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Early and Ancient civilizations and peoples thread

Hi-FiWolf95

Metal Misanthrope
...alright then?

The idea of having direct bloodlines to ancient people groups can be pretty tenuous. Literally every human on earth will have one ancestor who worked on the great pyramids of egypt for example.

Ancient people groups furthermore are often not clearly distinguished genetic groups. There's little evidence for example that peoples who spoke Celtic languages had a much greater genetic similarity to each other apart from the fact that they all lived in Europe.

Most of Europe's genetic structure was established by the Bronze age- and those are cultures which are known only by the names of the pottery they left behind.
I don't think it could be said for every single person though, there are genetic differences in isolated rural communities who stuck together up to this day. I do not believe Tuvans, some Turkic-speaking, and Siberians had an ancestor who worked on the great pyramids, unless I am misunderstanding something here. We can say most of the world has a direct common ancient ancestor, considering Europe has been a melting pot for millenniums with various tribes from other continents, with the exception of various rural societies that have no connection whatsoever except within their own genetic groups, for instance, the relation between Siberia and indigenous Americans. Unless, you are going back to the very earliest peoples to say we're all basically the same, which isn't the case today. I'm on about classical and bronze era and distinguishing objectively different cultures, societies and their various accomplishments distinguished from other backgrounds of these eras. Just because we may have come from the same seed, it does not mean we didn't split and become our own people over time, with our own lineage of attainment as well as defeat. In other words, someone from northern Europe might have achieved something over hundreds of years in comparison to my people, even in regards to apparel, religion, philosophy, etc, and they can be proud of their distinct ethos from mine, because they held onto it. Yes, Greeks of today are a mix of different ancient Hellenic and few tribes from other European, west asian/middle eastern, north African, and likely Anatolian tribes, but they are Greek nonetheless, and hold onto their distinct ethos and accomplishments being that they are largely an apparent separate group from, let's say, Finland, and nobody else is holding onto that same pride.


I am curious, what is your exact argument here? If I'm correct, you are arguing that maybe I made the wrong assumption about my direct bloodline because they may had been intermixed with various communities in contrast to whom I associate with today, then maybe you are right, but I believe otherwise, because of scientific data that specifically says so in my genealogy, even if percentages vary slightly.
 

Wodenofthegays

Fascist Dictator
Just as a general PSA since this has become a part of the thread; please don't give access to anything that might provide access to your genetic makeup to anybody but reputable medical providers.

Its sensitive personal information for you and for all of your close family.

I don't think it could be said for every single person though, there are genetic differences in isolated rural communities who stuck together up to this day.

Not really. "Genetic differences" at a meaningful scale don't happen too quickly.

I do not believe Tuvans, some Turkic-speaking, and Siberians had an ancestor who worked on the great pyramids, unless I am misunderstanding something here.

You're not misunderstanding about what he said; you're just not accepting that humans are insanely closely-related and interconnected.

You are misunderstanding genetic science and "genetic ancestry," though.

The test you displayed is probably just a haplogroup analysis, and I promise you that if you do that test and you have a mother, grandmother, and/or great grandmother from one of these colored areas on this mtDNA haplogroup tree and distribution map...

haplogroup.gif


you will get a map from that site that labels in a bunch of the same-color area from this mtDNA haplogroup tree and distribution map if that test has the sample to compare it to.

It doesn't track ancestry; it tracks recent mtDNA lines in ova-producing humans and they give you a vague guess on your ancestry based on what ancient peoples lived in the area that your test popped back as. As Jennifer Raff excelently points out in her article on Forbes, that's basically genetic astrology:

genetic ancestry analysis.PNG


We can say most of the world has a direct common ancient ancestor, considering Europe has been a melting pot for millenniums with various tribes from other continents, with the exception of various rural societies that have no connection whatsoever except within their own genetic groups, for instance, the relation between Siberia and indigenous Americans.

