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FA/IMVU Discussion

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TheArchiver

Ace Documenter
that doesn't mean IMVU was stealing, its users are still the culprits.

We're aware. IMVU does nothing or at the very least not enough to quell the sheer rampancy of it. This is the crux of the issue. FA was sold to a site that does not care. This is what I said, and you completely ignored.

White knight.
 

mcjoel

Pepmurrmint Fox
Ignore phil smelge as arguing with him is pointless and could get this thread locked which he and tge mods probably want.
 

Calemeyr

Vere Adeptus
The problem with IMVU is that nobody has heard of it. The furry community for that kind of thing is embedded in SL. To me, the acquisition seems more like a cynical "if we own their site, maybe they'll make the switch". They want to audience, but I suspect they've been mis-sold this site. They thought they were getting a captive audience without knowing the kind of history it had with the users, and how badly the site has fucked people over in the past. I get the impression that a lot of people were looking for an excuse to make a switch, and as fuck-up followed fuck-up it's making it seem more of a sensible plan to start migrating.

I get that feeling too. I don't think IMVU would be dumb enough not to have an escape plan if things go pear shaped. I think IMVU may be too confident that furs will switch, and when they realize furs aren't jumping over, they'll resell or just dump FA like yesterday's garbage. Either way, things are not looking good for the future of the site. Though if Linden Labs could buy FA...that might work nicely.

Simple, tell the high-ups who see the SL work to fuck off. Couldn't be more simple, right? And it feels good to tell them off for screwing us over. Either that, or simply install ad-blocking add-ons for Chrome/Firefox that block anything the place? I don't know what would happen, SL is better than that stupid IMVU site will ever be anyways. Sorry, but Second Life will get more money way before IMVU does, as that will be a cold day in hell.
You're definitely not alone with this. I'm pretty sure a majority of furs feel this way. Seriously, I thought IMVU was like yahoo answers/Gaia forums, not an SL knockoff.
 
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PheagleAdler

Well-Known Member
I get that feeling too. I don't think IMVU would be dumb enough not to have an escape plan if things go pear shaped. I think IMVU may be too confident that furs will switch, and when they realize furs aren't jumping over, they'll resell or just dump FA like yesterday's garbage. Either way, things are not looking good for the future of the site.


You're definitely not alone with this. I'm pretty sure a majority of furs feel this way. Seriously, I thought IMVU was like yahoo answers/Gaia forums, not an SL knockoff.

Yahoo Answers? That's bad enough, the place has turned into nothing but bad questions, bad answers, and spam. And apparently their format change allows people to respond to questions that were expired YEARS ago.
 

PastryOfApathy

Well-Known Member
Personally, I think SL and IMVU screenshots have no place on an art site unless it's content that the submitter has actually created. Which it rarely is.

Well to be fair, there's a lot of things regularly posted on FA that don't belong on an art site. Or any site really.
 
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Ansitru

Guest
Y'know, after following this this thread passively and vowing to never touch this account again after the last fuck-up, I just had to log in to say a couple of things.

- Yes art theft happens on other sites. Except FA is now owned by a site that actively profits off of it and makes it difficult to report, so ... y'know. There's that.
- PheagleAdler: you are a brownnoser, even if you don't want to hear it. Someone posts proof, you immediately stand at the ready to defend the actions by using the most twisted logic I've ever seen. If anything, I'm in awe at the fact that you constantly seem to be able to find excuses. Go into PR, man. Do something productive with that particular skill of yours.

Other than that: same shit, different day.
 
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TheArchiver

Ace Documenter
Ignore phil smelge as arguing with him is pointless and could get this thread locked which he and tge mods probably want.

Pheagle's attitude is merely an example of a side problem FA faces, that a large group of people simply don't care and want to force others to follow suit. Granted in an army of white knights, Pheagle's the Fuhrer and gladly accepts his leadership position. The term "hate begets hate" sound familiar? Well stupid begets stupid and that's not entirely healthy. We respond when he says something profoundly idiotic because it damages the situation further if we let it continue. The same goes for other people of his ilk not knowing a damn thing they're talking about and downplaying legitimate concerns.

