FA/IMVU Discussion

[Runefox]

I'm not accepting anything without proof, not sure where you're pulling that from.

I don't assume Dragoneer is lying, I don't assume that of anyone, until I have solid proof. I'm sorry, that's how justice works.

Right around there. Also, that's not how justice works. Burden of proof. If someone told you that they came here on a meteor from the Kepler belt, you wouldn't believe them unless you had proof. If you don't believe them, you're assuming they're lying (or in this case stark raving mad but you get the idea).

Alkora sold FA, the journal doesn't say HALF of FA, it says FA. So if it is half, he really should have specified.

I'm saying the sale was not legal if Arcturus' part of the story is true.

 

[miyevskr]

I should add that if this is true, Alkora (Jheryn) is at fault for selling it to Neer 7 years ago, without consulting Arcturus.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/225126/

There is no mention of the 50% in this journal. If he did say it, he was either lying or took it back.

Heh; I'd actually forgotten the aside with Arcturus on that thread.

I'll reiterate the matter of that being a fraught transition. The relevant parties know why.

 

[PheagleAdler]

Right around there. Also, that's not how justice works. Burden of proof. If someone told you that they came here on a meteor from the Kepler belt, you wouldn't believe them unless you had proof. If you don't believe them, you're assuming they're lying (or in this case stark raving mad but you get the idea).


I'm saying the sale was not legal if Arcturus' part of the story is true.

Alright, you caught me, if it doesn't seem like something's off, I'll go with it. Stuff like "I came here on a meteor" definitely requires proof.

Honestly, I think Dragoneer wants to improve the site. I'm not quite sure he has the drive (or monetary support, at least until now). And I'm hopeful for change. Does that make me a horrible person?

The sale, yes I am aware of what you are saying, but how can one even prove they own a portion of the code? I know at least some of it has changed too. So he certainly can't claim the entirety of it.

 

[Gryphoneer]

Piche has made many, many similar statements to that effect in the past, but props to Viv for finding this particularly demonstrative one.

If he just had the right connected family, he would've had a great career in Washington.

 

[PheagleAdler]

Piche has made many, many similar statements to that effect in the past, but props to Viv for finding this particularly demonstrative one.

If he just had the right connected family, he would've had a great career in Washington.

See, but here's the thing, Neer is still part of FA, he still controls it. That's a bit different from "letting it go."

 

[Runefox]

The sale, yes I am aware of what you are saying, but how can one even prove they own a portion of the code? I know at least some of it has changed too. So he certainly can't claim the entirety of it.

It's not the code that he's claiming ownership of, he's claiming 50% ownership of the site in general, as sold by Jheryn/Alkora. His agreement with them was for 50% of the site.

See, but here's the thing, Neer is still part of FA, he still controls it. That's a bit different from "letting it go."

He's running it, but he doesn't control it. IMVU controls it. He's just their chauffeur.

 

[PheagleAdler]

It's not the code that he's claiming ownership of, he's claiming 50% ownership of the site in general, as sold by Jheryn/Alkora. His agreement with them was for 50% of the site.


He's running it, but he doesn't control it. IMVU controls it. He's just their chauffeur.

Well then, some done f*cked up back in 2007.

I'm not sure calling him a chauffeur is accurate. Since apparently according to IMVU "As mentioned in our announcement, the only input we have in FA is ensuring the site administrator has appropriate resources to make improvements to the site that he has been wanting to make (servers and such)." All I see is funding and a connection between two furry communities.

 

[Gryphoneer]

Eh, I guess I can get his reasoning.

As a figurehead he keeps his VIP status in the fandom, but doesn't need worry about all those complicated financial stuff, like whether red or black numbers are the bad ones.

FA never was about him doing a service for the community, it's all about not being a nobody. Pathetic.

 

[nrr]

See, but here's the thing, Neer is still part of FA, he still controls it. That's a bit different from "letting it go."

