Evolution VS Creationism

[CaptainCool]

Er...because we live in a world that, let's admit, is pretty messed up. So the idea that God actually cares about the humans and will give them a paradise if they follow his way would sort of give relief.

Also you've got this powerful God on your side who, if we go off the bible, seems to give some degree of care.

I want you to take a look at these bible verses and then tell me again that that book is a good source for comfort:
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Leviticus 20:13
Leviticus 20:27
2 Kings 2:23-24
Isaiah 13:15-18
Jeremiah 48:10
:3

 

[Ozriel]

I want you to take a look at these bible verses and then tell me again that that book is a good source for comfort:
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Leviticus 20:13
Leviticus 20:27
2 Kings 2:23-24
Isaiah 13:15-18
Jeremiah 48:10
:3

The way I see it, we're all in a SIMS game and God is the one removing the ladders to the pool and not letting us go to the bathroom. :V

 

[CaptainCool]

The way I see it, we're all in a SIMS game and God is the one removing the ladders to the pool and not letting us go to the bathroom. :V

I think that is actually a very good comparison! XD
If the bible is true then god is the one making the rules. BUT! by creating everything AND knowing everything that will ever happen in the universe it is directly responsible for everything that happens in it. And in my opinion that is exactly like building a pool in Sims 3 and removing the ladders.

By the way, building a big room, throwing a party, then removing the doors and windows and placing flowers in front of the fireplace is also a ton of fun ;V Bonus points for adding fire detectors to the room so that the fire brigade arrives but they can't do anything because the doors are missing XD

 

[BigwiggingAround]

The notions of comfort and 'hedgings one's bets' for an afterlife that were recently mentioned is a form of pascal's wager. This wager is defunct because there is more than one religion offering equivalent rewards and threats to the mutual exclusion of all other religions. Therefore the wager preys on human greed and fear in equal measure at the expense of our integrity.

More directly, though, the way we feel reality ought to be does not change the way it really is. If we must seek comfort, let it be in the arms of other humans instead of the consolation of imaginary friends.

I'm well aware every other religion has the same "Do what our God says; get do-gooder points to be happy after you die!" system. When I said the Catholic Church makes the most sense to me, that includes my belief it is the "right" and "original" one, for an assortment of reasons.

And how is it at the expense of our integrity? What integrity? Is there a moral obligation to only accept what we know is absolutely, positively true? In the event that whatever it is could affect people negatively or in a "big way", then I can accept that. But my beliefs don't affect me or anyone I interact with negatively (as far as I know). So I don't have any reason to not believe in God simply because I can't prove He exists.

I'm not changing reality to fit my desires. I know I said "the bottom line" for continuing to believe was because it gives me comfort; that doesn't mean it's the only reason, or even the main one. Perhaps I should've reworded that post...

 

[Butters Shikkon]

I dunno. God always sorta came off as this really strange dom in a BDSM dungeon.

Always hurting and punishing people "for their own good".

 

[Fallowfox]

I'm well aware every other religion has the same "Do what our God says; get do-gooder points to be happy after you die!" system. When I said the Catholic Church makes the most sense to me, that includes my beliefs it is the "right" and "original" one, for an assortment of reasons.

And how is it at the expense of our integrity? What integrity? Is there a moral obligation to only accept what we know is absolutely, positively true? In the event that whatever it is could affect people negatively or in a "big way", then I can accept that. But my beliefs don't affect me or anyone I interact with negatively (as far as I know). So I don't have any reason to not believe in God simply because I can't prove He exists.

I'm not changing reality to fit my desires. I know I said "the bottom line" for continuing to believe was because it gives me comfort; that doesn't mean it's the only reason, or even the main one. Perhaps I should've reworded that post...

Being gullible or easily manipulated into believing exotic things is a threat to your integrity, yes. If I trick someone into thinking gnomes are real, and leaving food out for them in order to please them in the hope of receiving gnomish gold, we would say that person's integrity has been damaged- even if the promise of gnomish gold brings them great pleasure.

I dunno. God always sorta came off as this really strange dom in a BDSM dungeon.

Always hurting and punishing people "for their own good".

On this subject, a hand-out by my palaeobiology lecturer today has the big bold word 'sub-discipline' printed at the top. Apparently I was the only one who found that funny.

 

[BigwiggingAround]

Being gullible or easily manipulated into believing exotic things is a threat to your integrity, yes. If I trick someone into thinking gnomes are real, and leaving food out for them in order to please them in the hope of receiving gnomish gold, we would say that person's integrity has been damaged- even if the promise of gnomish gold brings them great pleasure.