If he wants to be "neutral" and "optimistic" fine. But he's not. There have been a few people who think this may be better for FA and have given their reasons why. I disagree, but I respect them for not being obtuse about it. He's damage controlling and flagrantly disregarding facts, taunting more civil users when they respond in opposition, and going to profiles to harass them like he did to RedSavage. By the way, I thank you Smelge for digging up the old threads of our little pet eagle though. I now fully recall him and understand what sort of gross individual he can be.

I realize I am not making the best response for this thread. I just find plucking his feathers enjoyable when it's appropriate, though for the sake of the thread, I'll make an effort to relax.
 
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Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
As funny as it is to see steam blow out Pheagle's ears, I'm going to go ahead and bring us back on topic. There have been a few points raised that have some impact on the discussion and I feel that they're being missed.

First, IMVU requiring a SSN, credit card in-name, and regular selfies with photo ID to access AP content. That makes it even more difficult for artists to access the AP section of the site for the purposes of issuing DMCA requests.

Second, IMVU disallowing sexual displays / depictions of arousal / etc. That sounds fine, but there are two problems with that:

1) FurAffinity is rife with that.
2) So is IMVU's store.

Third, Dragoneer is being paid partly with money gained through sale of stolen artwork, but IMVU is unwilling to cooperate with artists who don't want to buy into their paywalled AP service in order to actually make a DMCA takedown. This is probably the most damning after considering the rest, because it ultimately shows that IMVU is actively attempting to make it as difficult as possible to remove stolen content from their storefront. For as strict as the rest of their policies appear to be, the glaring omission of any apparent policing of copyright in the store is a clear signal that they wish to profit from the content regardless, for as long as legally possible. It is literally not legal for a US company to do any less than respond to a DMCA claim, and they willfully are making it difficult to both search the store and access very likely more than half the applicable content for copyright holders to browse. That in itself may not even be legal, but IMVU clearly doesn't care where money is involved as long as nobody calls them out on it.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Wow, I love how Dragoneer acknowledges the fact we're all facepalming https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/580400165376385025 and yet, he now sites on a mountain of cash. Why are we not surprised? Oy vey...
Some are, yes. I knew not everyone would be warm and welcoming to *any* change. Any announcement, no matter how small, is always met with resistance (even stating "Hey, you now have new categories to upload your art to!" gets met with resistance).

And when did I say I have a mountain of cash? I wish I had a mountain of cash. I need new brakes for my car and I really, REALLY want to buy a new monitor. So, if you find my piles of cash, please let me know.
 

Smelge

Hey, Assbutt
By the way, I thank you Smelge for digging up the old threads of our little pet eagle though.

Credit where credit is due, I got those threads from a source. Don't thank me for them. However I remember his bullshit from back when I came here, so I was more than happy to spread the wealth.

First, IMVU requiring a SSN, credit card in-name, and regular selfies with photo ID to access AP content. That makes it even more difficult for artists to access the AP section of the site for the purposes of issuing DMCA requests.

Makes it impossible for people outside the US as well if it requires an SSN.
 
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krystalfox77

Offcial Krystal
Some are, yes. I knew not everyone would be warm and welcoming to *any* change. Any announcement, no matter how small, is always met with resistance (even stating "Hey, you now have new categories to upload your art to!" gets met with resistance).

And when did I say I have a mountain of cash? I wish I had a mountain of cash. I need new brakes for my car and I really, REALLY want to buy a new monitor. So, if you find my piles of cash, please let me know.

Then why are you not saying anything on the journal that people linked to you? Why are you not quelling their fears and concerns, and why are you not doing anything about making it easier for people to file DMCA claims without having to use their SSN and credit card information? This is a big mess, dude, what are people supposed to do about it? :( Ignoring the Tweets that people send you really only makes things worse, wouldn't you agree? ;) I want this drama to end, we all do, but, what are we supposed to do if our art keeps getting stolen and don't want to give out our SSN and other info to sign up?
 
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Ansitru

Guest
Then why are you not saying anything on the journal that people linked to you? Why are you not quelling their fears and concerns, and why are you not doing anything about making it easier for people to file DMCA claims without having to use their SSN and credit card information? This is a big mess, dude, what are people supposed to do about it? :(

If the past is any indication? We're supposed to forget and settle down because we won't be getting the answers we need.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Wrote some stuff...
IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists. I do not have a good answer. Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.