OK, so, I think you're confusing financial equity with social or political equity. Dragoneer currently has none of the former since he cashed it in with IMVU, and it's currently disputed exactly what share of the equity in FA he had at the time of sale. On the other hand, since IMVU has granted him a position controlling the direction in which FA drifts, he happens to have a lot of social and political equity.

In simpler terms: Dragoneer doesn't own FA any longer, but he does still happen to dictate how it works.

On the financial equity front, the disputes come down to who has what documents, who can substantiate which claims, and with whom what agreements were made. If Arcturus did the legwork to document that, yes, they were the owner of the claimed 50% legal interest in FA (by whatever instrument, be it stock or any other commodity), there may be a good case to be had. At this juncture, though, any litigation to come out of it will be purely on principle since the costs involved will very likely outweigh any of the benefit.

 

[Runefox]

I'm not sure calling him a chauffeur is accurate. Since apparently according to IMVU "As mentioned in our announcement, the only input we have in FA is ensuring the site administrator has appropriate resources to make improvements to the site that he has been wanting to make (servers and such)." All I see is funding and a connection between two furry communities.

I think it's accurate. The instructions right now are "keep going where you're going". That can and very likely will change in the future when hungry investors are wondering why they aren't making any ROI on this site. It seems to me that the way Dragoneer pitched it, all the site needs is a bit of hardware and a professional coder in order to be profitable. That isn't the reality, although IMVU definitely stands to gain from data mining, which is something Dragoneer claims he has the authority to say no to (he doesn't).

The bottom line is, FurAffinity is (disputedly) 100% owned by IMVU. Dragoneer is IMVU's employee. He can be fired if he fails to perform; He's said so himself. If FurAffinity continues to lose money, expect changes. Dragoneer is driving the car but IMVU owns it and chooses where it goes. And they can say he doesn't get to drive it anymore if he chips the paint.

 

[RedSavage]

Are people still bothering to argue with that humongous brown-nosed kissass PheagleAdler? Y'all could give him scanned court documents with a final verdict ordering Dragoneer and IMVU to hand out direct compensation to the parties in question, and he'd still be going, "Look, hang on, let's give 'Neer the benifit of the doubt. Just because there's signed document it doesn't mean he ..."

He's always been a tremendous whiteknighter for the Dragoneer cause and nothing short of a direct intervention to pull his head out of Dragoneer's ass and strapping him down before he dives back in is going to change that. So don't bother arguing with him it's a damned brickwall.

I hate to put it that way Pheagle, but it's the damned truth and you know it. It's one thing to go "Hmmm that's a bit troublesome. I wonder what impact it will have..." And to repeatedly defend like a wannabe defense lawyer and come to the rescue of someone who abandoned the topic long ago. Particularly when you have been handed lots of evidence pointing to something considerably fishy.

If someone tells you that you're a duck, don't beleive it.
If two people tell you youre a duck, be skeptical.
If three people tell you you're a duck, you might be willing to check for yellow feathers and a webbed feet. Cause there may be some truth to it.

 

[AshleyAshes]

So, whenever someone can't get cub porn removed from FA due to unanswered tickets, the best route now is to tweet the issue to @IMVU and use the hashtag #ChildPornography, right? It just seems to me that that might lead to the fastest responses ever in FA's history.

 

[TheArchiver]

Are people still bothering to argue with that humongous brown-nosed kissass PheagleAdler? Y'all could give him scanned court documents with a final verdict ordering Dragoneer and IMVU to hand out direct compensation to the parties in question, and he'd still be going, "Look, hang on, let's give 'Neer the benifit of the doubt. Just because there's signed document it doesn't mean he ..."

He's always been a tremendous whiteknighter for the Dragoneer cause and nothing short of a direct intervention to pull his head out of Dragoneer's ass and strapping him down before he dives back in is going to change that. So don't bother arguing with him it's a damned brickwall.

I hate to put it that way Pheagle, but it's the damned truth and you know it. It's one thing to go "Hmmm that's a bit troublesome. I wonder what impact it will have..." And to repeatedly defend like a wannabe defense lawyer and come to the rescue of someone who abandoned the topic long ago. Particularly when you have been handed lots of evidence pointing to something considerably fishy.