So by believing in God I am less likely to do the right things in life? That's what "damaged integrity" means to me. And right, in this case, could mean both "morally correct" or just plain correct.

[paragraphs redacted: i'm jumping ahead]

 

[Fallowfox]

So by believing in God I am less likely to do the right things in life? That's what "damaged integrity" means to me. And right, in this case, could mean both "morally correct" or just plain correct.

We're using different definitions of integrity. I view being gullible as damaging to your integrity, even if someone takes advantage of your gullibility to make you do a good thing, or something that benefits you in the end.

Integrity is a function of honestry, truth and accuracy. If you honestly believed in Crystal magic this would represent a threat to your integrity, for example.


The point is that believing in a whole religion because of the off-chance that its god will reward you when you die, rather than because there is any justification, would be an example of poor integrity.

 

[Aleu]

Fallow, just because someone believes in God doesn't mean they'll believe everything fantastical like gnomes or unicorns for example and it does nothing for a person's integrity.

 

[CaptainCool]

Fallow, just because someone believes in God doesn't mean they'll believe everything fantastical like gnomes or unicorns for example and it does nothing for a person's integrity.

But it does beg the question why so many people dismiss the existance of literally thousands of other gods (or unicorns) but when someone disagrees with their beliefs they are all like "Yeah but you can't disprove that god exists!". That makes no sense in my opinion, it is a massive double standard.
Not specifically talking about anyone in this thread by the way, this is just a general observation.

 

[Fallowfox]

Fallow, just because someone believes in God doesn't mean they'll believe everything fantastical like gnomes or unicorns for example and it does nothing for a person's integrity.

Just because someone believes in Gnomes doesn't mean they'll believe in God.

Belief in God because you are hedging your bets on an afterlife does damage one's integrity, and I thought I would illustrate this with an alternative example that you would view as just as silly as I view deities.

We are endeered to children's sweet and gullible nature when they put a mince pie out for father xmas in the hope of securing the present they really want, it's the same with adults pledging their allegiance to gods in the hope of swinging the odds in their favour.

But it does beg the question why so many people dismiss the existance of literally thousands of other gods (or unicorns) but when someone disagrees with their beliefs they are all like "Yeah but you can't disprove that god exists!". That makes no sense in my opinion, it is a massive double standard.
Not specifically talking about anyone in this thread by the way, this is just a general observation.

Indeed, nor is it good enough to say 'well I won't attack your beliefs if you don't attack mine,' for we then find ourselves in a complete rubbish tip of ideas.

People who say 'I will attack beliefs that are morally compromising,' are slightly better, but they still miss the point- which is that beliefs are models of reality, which is not a function of our morality...and the more subtle point that morality is a function of reality, so deliberately ignoring reality is a moral conundrum.

 

[Nikolinni]

I want you to take a look at these bible verses and then tell me again that that book is a good source for comfort:
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Leviticus 20:13
Leviticus 20:27
2 Kings 2:23-24
Isaiah 13:15-18
Jeremiah 48:10
:3

Another list? Let's get this over with....

1. If you're being raped, chances are you're gonna make a fuss. They really didn't have cameras back then, so this was really all they had to go off of. At least they don't require witnesses. If the man is caught in the act, then that would either mean he stoned, or it leads to....

2. Yes they would get married, but he'd have to pay a hefty fine for it (One comment I found calculated what 50 shekles would be in today's money; roughly $435 or so USD). Not only that, but he has to be under all other martial obligations to her, and isn't even allowed to divorce her, no matter what she does.

Or, are you okay with rape? Cause y'know these are laws that punish rape. They may sound absurd in our day and age, but that's because we're looking at it from our perspective/age, rather then trying to see things from how they were back then.

3. Pointing this out ignores the fact that other sexual sins are treated the same way.

4. Yes, because summoning ghosts and demons and other spiritual beings is SUCH a good idea. Go search around for what people think of a Ouija board. I mean, didn't you watch the Exorcist? Also keep in mind to most Christians, when you're dead you're dead. No "lost soul wandering the earth" type thing, so to them, Ghosts and spirits are actually deceptive demons. Again, failing to see things from another perspective.

5. Are you complaining about how unfair it is to have not been mauled to death by a bear for doing more harsh things? Also, these people were harassing Elisha. And this is also a good time to play Translations with the bible, because the KJV says they're children; NIV uses boys; some other translations use Youths. With boys and youths, no definitive age is set, unlike with Children.