Rural societies don't have super distinct "genetic groups." A group of isolated Chinese hunter-gatherers from 4000 BCE is going to be astonishingly genetically identical to a group of Californian telemarketers in 2014. The unique genetic markers they might have had didn't get passed on, and the ones they did have that got passed on got passed on to everyone alive on the planet today and are, therefore, no longer unique genetic markers.

because of scientific data that specifically says so in my genealogy

There is no such thing. You have been duped by online scams. My apologies for your loss

Edit: obvious and politically heavy asterisk on the word "from" when I talk about the map
 
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Hi-FiWolf95

Metal Misanthrope
There is no such thing. You have been duped by online scams. My apologies for your loss

Edit: obvious and politically heavy asterisk on the word "from" when I talk about the map
I suppose my family duped me with their Sicilian surnames and immigration records too? I don't expect every single answer to be true, but the discussion is out of the scope of what I was trying to point out. I never said I didn't accept that people were interconnected by the human race, or that my grandparents down the line might have had a percentage of something else in the mix, however, I am stating a fact that people are ethnically, culturally, linguistically, militarily, etc, different than each other, and also have a right to take pride in their ancestors who made their efforts which fundamentally constructed their various communities, heritage and accomplishments distinct from others they branched off from.
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
I don't think it could be said for every single person though, there are genetic differences in isolated rural communities who stuck together up to this day. I do not believe Tuvans, some Turkic-speaking, and Siberians had an ancestor who worked on the great pyramids, unless I am misunderstanding something here. We can say most of the world has a direct common ancient ancestor, considering Europe has been a melting pot for millenniums with various tribes from other continents, with the exception of various rural societies that have no connection whatsoever except within their own genetic groups, for instance, the relation between Siberia and indigenous Americans. Unless, you are going back to the very earliest peoples to say we're all basically the same, which isn't the case today. I'm on about classical and bronze era and distinguishing objectively different cultures, societies and their various accomplishments distinguished from other backgrounds of these eras. Just because we may have come from the same seed, it does not mean we didn't split and become our own people over time, with our own lineage of attainment as well as defeat. In other words, someone from northern Europe might have achieved something over hundreds of years in comparison to my people, even in regards to apparel, religion, philosophy, etc, and they can be proud of their distinct ethos from mine, because they held onto it. Yes, Greeks of today are a mix of different ancient Hellenic and few tribes from other European, west asian/middle eastern, north African, and likely Anatolian tribes, but they are Greek nonetheless, and hold onto their distinct ethos and accomplishments being that they are largely an apparent separate group from, let's say, Finland, and nobody else is holding onto that same pride.


I am curious, what is your exact argument here? If I'm correct, you are arguing that maybe I made the wrong assumption about my direct bloodline because they may had been intermixed with various communities in contrast to whom I associate with today, then maybe you are right, but I believe otherwise, because of scientific data that specifically says so in my genealogy, even if percentages vary slightly.

Everybody has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents.
Before long, everybody shares ancestors.

We also possess ancestors from whom we have inherited zero dna, because of the process of recombination. There will be people only a score of generations ago in your family tree who you may have inherited no genes from.

This is why most people can discover famous figures from history, like kings and queens, in their family trees.

Unless you come from a population that has been completely isolated since before Ancient Egypt, then you're probably related to somebody who helped build them.
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
Thankyou @Wodenofthegays for describing genetic ancestry testing so well.

I thought of an interesting example to illustrate.

People might be interested in knowing whether they have Viking ancestors, so they produce DNA samples, and compare them to the DNA extracted from skeletons in a Viking burial site in Oxford.

The results of the DNA testing show that both samples from English and Danish populations are very similar and almost equally akin to the Viking samples.

But this isn't because both of them share equal numbers of Norse ancestors. Almost all of the Danish group's ancestors are Norse, while only a small proportion of the English group's ancestors are.
They're similar because both Danish and English populations are descended from a single bronze age population.

A mixed-race Norwegian, who is half Nigerian, might then be tested and be told by the genetic testing company that she has the least similarity to the Viking samples of anybody who was tested- but she probably has more Norse ancestors than all of the English people who were tested.
 