If someone tells you that you're a duck, don't beleive it.
If two people tell you youre a duck, be skeptical.
If three people tell you you're a duck, you might be willing to check for yellow feathers and a webbed feet. Cause there may be some truth to it.

No mention of his constant vigilance on Twitter; policing accounts he knows are either satirical (FurAffinityPR) or have bad blood with Piche (Arc)?
But what is being said in response to his mind numbing damage control is still valuable. Despite the eagle plugging his own ears and covering his own eyes, someone else who is actually an adult will take something from nrr and Runefox's rebuttals. Or at least laugh with Gryphoneer. I say continue.

 

[miyevskr]

So, whenever someone can't get cub porn removed from FA due to unanswered tickets, the best route now is to tweet the issue to @IMVU and use the hashtag #ChildPornography, right? It just seems to me that that might lead to the fastest responses ever in FA's history.

Cute...

(The longer-term crackdown that would be likely to follow might be a bit of a bite in the ass, though).

 

[RedSavage]

No mention of his constant vigilance on Twitter; policing accounts he knows are either satirical (FurAffinityPR) or have bad blood with Piche (Arc)?
But what is being said in response to his mind numbing damage control is still valuable. Despite the eagle plugging his own ears and covering his own eyes, someone else who is actually an adult will take something from nrr and Runefox's rebuttals. Or at least laugh with Gryphoneer. I say continue.

I guess in the end I refuse to respect anyone who blindly takes faith one way or the other.

That said...

This is either going to be the best thing that happened to FA (actual management to handle the mess that is the site) or the worst thing (plug pulled). Either way, both are best case scenarios for this site. When you've got the track record that FA does, total annihilation and full reform are both acceptable plans of actions. In the words of the southern Fox News watcher, "Bomb 'em all." Honestly at this point the only way FA can truly fuck up is to continue on as it has, and no matter WHAT you believe in the long run, that's the simple plain truth of it.

 

[Runefox]

My problem with just letting FA implode upon itself is that there are people who depend upon the community that FA has built in order to make a living. While this won't disappear overnight, the ensuing months after the plug is pulled in the worst case scenario would be months of confusion and shuffling around, and artists who rely on getting exposure for their commissions and so on will spend that time mostly in the shadows. It's like getting laid off for them.

This isn't something that's a moonshot, either. FA could be shuttered for lack of performance, financial crush on IMVU's end, or even IMVU going under, which this move is obviously something that they're using to try and avoid that. It's one of many possible scenarios, but it's not out of the question. There's also scenarios where FA becomes untenable due to ads, paywalling, etc, and then there's scenarios where IMVU somehow makes money from running FA and continues to run it in a sensible fashion. But looking at their core business, I think the latter isn't likely in the long term.

Whatever happens, I recommend all artists who make a living from commissions, prints, etc expand their galleries to other places to ensure a measure of stability in that event.

 

[Anakarr]

Ok so, here are some facts... Since the staff nor site owner want to be forthcoming and admit these things or step up to the plate and take responsibility...

1. FA was essentially sold back in January. Its now March. You waited 2 months to tell your supporting users you have basically sold the site with all their information and owned imagery or content in it, to someone else.
2. There are repeated notations and conversations about competant staff being elbowed out, not receiving any pay or compensation for their work.
3. GoFundMe with-hel;d the donations while an investigation for fraud was launched due to the close timing of said DDOS attack.
4. FurAffinity has at least one admin/user that has committed crimes of a sexual nature, but instead of outting them and protecting others against them, FA continues to house this administrator/user and protect THEM.

Lets look at this... There are plenty of very capable programmers that would be more than willing to help with the site, but you haven't hired any of them. There are even those whom would do it for free, but again, you havent hired any of them. There are plenty of very capable moderators for the forum and the site. Once more, you haven't hired any of them. As far as I have experienced, the administration is lazy and half-ass things at best. No not ALL of them, but some of them.

