Evolution VS Creationism

[Blake_Foxx]

the universe is a whole lot of nothing, that popped into existance all on it's own, because that's just how physics apparently work.

Yeah physics gets a little weird the further into it you get. Especially in Quantum Physics. Things are in multiple places at once, stuff can levitate, and a whole bunch of other weird stuff.

 

[Azure]

The Book Of Genesis, taken literally as it is in the debate video, is ridiculous non-sense. But, The Book Of Genesis, read allegorically up to a certain point is 100% in agreement with science. But to get to that agreement, you have to read every passage with the same test. You have to constantly ask "How can I read this so that it makes sense?" But people don't do that. They depend on other people to tell them how they should read it, and that is how they come up with ridiculous conclusions like the world is only 6000 years old.

allegory has zero place in anything scientific ever. the bible is just a big giant mishmash of thefted pagan themes, and people who actually believe that the world is 6000 or so years old are the kind of people who star in creationist videos that feature bananas disproving evolition. but yeah the bible has literally ZERO science in it, and the moral messages can truly be gotten elsewhere, i mean hey, there are 7 billion people on this planet, and there are people vain enough to think that nobody has anything to teach them

 

[Rassah]

I figured it was worded wrong after rereading it.

So...does this mean I won't get super regenerative powers or epic shape-shifting abilities? ;~;

You can if you reproduce lots through cloning, and guiding each genetic slightly modified copy in that direction over millions of years. Or just want about 30 until we can print custom DNA, and do genetic therapy/DNA replacement with viral injection. The future is FUN!

 

[Crystal_the_Vixen]

Bill Nye always.

 

[Blake_Foxx]

You can if you reproduce lots through cloning, and guiding each genetic slightly modified copy in that direction over millions of years. Or just want about 30 until we can print custom DNA, and do genetic therapy/DNA replacement with viral injection. The future is FUN!

That's what I'm counting on. What I'm hoping will happen.

1.) With advancing medical technology my lifespan will increase significantly

2.) Whilst this is going on, they figure out how to stop/reverse aging before I die

3.) With new found biological immortality I avoid any other means of death still existent long enough for genetic manipulation and alteration to be possible.

 

[CaptainCool]

So...does this mean I won't get super regenerative powers or epic shape-shifting abilities? ;~;

With enough gamma radiation... Maybe! But I suppose the line between super powers and the most disgusting death EVER is a little too blurred to try it XD
We could try it through the classic "teleportation accident". Just hold a starfish instead of a fly and maybe you get the ability to grow your limbs back after having them cut off...?

 

[Aleu]

You can if you reproduce lots through cloning, and guiding each genetic slightly modified copy in that direction over millions of years. Or just want about 30 until we can print custom DNA, and do genetic therapy/DNA replacement with viral injection. The future is FUN!

:C
Well, I suppose with constant clones of myself, my superior punning abilities will live on

That's what I'm counting on. What I'm hoping will happen.

1.) With advancing medical technology my lifespan will increase significantly

2.) Whilst this is going on, they figure out how to stop/reverse aging before I die

3.) With new found biological immortality I avoid any other means of death still existent long enough for genetic manipulation and alteration to be possible.

I can't find any reason why I'd want to live longer than I'm scheduled to.

I want to die yesterday.

 

[Blake_Foxx]

I can't find any reason why I'd want to live longer than I'm scheduled to.

I want to die yesterday.

All kinds of reasons really. The potential of an extended life to vastly expand knowledge in ways that time has always prevented from happening, the thrill of watching societies rise and fall ( potentially), Find out what wonderful things science will bring in the future first hand instead of dying before the next breakthroughs, The change in societal behaviors over time creating more and more openness ( or potentially less I suppose ), and then if humans achieve the ability to manipulate genes among other sorts of things I can't help but imagine you could literally design a body for yourself if you so chose which might be interesting...Please note this is all random speculation. Lots of this stuff could very well turn out to be impossible. I really don't know. I'm just saying that if you lived long enough amazing things could happen.

