunch of idiots running around trying their darnedest to keep itself going. We really should have nuked ourselves into oblivion five times over by now but we haven't. People are kind of charming in that regard, at least to me.
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lupi900
Guest
Have you ever heard the term self loathing furries?. What you said pretty much describes them. Heck this forum in its past was full of them before moving to the new spinoff.
I'm enough of a Hobbesian to have a low opinion of humanity in general, but with enough sense to understand that I am just as human as the next sapiens. As such, I'm compelled to do the best I can to prove that humanity can rise above its inherent savagery and become Nietzschean supermen.
Consequently, I'd be remiss not to honour my obligations as a soldier, to which conscientiousness and humanitarianism are necessary.
Consequently, I'd be remiss not to honour my obligations as a soldier, to which conscientiousness and humanitarianism are necessary.