I've never been for art theft. I'm an artist, my wife's an artist, pretty much all of my friends and family are. I get there are some issues now, but we are working on trying to smooth them out.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Then why are you not saying anything on the journal that people linked to you? Why are you not quelling their fears and concerns, and why are you not doing anything about making it easier for people to file DMCA claims without having to use their SSN and credit card information? This is a big mess, dude, what are people supposed to do about it? :(
You may want to actuall look into what it takes to file a DMCA, because it's not hard. All you have to do to file a DMCA to IMVU is write out a DMCA and send it to dmca@imvu.com.

That's it. No money. No SSN. No credit card. Just file a DMCA. Get a proper DMCA form, fill it out, send it. The entire process is pretty painless.
 

krystalfox77

Offcial Krystal
IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists. I do not have a good answer. Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.

I've never been for art theft. I'm an artist, my wife's an artist, pretty much all of my friends and family are. I get there are some issues now, but we are working on trying to smooth them out.

That's certainly more than fair enough. Many of us didn't know what was truly going on, other than mass confusion. But the sad thing is, many people are jumping ship, I don't know if those people will ever come back :(

You may want to actuall look into what it takes to file a DMCA, because it's not hard. All you have to do to file a DMCA to IMVU is write out a DMCA and send it to dmca@imvu.com.

That's it. No money. No SSN. No credit card. Just file a DMCA. Get a proper DMCA form, fill it out, send it. The entire process is pretty painless.

That doesn't change the fact I would have to still sign up, use my SSN, credit card in order to access the marketplace and actually see the product ID. We shouldn't have to, you know? What's going to happen? Are you going to update a journal and further clarify the issue?
 

AshleyAshes

Arcade Snowmew Of Doom
IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists. I do not have a good answer. Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.

I've never been for art theft. I'm an artist, my wife's an artist, pretty much all of my friends and family are. I get there are some issues now, but we are working on trying to smooth them out.

Just to be clear here: Even you, as an IMVU employee, can't really do anything about pirated materials on IMVU. You can't be like 'Hey guys, this is clearly pirated, hose it' but instead you have contact the artist and make THEM file a LEGAL THREAT against IMVU just to make any of the gears in the system move? You are THAT powerless and IMVU is THAT unwilling to act except to require the artist to make the most effort possible?

Because, for the sake of comparison, if three months ago I uploaded another artists artwork and said 'I MADE THIS' you or another FA admin would have just deleted it. That's it it SHOULD work on an art site. You shouldn't be requiring all your artists to say 'TAKE IT DOWN OR ELSE COURT'.
 

Smelge

Hey, Assbutt
You may want to actuall look into what it takes to file a DMCA, because it's not hard. All you have to do to file a DMCA to IMVU is write out a DMCA and send it to dmca@imvu.com.

That's it. No money. No SSN. No credit card. Just file a DMCA. Get a proper DMCA form, fill it out, send it. The entire process is pretty painless.

But you need those things if your work is in the Adult section. Add in to that a DMCA is American. Anywhere that isn't America can still use it but it's not really something that can be backed up by courts.

ARGH. Fuck you for making me defend FA here, but:
Just to be clear here: Even you, as an IMVU employee, can't really do anything about pirated materials on IMVU. You can't be like 'Hey guys, this is clearly pirated, hose it' but instead you have contact the artist and make THEM file a LEGAL THREAT against IMVU just to make any of the gears in the system move? You are THAT powerless and IMVU is THAT unwilling to act except to require the artist to make the most effort possible?

You're being unfair there. There's no guarantee that the person who uploaded the stuff on IMVU isn't the actual artist. Any sort of claim has to come from the party that's been harmed, not from a third party, so this is actually a legitimate response.
 
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krystalfox77

Offcial Krystal
Just to be clear here: Even you, as an IMVU employee, can't really do anything about pirated materials on IMVU. You can't be like 'Hey guys, this is clearly pirated, hose it' but instead you have contact the artist and make THEM file a LEGAL THREAT against IMVU just to make any of the gears in the system move? You are THAT powerless and IMVU is THAT unwilling to act except to require the artist to make the most effort possible?