We are your community. WE are what makes FA what it is. Not you... The community is what gives it the image. The community is what gives it popularity. The community is what keeps it SAFE. And you have basically screwed us at every turn. You house what would be felons. You treat your staff poorly. You keep the site just operational enough to barely be useable. There are people out there running sites in the same fashion, hardware wise, with more traffic, that experience less problems.

For all of those who will hate on this post. I dont hate FA... I hate how its been managed, and I hate how the owner of the site doesnt give enough of a crap about the community to inform us of things WHEN they are happening, or safeguard us against those who would do us harm, and have done others harm. WHAT THE HELL?!?! Get your *&^% together and grow a pair...

 

[November]

Are we ever going to get an explanation as to why it took TWO MONTHS for this acquisition to be announced? Further, since deals like this don't happen overnight, are we ever going to know when IMVU first expressed interest? It seems pretty fruitless to speculate about the future when we can't even get a straight answer about what happened in the past.

 

[Delta]

If this ends in a legal battle I would be willing to bet money that Dragoneer gets fired by IMVU at the very least.

I feel like if this all is actually playing out the way it seems to be and the other owner has the resources and the backbone to take Neer to court (here's to hoping) all of the questions of where that ten g's went will finally be answered truthfully and completely. There is, however, a nightmare scenario. Say Neer gets sued and IMVU steps up to bat for him. That would significantly deepen the rabbit hole and all of the conspiracy stewing up right now will pail in comparison to IMVU and Neer true motives and plans are.

Why do movie theatres even exist now that FA is around? Are people not entertained by this? This is Gold!

Are we ever going to get an explanation as to why it took TWO MONTHS for this acquisition to be announced? Further, since deals like this don't happen overnight, are we ever going to know when IMVU first expressed interest? It seems pretty fruitless to speculate about the future when we can't even get a straight answer about what happened in the past.

Fitting cement shoes is a process that takes longer than most.

 

[Xela-Dasi]

r.i.p Furaffinity

 

[Delta]

Cute...

(The longer-term crackdown that would be likely to follow might be a bit of a bite in the ass, though).

How to get the furry community to move to a different site:

1. Evict them from the current one.

 

[Volkodav]

How to get the furry community to move to a different site:

1. Evict them from the current one.

2. Have corrupt staff
3. Have unsavoury characters mod your site and allow other more likeminded people to run rampant
4. Ask for money for projects that will never come to completion

So, whenever someone can't get cub porn removed from FA due to unanswered tickets, the best route now is to tweet the issue to @IMVU and use the hashtag #ChildPornography, right? It just seems to me that that might lead to the fastest responses ever in FA's history.

That's assuming IMVU isnt going to mess with any porn rules and ban or limit porn outright, which is a possibility considering what their user base said about staff decisions when money is involved....

 

[mcjoel]

What about the forums how are they going to be affected are we going to have to use those god awful things imuv calls avatars will the rules change will we have IMUV mods here are we going to have adds all over the place and speaking of adds is the price to advertise on FA going to increase to the point no artist can afford to advertise on the mainsite?

 

[Vaelarsa]

Well, this got me to log on to the site to wipe my gallery, after a year-long hiatus, so there's that.
It was quite overdue, and I thank you for encouraging me to start spring cleaning a bit early this year.

As for the acquisition, I still think it's quite telling that even the IMVU users are worried for Furaffinity's sake.
When your own consumer base doesn't trust you, you know things are heading in ominous directions.
Reviews are often a more accurate and honest source of information than a company's PR attempts. It's good to keep that in mind.

As for the issue of whiteknighting going on in this thread:
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice...

 

[Verin Asper]

I like how the IMVU topic was WIPED CLEAN by their moderation team...which is a common thing as I use to be over there.
You cant talk bad about IMVU over there or risk losing your account, their own userbase know that IMVU is only doing this for money as they have to experience IMVU being all about money first hand.

IF anyone actually believe IMVU is doing this for the good of their hearts does not know what level of "good" imvu does...usually the good they do is good for their investors and the wanting to make a profit...