Evolution VS Creationism

[funky3000]

So, if you want to view the debate, if you haven't, here is the link to the debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kgvhG3AkI

The debate of evolution VS creationism has been a much more recent and relevant topic because of this debate. For those who don't know or want a refresh, evolution is basically humans came from monkeys, and creationism is a higher being created us and monkeys were not involved.

Feel free to state and discuss your side of this debate, or maybe have your own (civil!) mini-debate with users of the opposite viewpoint. Feel free to vote in the poll for what side you are on, maybe we can get a furry demographic of EvC.

My side of this debate is a mixture of the two, evolution dominant. Basically what I think happened, is because of the laws of conservation of matter/energy, a God had to create all the stuff in the universe. I believe in this being the case here, because I don't think everything has existed for literally forever -- it had to start somewhere but it cannot be created or destroyed... By normal forces. I think a higher power had the ability to create matter and energy, dumped a lot in one spot, and called it good. This created the Big Bang, or one of them in case the Big Crunch and Big Bang have happened multiple times. Eventually, matter took its own course and made the cosmos, and eventually life itself. Life began to evolve without needing the force of God, and eventually, evolution took the bigger hand and made life as we know it.

That's what I think happened. Though it could be a lot of different things, I believe in this the most strongly. Feel free to discuss your views, talk about my views or another's views, just be civil.

 

[thoughtmaster]

This can not end well. Prepare for bashing on religion and anyone who believes in a higher power (jumps into a bunker to avoid the coming fight.)

 

[Nikolinni]

This can not end well. Prepare for bashing on religion and anyone who believes in a higher power (jumps into a bunker to avoid the coming fight.)

Yeah pretty much. I got $20 this is going to go round and round in a circle jerk.

Well I know better now so no one's gonna get much target practice on me )

 

[Kit H. Ruppell]

Evolution without question, both for its scientific merit and for creationism's tendency to treat nonhuman life as mere property.

 

[Trpdwarf]

Humans came from monkeys? What are you Mrs Garrison?

 

[Fallowfox]

Humans came from monkeys? What are you Mrs Garrison?

We are monkeys. Humans are a species of ape and apes are a branch of monkeys, at least from a cladistic perspective anyway. This is why birds are dinosaurs and sea urchins are bilateria despite not being bilaterally symmetrical any longer.



Also, it gives me unimaginable pain that this debate exists amongst the general public in some first world countries, more so that many of those who do recognise evolution insist on polluting it with their religious ideas.

It's like going 'well I accept quantum physics, but only if jesus says which quantum states are allowed'.

 

[Ozriel]

My mother had the same debate about this and she derailed it to quantum physics and "perceptual theory", basically stating that our perception of evolution is neither true or untrue.

And scientific theory means that there's no information, so Evolution is not proven.

I drank three beers that night.

We are monkeys. Humans are a species of ape and apes are a branch of monkeys, at least from a cladistic perspective anyway. This is why birds are dinosaurs and sea urchins are bilateria despite not being bilaterally symmetrical any longer.

She was being sarcastic, hun.

 

[Captain Howdy]

evolution is basically humans came from monkeys

is because of the laws of conservation of matter/energy, a God had to create all the stuff in the universe. I believe in this being the case here, because I don't think everything has existed for literally forever -- it had to start somewhere but it cannot be created or destroyed...

Did you even watch the debate?

The words you're looking for "humans have a common ancestor with apes", not "we came from monkeys", and that is not even remotely close to what evolution actually is as a whole - that's kinda one aspect known as common descent, but there's still mutation, natural selection/adaptation, genetics, speciation, extinction - And all of those splinter off into similar topics as well.

Evolution also has little to do with the origins of the universe, other than we can't have the former without the latter, but that's an effect, not a cause(?).

Bill Nye addressed the laws of conversation of matter and energy in the debate, it has something to do with Earth being an open system and the universe being a closed system (since nothing exists outside the universe to impact it), when Creationists believe (or at least mislead others to believe) the opposite - Which could potentially defeat the Big Bang theory if it were true that Earth is a closed/isolated system, but it's an open system.

 

[thoughtmaster]

She was being sarcastic, hun.

Are you two dating, because such statements of affection are usually reserved for lovers

 

[Fallowfox]

She was being sarcastic, hun.

I know, I was just elucidating because many people who recognise evolution dismiss the 'my grandpa wasn't a monkey' argument by saying 'we evolved from apes, not monkeys', which is a part truth, because apes are monkeys.

It is a shame that our monkey identity is rejected by both 'sides' in this debate very often.

 

[Kalmor]

100% Evolution.

My side of this debate is a mixture of the two, evolution dominant. Basically what I think happened, is because of the laws of conservation of matter/energy, a God had to create all the stuff in the universe. I believe in this being the case here, because I don't think everything has existed for literally forever -- it had to start somewhere but it cannot be created or destroyed... By normal forces. I think a higher power had the ability to create matter and energy, dumped a lot in one spot, and called it good. This created the Big Bang, or one of them in case the Big Crunch and Big Bang have happened multiple times.