6. If you actually, oh I dunno read the friggin bible you'd find out that this, now get this -- this is really good, *NOT AN ACT OF GOD* but describing what the Medes will be doing to Babylon. So what, God's evil for not lobotmizing us and enslaving us against our will or making our "coding" (so to speak) unable to cope with doing wrong? And if you'd think such a thing was good, didn't you ever watch "A Clockwork Orange"?

7. You ever hear of the phrase "for evil men to succeed it takes good men to do nothing"? Well I guess you're okay with good people doing nothing, since this is obviously a cry against doing good against evil. Spoiler alert, but the people the Isrealites were fighting against weren't just people they saw and went "Godless heathens! Let's kill 'em!" But of course, you don't read the bible, so you don't know that.

But it does beg the question why so many people dismiss the existance of literally thousands of other gods (or unicorns) but when someone disagrees with

their beliefs they are all like "Yeah but you can't disprove that god exists!". That makes no sense in my opinion, it is a massive double standard.
Not specifically talking about anyone in this thread by the way, this is just a general observation.

Actually if you also take another peek in the bible, you'll see that alot of the other Gods are seen either as False Idols, or as demons pretending to be gods.

Ah, but only those who actually read and study theology would know that.

 

[BigwiggingAround]

I agree with your points, Fallowfox.

I do firmly believe in my religion and in God. I'm realizing now I exagerated in my original post; I am comforted by my religion, and that sense of security is a strong motivator to continue defending it when the odds are against me in an argument. However, beneath that, I do believe in the Church's teachings because I think they've been justified for reasons I don't want to spend forever explaining and debating right now, not because I'm betting on them in the hopes reality isn't as bleak as it seems to be.

My question to you is even if I do have poor integrity because I believe in something you find silly, why do you care?

 

[Fallowfox]

People actually were forced to 'marry thy rapist' until surprisingly modern times in Scotland. :\

Forcing victims to marry their abusers may be laws you view as suitable to a primitive society...but building a primitive barbaric society is a rather low precedent for a deity, hell it's a low precedent to aspire to for us.

It horrifies me that people would actually defend this stuff- such as having infinite compassion at your disposal to settle people's difference, but sending a mother-fucking grizzly bear to sort things out.

I agree with your points, Fallowfox.

I do firmly believe in my religion and in God. I'm realizing now I exagerated in my original post; I am comforted by my religion, and that sense of security is a strong motivator to continue defending it when the odds are against me in an argument. However, beneath that, I do believe in the Church's teachings because I think they've been justified for reasons I don't want to spend forever explaining and debating right now, not because I'm betting on them in the hopes reality isn't as bleak as it seems to be.

My question to you is even if I do have poor integrity because I believe in something you find silly, why do you care?

This should be apparent. I am not fussed about emotive reasons for beliefs, it bothers me whether beliefs are correct or not. Of course, the truth would persist whether or not I cared to evaluate it.

 

[Nikolinni]

People actually were forced to 'marry thy rapist' until surprisingly modern times in Scotland. :\

Forcing victims to marry their abusers may be laws you view as suitable to a primitive society...but building a primitive barbaric society is a rather low precedent for a deity, hell it's a low precedent to aspire to for us.

It horrifies me that people would actually defend this stuff- such as having infinite compassion at your disposal to settle people's difference, but sending a mother-fucking grizzly bear to sort things out.




This should be apparent. I am not fussed about emotive reasons for beliefs, it bothers me whether beliefs are correct or not. Of course, the truth would persist whether or not I cared to evaluate it.

Actually God didn't send the bears. Nowhere in that passage did it say "And God sent two motherfucking Grizzlies to sort things out"; the bears were due to the curse Elisha placed on the harassers.

 

[Fallowfox]

Actually God didn't send the bears. Nowhere in that passage did it say "And God sent two motherfucking Grizzlies to sort things out"; the bears were due to the curse Elisha placed on the harassers.

Well Elisha sure sounds like a dick.

 

[Nikolinni]

Well Elisha sure sounds like a dick.

Yeah, the guy who works wonders and brings people back from the dead, cures people of leprosy, and multiples oil so one has enough for their family, to provide hospitality for Elisha, and also to pay of their debts, is a pretty dick person.

Also you have to think, this must've been a large crowd of boys. The bears tore up 42. Not all, 42.


To me that's just kinda like pointing out Jesus was a bad person because he had a temper tantrum over how they were using the temple.

 

[Fallowfox]

Yeah, the guy who works wonders and brings people back from the dead, cures people of leprosy, and multiples oil so one has enough for their family, to provide hospitality for Elisha, and also to pay of their debts, is a pretty dick person.

Also you have to think, this must've been a large crowd of boys. The bears tore up 42. Not all, 42.

