Because we're talking about internet idiots debating in circles in a forum about animal people, not religious genocide. Pay attention to the context.
one has nothing to do with the other, so illustrate your context better.
Do you know what we should do to mass murderers, religious or not? Execute them. Religion is a very convenient excuse for deranged psychotics to have their merry way, but eliminating religion will only make them turn towards other ways to manipulate public opinion for their purposes. If it's not fear of what awaits in the afterlife, it'll be fear of foreigners, people who speak a different language, or just people who say "bro" a lot.
give me an example of something a person will turn to that is as convenient and blanketing as religion that isnt already covered by law most everywhere. because honestly, small groups of people sympathize with one form of cause, while many sympathize with a religiously killing. its all about the reinforcement of ideas.
I'm not going to refute your argument, because it's an irrelevant can of worms I don't want to open. I pointed out evolutionary evidence that indicates superstitious thinking is a natural development in humans, specially when it's related to group behavior. That much is true, and there's plenty of evidence in the form of damn near every population, modern or ancient, having their own myths and superstitions. Why do you think NASA engineers like eating peanuts during tricky takeoffs and landings? It ain't because they need the niacin, I can tell you that much.
superstition is something that is 99% culturally reinforced. and what reinforces culture? religion. you dont have to refute my argument to be dead wrong.
Yes, some of us (both of us included) can suppress those stupid natural tendencies to attribute intent to random chance and to see patterns where there are none. But make no mistake, you'll never be able to enable even a majority of the global population to do the same until sociological conditions are right. You'd need a level of general prosperity and happiness that's so high as to be unfeasible under our current socioeconomical systems. It's never been done before, and it's unlikely to ever actually happen.
so you are in a nutshell saying here that religion is for the poor and ignorant? well hey, there is something we agree on. of course its unattainable with our current systems because so many of them are driven by religion. religion is the shaper of culture throughout the ages, and culture is the great divider of humankind. i propose that if the religion is removed from the culture, the divisions are removed as well. then we can all fucking work together like a bunch of adults, and get to cracking on all of that socioeconomic stress our current society is in. if we can do it, so can they.
That's very idealistic. However, I ask you to keep in mind the deluded maniac has way more deluded maniacs with him than you have people on your side. And those deluded maniacs are far more likely to try to kill you if you rile them up too much with inflammatory, provocative speech. And a dead rationalist is only good as mulch.
doesnt work that way in a nation of laws bro. but i invite any deluded religious fuck to "come at me bro". ill teach em something worth crying over.
absolutely with your assessment that most organized religion is at least counterproductive but usually downright evil. But I'm being pragmatic. You'll never be able to change the mind of someone who's entirely convinced of their religious righteousness. Let me say that in bold letters: never. We see it in this thread. Their entire belief system is based on mechanisms that only reinforce their ideals when faced with hostile environments. That's precisely why most cultures become more religion-centric during times of adversity, when in fact the rational thing to do would be to start doubting beliefs that have been proven wrong time and time again.
sounds like garbage that humanity needs to be rid of, people responsible for more strife in the name of nothing at all than any rational human being.
Let me give you an example that stuck with me ever since I was a kid: I grew up in a very arid and poor area. Droughts were common, as were failed crops. Life was pretty hard outside the cities. And back when we were growing up, there was a period of drought that lasted almost two years. I remember literally seeing only two rainy days through those twenty three months of dry heat and dead cattle. The people in the cities didn't feel it too badly (we had trucks bringing us water and goods), but I saw the folks in the farms turn from lapsed catholics (as most of the population here was at the time) into fanatics that went to church every single day and pretty much threatened the city doctor who provided them with healthcare for free with physical violence because he was telling them to stop praying so much and actually using the antibiotics he gave them. It was only months after the rains arrived and the situation normalized again that all that religious fervor simmered down, but they were still left with more fanatics than they started with.
so instead of turning to something positive and real, people fell to their basest forms and threatened an educated person with violence because he told them that praying is gonna do fuck all compared to antibiotics. doesnt paint a pretty picture, that up there with some of the most ignorant shit ive ever heard. and this is the enemy.
What I am arguing for is that it's simply more efficient to take a guerilla approach. Religious stablishment is far too big a foe for rational people to take on as it is. Facing it head-on will only leave us patting ourselves in the back for "eviscerating" their stupid arguments, while the believers will be even more certain of their righteousness for willfully ignoring all rationality presented to them. Remember, doubt is evil to those people. Questioning things is evil. And their method of dealing with evil is to shut themselves off from it.
Instead, we should go for the long game and work indirectly for long-term goals. Maybe I didn't express myself properly, but I meant that we should study religion as a cultural element so we will be able to eventually phase it out. Instead of taking on other people's beliefs directly, we should try to undermine them with apparently harmless questions and knowledge. I haven't met a single ex-religious person who's told me they lost their religion because someone shouted at their face and insulted their intelligence for two hours straight.
On the other hand, I have met plenty of people (and was even personally responsible for two, thanks to The Demon-Haunted World) who said they started out as religious, but who then learned certain things and read interesting books who made them start to question what their priest was talking about. No amount of complaining and shunning will make someone change their mind, it has to be a personal choice prompted by personal doubt. But we can put that doubt into their minds and try to work with younger people so those misguided ideals never solidify into their minds (which is why I'm a huge proponent of popular science education).
It's a long game, because we're outnumbered and outgunned. Again, it's guerilla warfare. It's trying to chip away at their strength while building up our own, until the entire system collapses under the weight of the top portion that will never change its mind.
And that's why I'm just as annoyed by radical anti-religious speech as I am by actual religious fanatics. It's preaching to the converted (so to speak). Other anti-religious people will love it, religious people will hate it, and the system will simply move on towards an even more unstable level until it blows up on your faces. Nope, I don't give a damn about moral imperatives or ethical concerns telling us we should criticize religion at every turn, I care about tactics that will get us there.
well i can agree with the education part, ive advocated that time and again before. but i think all that shouting might get to somebody, even just one person. as ive said as well, there is only really hope for the very young people who havent had their respective cultural bullshit hammered into their skulls by their ignorant peers and family. though the question remains, what do you do with the top portion that remains? my thoughts on that are hardly humanitarian, frankly they ought to be loaded into a giant spaceship and shot into the sun. or sent through a stargate to another planet. or killed violently. comeuppance is a bitch, and there's thousands of years of oppression and violence to repay.