Connor J. Coyote

Well-Known Member
I suppose my family duped me with their Sicilian surnames and immigration records too? I don't expect every single answer to be true, but the discussion is out of the scope of what I was trying to point out. I never said I didn't accept that people were interconnected by the human race, or that my grandparents down the line might have had a percentage of something else in the mix, however, I am stating a fact that people are ethnically, culturally, linguistically, militarily, etc, different than each other, and also have a right to take pride in their ancestors who made their efforts which fundamentally constructed their various communities, heritage and accomplishments distinct from others they branched off from.
@Lupus Et Revertetur You absolutely have the right to be proud of your heritage and lineage; and it's certainly true that we all have mixes of DNA within our bodies - and that there are indeed many ethnicities that can fall under that umbrella (within each of us) But - if you identify with and celebrate your Sicilian background, and you feel that you're proud of that heritage (and with what those people have accomplished) - then, you shouldn't have to apologize to people for that either.... some of whom may feel you should be more "culturally open".

Unless you wish to engage in geneological reasearch in depth about your heritage, and would like to know "all there is to know" about your background, then - it's totally fine (I think) to take whatever information you currently have about yourself - and just celebrate it and enjoy it, for what it is also.
 

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
The Polynesian method is wave-reading (landmasses cause interference patterns in the sea), naked-eye astronomy and oral tradition.
Some pacific peoples use maps to represent wave-reading patterns.
25757.jpg




...alright then?

The idea of having direct bloodlines to ancient people groups can be pretty tenuous. Literally every human on earth will have one ancestor who worked on the great pyramids of egypt for example.

Ancient people groups furthermore are often not clearly distinguished genetic groups. There's little evidence for example that peoples who spoke Celtic languages had a much greater genetic similarity to each other apart from the fact that they all lived in Europe.

Most of Europe's genetic structure was established by the Bronze age- and those are cultures which are known only by the names of the pottery they left behind.
I've been following this thread but didn't feel the need to comment. However, I didn't know the specifics about Polynesian navigation techniques such as wave reading. Could you explain a bit more about them?
 

KimberVaile

Officially elected and actual ruler of FAF
I suppose my family duped me with their Sicilian surnames and immigration records too? I don't expect every single answer to be true, but the discussion is out of the scope of what I was trying to point out. I never said I didn't accept that people were interconnected by the human race, or that my grandparents down the line might have had a percentage of something else in the mix, however, I am stating a fact that people are ethnically, culturally, linguistically, militarily, etc, different than each other, and also have a right to take pride in their ancestors who made their efforts which fundamentally constructed their various communities, heritage and accomplishments distinct from others they branched off from.
Well, if anything, I would hope threads like this inspire you to learn more about who your ancestors were and their own history. History need not just be cautionary tales or things to avoid, but also a method to better understand yourself and our species. To learn history is also to know ourselves and our unique origins. So, if anything I encourage pride in the past.
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
I've been following this thread but didn't feel the need to comment. However, I didn't know the specifics about Polynesian navigation techniques such as wave reading. Could you explain a bit more about them?

Sorry I've been busy.

I don't personally know much about wave reading beyond that it's a navigational technique- if anybody else does know more they might help explain.

My layman's understanding is that landmasses deflect waves, and hence the pattern in the waves can be used to deduce the direction in which landmasses lie.

f7e076b1fd01b297d1e3140acdea0840.jpg
 

AniwayasSong

Well-Known Member
I find early communities fascinating, not just Egypt, Mayan, and Greece and Rome, but cultures and communities that existed everywhere in the world too. Use this thread to share ancient tribes, people, groups, or civilizations you think are interesting, or that you are descended from.

Be respectful and polite about the subject and towards each other.
I was born into a Native American society.
Put into modern parlance, a 'Reservation'.
Papa was Cherokee. Momma, Catholic Irish.
This was a shall I say, 'Delicate' relationship that gave 'Me', considerable grief, growing-up. Being the only daughter, youngest of three older brothers, I was automatically labeled as something Momma took full control over. To say I resented this would be the understatement of the century.
My heart and soul always felt closest to my Native Ancestry, and I fought tooth-and-claw against anything that tried to make me comply in contradiction to this Path!
I do have all respect and appreciation to EVERY culture and 'Path' others choose to follow. I'm not so arrogant or egotistical as to demand anyone adhere to mine-own.
For myself, there is a keenest to the Natural world. From the air we breath, the sky and clouds, Sun and Moon, water we drink and food(s) we eat. A 'Connectiveness' to the entire world we live in, that I just don't have all the words to express, yet resonates throughout my entire Being....
I weep for what modern humanity has chosen to throw-away, ignore, and deny.
We have lost far too much of ourselves in this artificial reality.
 
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