Oh God...I just realised why all major world religions come from the alpine-himalayan belt.

There are hydrocarbons leaking out of the belt because of accreted oceanic terranes from the closure of the tethys ocean...they literally spew out of the ground in the faults in these places, like here:

These hydrocarbons are hallucinogenic and most towns and temples are built across these faults because rivers tend to exploit them...

Oh my god this seriously is the reason that people see angels and people walking on water in these places...

 

[Butters Shikkon]

4. Yes, because summoning ghosts and demons and other spiritual beings is SUCH a good idea. Go search around for what people think of a Ouija board. I mean, didn't you watch the Exorcist? Also keep in mind to most Christians, when you're dead you're dead. No "lost soul wandering the earth" type thing, so to them, Ghosts and spirits are actually deceptive demons. Again, failing to see things from another perspective.

Well, I mean...if its their religion, we should be tolerant. ;3

Also, are you just joking about the Ouija board thing or what? Because it really makes your point seem silly. I mean...damn. It's a toy.

 

[Fallowfox]

For those not aware the Ouija board was originally invented as a psychology toy with no supernatural connotations attached. That is a mythology which has evolved over time because people in general were too thick to conclude 'wow, psychology is curious!' and instead came the conclusion 'I don't understand how this works and it creeps me out, therefore an evil dead dude lives inside it,'.

 

[CaptainCool]

Oh God...I just realised why all major world religions come from the alpine-himalayan belt.

There are hydrocarbons leaking out of the belt because of accreted oceanic terranes from the closure of the tethys ocean...they literally spew out of the ground in the faults in these places, like here:

These hydrocarbons are hallucinogenic and most towns and temples are built across these faults because rivers tend to exploit them...

Oh my god this seriously is the reason that people see angels and people walking on water in these places...

Or they just took the oil home and burned it there.
Also drugs

 

[Nikolinni]

Well, I mean...if its their religion, we should be tolerant. ;3

Also, are you just joking about the Ouija board thing or what? Because it really makes your point seem silly. I mean...damn. It's a toy.

Kinda sorta. It's just that people have a lot of horror stories about some coincidentally freaky things that happen due to them screwing around with one. A friend made one out of paper and got nightmares after using it D: So people often attribute that to demons.

But toys aside, there are a lot of people who are into spiritual ideas (even non-Christians) that say that just summoning up ghosts and demons isn't too good of an idea. Because an evil spirit or demon could be acting nice, like he wants to be your friend, only to be doing something like working towards possessing you or some other malicious purpose.

 

[Fallowfox]

Ghosts and daemons don't exist. It's the nocebo effect. You can create 'possession' of inanimate objects in controlled conditions. It's even possible to convince test subjects that erroneous pieces of mannequins are parts of their own bodies; they 'possess' them.

Bottom line is people's brains are prone to see humanity where there is none.

 

[Butters Shikkon]

Kinda sorta. It's just that people have a lot of horror stories about some coincidentally freaky things that happen due to them screwing around with one. A friend made one out of paper and got nightmares after using it D: So people often attribute that to demons.

But toys aside, there are a lot of people who are into spiritual ideas (even non-Christians) that say that just summoning up ghosts and demons isn't too good of an idea. Because an evil spirit or demon could be acting nice, like he wants to be your friend, only to be doing something like working towards possessing you or some other malicious purpose.

I'm an atheist, so you can imagine what my thoughts are towards the existence of ghosts and demons and things of that nature, but I must point this out. What's to say the god Christians worship isn't some mega-demon pretending to be a sweetheart and manipulating others into starting wars and killing witches and marrying rapists and such?

I really got away from religion in my mid-teens for this reason. Nothing about organized religions makes much sense. Everything seems to be "take my word for it". I really dislike that. It seems like it encourages people not to think.

 

[Nikolinni]

I'm an atheist, so you can imagine what my thoughts are towards the existence of ghosts and demons and things of that nature, but I must point this out. What's to say the god Christians worship isn't some mega-demon pretending to be a sweetheart and manipulating others into starting wars and killing witches and marrying rapists and such?

I really got away from religion in my mid-teens for this reason. Nothing about organized religions makes much sense. Everything seems to be "take my word for it". I really dislike that. It seems like it encourages people not to think.

That's kinda why I ended up splintering off into "My Own Thing" (as I often call it) religiously/spiritually. Except my problem was trying to find out what "The Right Way" was to follow God. So many people pointing in different directions it was about as useful as if they weren't pointing at all. Add some documentaries a friend showed me and there you go.

Though I oftentimes find myself playing apologist for Christians still.