Because, for the sake of comparison, if three months ago I uploaded another artists artwork and said 'I MADE THIS' you or another FA admin would have just deleted it. That's it it SHOULD work on an art site. You shouldn't be requiring all your artists to say 'TAKE IT DOWN OR ELSE COURT'.
Well, those outside the US are SOL, and the IMVU doesn't seem to care enough to want to do anything about it, because it's a known fact that it's a long and drawn-out process that isn't even guaranteed to work 100% of the time, am I wrong?

But you need those things if your work is in the Adult section. Add in to that a DMCA is American. Anywhere that isn't America can still use it but it's not really something that can be backed up by courts.
What about those who live outside the US? They're shit outta luck, they can't file DMCA claims because they are just...well, screwed. For the adult section, yeah, you need to put in billing info, which is utterly asinine. When is he going to go in and reassure those who can't file claims?

Edit: Well look at that, Dragoneer was online for a whopping five minutes. Ugh.
 

TheArchiver

Ace Documenter
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6603906/

Onta's jumping ship. That's a pretty big name to lose for FA, it's like a mall losing it's Target, not good for the whole mall. This IMVU thing might be where FA finally sinks.

And Dragoneer is groveling at his feet in the comments. But anything else from common users is completely ignored. I don't think I'd trust a site asking for my SSN to remove my content. There is very little else one could do if THAT is a requirement. I don't blame Onta for leaving.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
That doesn't change the fact I would have to still sign up, use my SSN, credit card in order to access the marketplace and actually see the product ID. We shouldn't have to, you know? What's going to happen? Are you going to update a journal and further clarify the issue?
IMVU is aware of some of the issues users are facing, and I'm spending a good chunk of my time helping artists track down and identify content so we can get it removed.
 

AshleyAshes

Arcade Snowmew Of Doom
You're being unfair there. There's no guarantee that the person who uploaded the stuff on IMVU isn't the actual artist. Any sort of claim has to come from the party that's been harmed, not from a third party, so this is actually a legitimate response.

But this burden has never existed on FA. No one was ever going to go 'Well, how on earth do we know that this AshleyAshes account isn't the Alt and Honest-And-True account for Strypes? We better play it safe and leave it'. No, they'd HOSE THE GALLERY. Hell, if I did it enough, they'd ban me. The real artist(s) could be on vacation to Hawaii, miles from their computers or phones, and FA admins would cleaning house without legal threats.

...Well, assuming anyone ever read the trouble ticket about it.
 

krystalfox77

Offcial Krystal
IMVU is aware of some of the issues users are facing, and I'm spending a good chunk of my time helping artists track down and identify content so we can get it removed.
And what of those who live outside the US? As far as I know, that concern hasn't been addressed, am I wrong? The DMCA only applies to US citizens, not those who live in Europe, Oceania, Asia, etc, so essentially what you're saying to those people is, "Sorry, you live outside the US, you're shit outta luck"? No offense, but I personally think Second Life would have been a much better choice to sell FA to, but that's just me, and well, many others in the furry community TBH. That's me being brutally honest.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
I need new brakes for my car and I really, REALLY want to buy a new monitor. So, if you find my piles of cash, please let me know.

Didn't you just get $2200+ in donations to buy a new Cintiq?

IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists.
They're aware, but so far I've seen no indication that they care.

Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.
... Which involves either you forwarding them the link to the content, or them paying your employers money and providing personal info in exchange for the privilege of accessing the AP section to file the DMCA.

That's it. No money. No SSN. No credit card. Just file a DMCA. Get a proper DMCA form, fill it out, send it. The entire process is pretty painless.
... Except to view the AP section in the first place, you need:

  • Money
  • SSN
  • Credit card in-name
  • Photographic record of you holding your photo ID
In addition to...

  • The DMCA form
  • A few months of your time for IMVU to review

IMVU is aware of some of the issues users are facing, and I'm spending a good chunk of my time helping artists track down and identify content so we can get it removed.
Okay, so are you removing it for them, or are you telling them to sign up for AP and file a DMCA?
 
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