What you're talking about ~here~ has nothing to do with evolution, but rather the beginning of the universe (evolution only explains the changes in the genetics of life through generations by the process of natural selection, nothing to do with the universe as a whole). A very interesting read on the topic anyway is Professor Lawrence Krauss' "A universe from nothing".

 

[Ozriel]

Are you two dating, because such statements of affection are usually reserved for lovers

You are a credit to your kind. :V

 

[Fallowfox]

I think 90% of the comments encouraging creationism which are to come in this thread will take the structure 'I don't know how x works, therefore magical intervention is the only explanation,'

The OP, for example, is 'I don't know anything about the Big bang theory, therefore magic is responsible,'.
These are 'appeals to ignorance,' and they are wrong for a very clear reason. Imagine you are being prosecuted in court for a murder you did not commit. The prosecution asserts 'I have no idea how the victim died, therefore it must have been you!'

 

[Ozriel]

I think 90% of the comments encouraging creationism which are to come in this thread will take the structure 'I don't know how x works, therefore magical intervention is the only explanation,'

The OP, for example, is 'I don't know anything about the Big bang theory, therefore magic is responsible,'.
These are 'appeals to ignorance,' and they are wrong for a very clear reason. Imagine you are being prosecuted in court for a murder you did not commit. The prosecution asserts 'I have no idea how the victim died, therefore it must have been you!'

Or "I did not see it, therefore the information is not true", which I consider the highest level of ignorance.

 

[Fallowfox]

Or "I did not see it, therefore the information is not true", which I consider the highest level of ignorance.

It is a perplexing argument, because if eye witness is the standard of truth...we don't have any eye witness to claim life was created by a deity, and we have plenty of eye witnesses who think that the queen of England is a lizard in a human suit. x3

 

[Trpdwarf]

We are monkeys. Humans are a species of ape and apes are a branch of monkeys, at least from a cladistic perspective anyway. This is why birds are dinosaurs and sea urchins are bilateria despite not being bilaterally symmetrical any longer.



Also, it gives me unimaginable pain that this debate exists amongst the general public in some first world countries, more so that many of those who do recognise evolution insist on polluting it with their religious ideas.

It's like going 'well I accept quantum physics, but only if jesus says which quantum states are allowed'.

Forgive me, I hate the simplistic way in which people phrase "We came from monkeys".

I actually did an edit about people needing to insert supernatural deities into science...but figured it would be better to make it it's own post:

Ahem on a more serious note, I should write a book one day about "When I realized Dragons don't exist and why". That revelation taught me important concepts about human imagination, creativity, and a deep rooted need to fill in the blanks whens deprived of understanding. Dragons exist as a concept because people for a long time had no understanding of very basic principles. The idea of extinction did not exist. In fact even up into the Victorian age to suggest that an entire species of thing can die out...was laughable.

But extinction is very real and we've seen animals go through it in our own life times. The Dodo was not the first and it will not be the last consequence of mankind's ceaseless desire to overproduce and destroy to support that over-production/mass consumption. The point is, we didn't understand. When humans do not understand they tend to make up explanations that sound nice. As such many natural elements that we understand today were originally attributed to super natural causes. The earthquakes we know today are caused by plate tectonics and this isn't theory anymore. But back then, it was thought to be caused by things like angry deities, or monsters moving under the ground.

Plagues/epidemics are better understood today as we have the ability to trace where dangerous illnesses arise from. We understand the Black Plague as a scourge brought on the backs of vermin who carried the plague carrying biting insects. We understand that the widespread nature of this terrible event is connected to the boats that unwittingly helped spread it. Did they know what we know now? No. So the explanations people came up with to some point very supernatural. People even bloodied themselves in the streets thinking they could appease some supernatural force somehow and make it all stop.

Thunderstorms, hurricanes, land slides...etc. All of these have natural causes that at some point had devout superstitions, and or deities attributed to their existence. Of course we better understand them now. Dragons? Appear to be attempts to understand fossilize remains. Plus they made good stories, and formed the basis of various religious practices.

Is the point there yet? How many things have we as a race made up to make sense of things? With no reason, no logic, no real rational thinking. Bad things happen because bad things sometimes happen. We should be well beyond the thinking that bad things happen only to bad people, or that good deeds lead to goodness always. It is with this line of thinking that I cannot even begin to tolerate concepts of Creationism creeping into scientific class rooms, and being offered up as an alternative to actual science.

How old are some of these adults now that want to sit there and play god of the gaps? Too old to be functioning the level of "Child". When you realize why dragons don't exist, you realize why gods don't exist. Then your realize how silly it is to need to make up some grand supernatural being as the start to Evolution or the creation of this world. Of course this is my own frame of reference, I tolerate people who want to be religious as that is their choice. I do not tolerate trying to inject supernatural into science in the way that many people try to do.

 

[thoughtmaster]

Forgive me, I hate the simplistic way in which people phrase "We came from monkeys".