 

[thoughtmaster]

Yeah physics gets a little weird the further into it you get. Especially in Quantum Physics. Things are in multiple places at once, stuff can levitate, and a whole bunch of other weird stuff.

So, um, how is it quantum physics and religion are different? They both spout nonsense, do they not?

 

[Fallowfox]

So, um, how is it quantum physics and religion are different? They both spout nonsense, do they not?

Quantum physics correctly explains emission spectra, which was its primary job. Every experiment ever carried out on it has turned up a positive result. The theory has essentially been tested to destruction. What we regard as nonsense in our macroscopic world is actually the reality of the quantum scale world- a place in which the position of a particle can be described as a probabilistic function of a wave equation, a world in which a particle can be in several locations at once and none at all at the same time.

Religion by contrast actually is just nonsense.

On the word "mutation"

isn't there technically genetic mutations such as eye color or something of that nature? Or is that outdated/incorrect information?

To be specific all Human eyes were originally dark brown. Many of the other mutant colours originated in Western Eurasia.

Blue is a typical mutant variant that Northern Europeans have in which the gene 'for' the brown pigment has been deactivated, Grey is an even more extreme mutant that North East Europeans have in which the genes for brown and blue pigments have been deactivated.

The date and location of these mutations' occurrences can be accurately determined and the build up of endemic mutations in a population is used to judge the amount of time they have been isolated.

 

[Kalmor]

So, um, how is it quantum physics and religion are different? They both spout nonsense, do they not?

Look at the large Hydron Collider and tell me it spouts nonsense.

These exotic events you hear about in quantum mechanics (multiple postitions at once, ect) are almost impossible at the macroscopic scale. That doesn't mean they don't exist on the atomic/subatomic level.

Ed: Ninja'd by Fallow. XD

 

[thoughtmaster]

Quantum physics correctly explains emission spectra, which was its primary job. Every experiment ever carried out on it has turned up a positive result. The theory has essentially been tested to destruction. What we regard as nonsense in our macroscopic world is actually the reality of the quantum scale world- a place in which the position of a particle can be described as a probabilistic function of a wave equation, a world in which a particle can be in several locations at once and none at all at the same time.

Religion by contrast actually is just nonsense.



To be specific all Human eyes were originally dark brown. Many of the other mutant colours originated in Western Eurasia.

Blue is a typical mutant variant that Northern Europeans have in which the gene 'for' the brown pigment has been deactivated, Grey is an even more extreme mutant that North East Europeans have in which the genes for brown and blue pigments have been deactivated.

The date and location of these mutations' occurrences can be accurately determined and the build up of endemic mutations in a population is used to judge the amount of time they have been isolated.

So could someone teach me how to use it to be in multiple places at the exact same time. I would very much like to know how to do that.

 

[Fallowfox]

So could someone teach me how to use it to be in multiple places at the exact same time. I would very much like to know how to do that.

If you were an electron, sure. To make things clear, quantum mechanics states that even a body the size of Jupiter has a very remote chance of hopping out of the solar system.

However the probability of this occurring is vanishingly small, so small we may assume it is zero for our every day purposes. At the quantum scale, things really do behave in that fashion though, and the transistors which make your computer work would not function if this was not true.

[as it happens, nor would MRI scanners and a bunch of other stuff, and it would be very difficult to explain why metals do not glow blue when you heat them up, instead of orange]

 

[Captain Howdy]

If you were an electron, sure. To make things clear, quantum mechanics states that even a body the size of Jupiter has a very remote chance of hopping out of the solar system.

However the probability of this occurring is vanishingly small, so small we may assume it is zero for our every day purposes. At the quantum scale, things really do behave in that fashion though, and the transistors which make your computer work would not function if this was not true.

[as it happens, nor would MRI scanners and a bunch of other stuff, and it would be very difficult to explain why metals do not glow blue when you heat them up, instead of orange]

I think this jives with what my old philosophy teacher had explained. That if you were capable of running at a wall a damn-near-infinite amount of times, one of those times, some part of you (if not all of you) will successfully pass through it. It's an infinitesimal chance, but it's possible <.<

 

[Gator Joe]

As a Catholic, I believe in both creationism and evolution equally. Many people think we hate science, but we actually love it because in a way, it helps prove the existence of God. It's even taught in Catholic schools. I can't vouch for other religious beliefs. I'm not posting this to start a debate. I've been discriminated by the furry community before just for being Catholic, and that's kept me away from the furry fandom for a very long time. I'm just simply stating my own personal belief.

 

[Fallowfox]

I think this jives with what my old philosophy teacher had explained. That if you were capable of running at a wall a damn-near-infinite amount of times, one of those times, some part of you (if not all of you) will successfully pass through it. It's an infinitesimal chance, but it's possible <.<

I suppose it is similar to that thought experiment often used in themodynamics, that a diamond will turn into graphite if you leave it on your desk for an infinite number of years.

Whilst thermodynamics is derived from macroscopic observations and arguments it reaches down to the quantum world in this example, because the diamond crystal is made of lots of minute jiggling quantum particles, which have a very small chance of spontaneously rearranging themselves into the graphite crystal matrix, instead of the diamond variant as a function of time.

It's a shame that physicists often use weird macroscale thought experiments to give people an idea of how odd quantum mechanics is, because this gives people the wrong impression- that quantum physics is wrong and scientists are all doofs who believe in messy magical ideas- because it's no good appreciating how weird quantum mechanics implies the cosmos is until you at least have a inkling of the body of knowledge which shows that it is a useful and accurate theory.

As a Catholic, I believe in both creationism and evolution equally. Many people think we hate science, but we actually love it because in a way, it helps prove the existence of God. It's even taught in Catholic schools. I can't vouch for other religious beliefs. I'm not posting this to start a debate. I've been discriminated by the furry community before just for being Catholic, and that's kept me away from the furry fandom for a very long time. I'm just simply stating my own personal belief.

Science proves nobody's personal magic beliefs. Whether you believe in reincarnation, gods, phantoms, djinns or anything else. Science's position on all of these is the same, that they are all unfalsifiable dead-end descriptions of the cosmos invented by groups of people who knew almost nothing about the universe they lived in.

 

[Perri_Rhoades]

.

 

[Fallowfox]

'Latent information'. If you mean things such as chickens containing deactivated genes for teeth this is because the distant ancestors of chickens had teeth. Certain events can reactivate these genes.
The epigenome can also reactivate dormant genetic information, but this should not be confused to mean that DNA was preprogramed by some agency for the benefit of the animals.

There is no such thing as a 'perfect' creature.

Giraffes do not use their long necks for want of food, they are actually instruments of war: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60SZ7Hk0wdQ

Females selecting which mates they breed with IS natural selection. They are not required to understand the process of natural selection for their choice of mate to have an influence, just as no tree understands why it is growing buttresses even though they stop it falling over.

There is no such thing as 'for the benefit of the species' selection- or at least if there is it is not significant. Genes act in the interest of copies of themselves and do not care whether this means a species divides in two.


You seriously need to understand the following terms.
-gene
-selection pressure
-reproduction

You keep implying 'God' because you don't understand how the former three terms interact. In any case your ignorance about them would not be an argument in favour of divinity- because this is an 'appeal to ignorance fallacy'.

Lamarckian evolution would not suddenly be correct because you find a species of creature you don't know hot to explain with darwinian terms, so why should 'divine evolution' be treated in such a fashion? You gotta find your own specific supporting evidence.

 

[CaptainCool]

it helps prove the existence of God.

Ok, I'll bite... HOW?! How does it do that? Because if it did we wouldn't have this discussion! XD


As for you, Perri... I am sorry but you are either too dense to understand it or too stubborn to see how little sense it makes what you say from a scientific point of view. What you say here essentially works against everything evolutionary biologists have found out during the last couple of decades.
You have absolutely NO IDEA how evolution works. None. You also don't seem to know much about biology in general.
Go talk to a biology professor if you have a university or college near by. I think you have to hear this from someone directly to understand how grossly mistaken you are about the things you are talking about in this thread.