I actually did an edit about people needing to insert supernatural deities into science...but figured it would be better to make it it's own post:

Ahem on a more serious note, I should write a book one day about "When I realized Dragons don't exist and why". That revelation taught me important concepts about human imagination, creativity, and a deep rooted need to fill in the blanks whens deprived of understanding. Dragons exist as a concept because people for a long time had no understanding of very basic principles. The idea of extinction did not exist. In fact even up into the Victorian age to suggest that an entire species of thing can die out...was laughable.

But extinction is very real and we've seen animals go through it in our own life times. The Dodo was not the first and it will not be the last consequence of mankind's ceaseless desire to overproduce and destroy to support that over-production/mass consumption. The point is, we didn't understand. When humans do not understand they tend to make up explanations that sound nice. As such many natural elements that we understand today were originally attributed to super natural causes. The earthquakes we know today are caused by plate tectonics and this isn't theory anymore. But back then, it was thought to be caused by things like angry deities, or monsters moving under the ground.

Plagues/epidemics are better understood today as we have the ability to trace where dangerous illnesses arise from. We understand the Black Plague as a scourge brought on the backs of vermin who carried the plague carrying biting insects. We understand that the widespread nature of this terrible event is connected to the boats that unwittingly helped spread it. Did they know what we know now? No. So the explanations people came up with to some point very supernatural. People even bloodied themselves in the streets thinking they could appease some supernatural force somehow and make it all stop.

Thunderstorms, hurricanes, land slides...etc. All of these have natural causes that at some point had devout superstitions, and or deities attributed to their existence. Of course we better understand them now. Dragons? Appear to be attempts to understand fossilize remains. Plus they made good stories, and formed the basis of various religious practices.

Is the point there yet? How many things have we as a race made up to make sense of things? With no reason, no logic, no real rational thinking. Bad things happen because bad things sometimes happen. We should be well beyond the thinking that bad things happen only to bad people, or that good deeds lead to goodness always. It is with this line of thinking that I cannot even begin to tolerate concepts of Creationism creeping into scientific class rooms, and being offered up as an alternative to actual science.

How old are some of these adults now that want to sit there and play god of the gaps? Too old to be functioning the level of "Child". When you realize why dragons don't exist, you realize why gods don't exist. Then your realize how silly it is to need to make up some grand supernatural being as the start to Evolution or the creation of this world.

So you believe there is no such thing as a higher power? That there is nothing greater than humanity in existance?

 

[Alexxx-Returns]

The view of overall creation in the OP sounds like a deist one. That happens to be pretty much exactly what I believe as well.

But having studied evolution most of the time, for a while now, I could never bring myself to dispute that. I honestly don't understand why people have such difficulty accepting [the overwhelming evidence towards] this.

I was quite shocked to learn recently that some of the older members of my family won't even believe that humans originated entirely from Africa (because it's incongruent with the way it happened in the Bible). Much debate was had.

 

[Duality Jack]

Evolution is at least probable.
Creationism is at best unprovable.

 

[Trpdwarf]

So you believe there is no such thing as a higher power? That there is nothing greater than humanity in existance?

Describe what you mean by higher power? If you mean some sort supernatural being that governs us all...no I don't. Furthermore I'm not sure what you are getting at with this concept of "Nothing greater than humanity in existence". In my level of thinking I don't put humans on a pedestal. I do find this second question unnecessary and pointless.

 

[Captain Howdy]

Bad things happen because bad things sometimes happen.

This is actually one of the most terrifying, yet exciting, yet humbling things one can learn. The universe is a cold and dark place; we exist on a beady little rock orbiting unbelievably fast around a gigantic star that is going to implode/explode within a billion or two years (if I remember right) - There's no thought, there's no logic, there's no good or bad about it, and there's nothing we can really do about it (yet?) - It just is.

 

[Kit H. Ruppell]

So you believe there is no such thing as a higher power? That there is nothing greater than humanity in existance?

There are plenty of things greater than humanity, like quantum mechanics.

 

[Fallowfox]

edit: superfluous content

There are plenty of things greater than humanity, like quantum mechanics.

I'm not sure 'great' really means anything at all in the context.

The view of overall creation in the OP sounds like a deist one. That happens to be pretty much exactly what I believe as well.

But having studied evolution most of the time, for a while now, I could never bring myself to dispute that. I honestly don't understand why people have such difficulty accepting [the overwhelming evidence towards] this.

I was quite shocked to learn recently that some of the older members of my family won't even believe that humans originated entirely from Africa (because it's incongruent with the way it happened in the Bible). Much debate was had.

On the subject of 'deist' explanations, these are the appeals to ignorance I mentioned earlier.

A long time ago people thought that God was required to explain the formation of the solar system. Laplace famously proposed a physical explanation that didn't require the hand of God.

When Napoleon asked where God was in his theory he responded 'I've no need of that hypothesis'

Why over complicate evolution by inserting a superfluous mechanism that involves magic? ._.

 

[Kalmor]

Moved to off topic because it's neither a rant nor a rave. XD

 

[thoughtmaster]

There are plenty of things greater than humanity, like quantum mechanics.

Those are concepts and theories. I meaning a being greater than us, because if we are "it", as in the highest form of life, the future looks pretty bleak.