To say it a little more directly, I think you are completely delusional about this. The fact that you constantly turn around what everyone says here and that you constantly deny it even though we present you the best evidence available to mankind at this moment you still deny it. You are in denial.

 

[BigwiggingAround]

I'm a devout Catholic, and I thought I'd contribute the following thoughts:

The Bible has absolutely nothing scientific in it.
The existence of God is [almost] definitely never going to be proven scientifically.
"Watchmaker theory" is a lame explanation.

I believe in God for a lot of reasons, but the bottom line is because it gives me security and peace of mind, not because I have any concrete logic to support His existence. The Catholic Church makes the most sense to me of all the religions or belief systems I could pick, and the way I see it, I could die and be received by my God, or die and not feel anything and not care that I was wrong because I'll be dead. I know it's horribly anti-intellectual, but so long as I don't impose my beliefs on anyone else against their will, I don't see any obligation to change my mind about these things.

I just wanted to get that out; sorry for not advancing the debate here.

 

[Aleu]

I just wanted to get that out; sorry for not advancing the debate here.

Meh, not like it's advancing anyway with how pathetic some of the arguments are.

 

[CaptainCool]

I'm a devout Catholic, and I thought I'd contribute the following thoughts:

The Bible has absolutely nothing scientific in it.
The existence of God is [almost] definitely never going to be proven.
"Watchmaker theory" is a lame explanation.

I believe in God for a lot of reasons, but the bottom line is because it gives me security and peace of mind, not because I have any concrete logic to support His existence. The Catholic Church makes the most sense to me of all the religions or belief systems I could pick, and the way I see it, I could die and be received by my God, or die and not feel anything and not care that I was wrong because I'll be dead. So long as I don't impose my beliefs on anyone else against their will, I don't see any obligation to change my mind about these things.

I just wanted to get that out; sorry for not advancing the debate here.

Looking at some bible passages I have absolutely no clue at all how something like that can give you a sense of security or peace of mind but hey, what ever floats your boat XD

 

[Nikolinni]

Looking at some bible passages I have absolutely no clue at all how something like that can give you a sense of security or peace of mind but hey, what ever floats your boat XD

Er...because we live in a world that, let's admit, is pretty messed up. So the idea that God actually cares about the humans and will give them a paradise if they follow his way would sort of give relief.

Also you've got this powerful God on your side who, if we go off the bible, seems to give some degree of care.

 

[Ozriel]

The best answer anyone can give is that they don't believe anything. Theories are always fun to speculate about. But to believe in one is to close the mind. Once you say you believe something, somebody's got you, and your thoughts are no longer free.

So, yeah, I don't believe in the extra-terrestrials either. Actually, I don't believe any of the theories I've mentioned in this thread. I'm just aware of them, and I think they're fun to kick around. But I'm not going to tell anybody that I have anything to offer that they should believe. I just have lots of fun things for them to think about, because thinking is a healthy thing to do. Believing is not.

No self-respecting scientist uses "belief" in the same context as what you'd use in religion. With any scientific theory, the information evolves and/or gets added on. Scientific theories aren't static like theology.

People debate theories even though they are tested and proven, but it doesn't mean it is on par with religious based assumptions. If you think that God created the universe by sneezing a giant booger, fine. But do not expect people in the field of science to take you seriously if you are trying to promote it as fact. And it doesn't belong in a public school curriculum either.

 

[Fallowfox]

The notions of comfort and 'hedgings one's bets' for an afterlife that were recently mentioned is a form of pascal's wager. This wager is defunct because there is more than one religion offering equivalent rewards and threats to the mutual exclusion of all other religions. Therefore the wager preys on human greed and fear in equal measure at the expense of our integrity.

More directly, though, the way we feel reality ought to be does not change the way it really is. If we must seek comfort, let it be in the arms of other humans instead of the consolation of imaginary friends.