FA/IMVU Discussion

[fleshy2]

This is actually rather confusing, because...



And yet...



But then...



So... Whuh?

I dunno, but it's allowed and has been for years. Here's another thread with more info: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=443927

The OP disabled her account because she got tired of IMVU's shit, but everything she posted is true and you can even see mods posting there as well.

 

[Blitza]

No, no respect. It's stupid and wasteful. If he's being paid to work now he's essentially browsing rather than doing stuff thats important for the site. Hosting thumbnails of all the relevant searches with the link for use in case of a DMCA would take very little time and allow people to look for themselves. There's a simple solution, but yet again the 'waste a fuckton of time' solution is being used.

Surely there's someone on staff able to write a script or code a simple website?

Well what should i say i am still very made that Neer did sell US to IMVU and didnt ask or tell us sooner, also i am pretty mad that art from alot Friends and me is there and nothing happens.

We can talk all day about it but in short what can we or he do ??

I know from about 20 artists i know there about to leave FA like Onta, when Onta did wrote that Journal the others jump the ship too.

Means sooner or later if this continue FA is dead or even more worse the Furry Comunity will be broken since 90% whas build up on FA.

I am sorry for my bad english i try my best to bring over my Frustration about this all, i am 13 years in the comunity and spend really really much Money like others on FA artists and now some like that happen......

 

[krystalfox77]

I'm done with the thread, it's getting my blood boiled, this is not healthy for me to get so upset

 

[Silvershock]

Pool the talent in these forums and make the tools to make it easy for artists to switch to other sites. That is concrete action that will mete out the punishment you seek.

-Seth

Don't want to say anything just yet because I'm still early in development, but after our purchase offer was declined I began work on a new project to make things easier for those who wish to use multiple sites.

 

[Runefox]

I dunno, but it's allowed and has been for years. Here's another thread with more info: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=443927

The OP disabled her account because she got tired of IMVU's shit, but everything she posted is true and you can even see mods posting there as well.

This is interesting, because it essentially means that IMVU isn't even respecting their own ToS anymore. Assuming that the ToS link on the website is accurate (and if not, that's another red flag). Since their own ToS doesn't explain how to become a "registered reseller", do you have any information on the topic? Have you ever been involved with a reseller?

Don't want to say anything just yet because I'm still early in development, but after our purchase offer was declined I began work on a new project to make things easier for those who wish to use multiple sites.

This is also interesting. Is this yet another site (presumably with blackjack and hookers), or is this a utility that will allow for easier cross-site posting and networking?

 

[Volkodav]

Y'all are too much, man
This is just ridiculous

 

[fleshy2]

The website for the directory isn't created by IMVU, but the resellers do have permission to sell credits. I think that's what got you confused. Ordinary users are not allowed to sell credits to other users (hey guys, who wants 50k, gimme your paypal), they can only sell to registered resellers. There used to be an application, but I think IMVU no longer accepts any more.

Edited to add: Many of my friends and acquaintances sell their credits to registered resellers, and anyone who is smart will buy credits from resellers since it's half the price of what IMVU offers in the credit store, and it supports creators.

 

[Tchelline]

I love how everyone is mad at Dragoneer and his obvious betrayal, and when he comes here - almost - everyone vow at him, kiss his feet and believe his lies further.

Every single one of his posts can easily be resumed to "I'm working on it, everything is ok", and you guys calmed down even after he spoke the same lies once again.

Are you scared of him or something?

 

[Volkodav]

Apathy and learned helplessness are different from fear

 

[krystalfox77]

I love how everyone is mad at Dragoneer and his obvious betrayal, and when he comes here - almost - everyone vow at him, kiss his feet and believe his lies further.

Every single one of his posts can easily be resumed to "I'm working on it, everything is ok", and you guys calmed down even after he spoke the same lies once again.

Are you scared of him or something?

Hey, at least he showed up and explained the situation. People really are blowing this way out of proportion.

 

[Runefox]

The website for the directory isn't created by IMVU, but the resellers do have permission to sell credits. I think that's what got you confused. Ordinary users are not allowed to sell credits (hey guys, who wants 50k, gimme your paypal), only registered resellers. There used to be an application, but I think IMVU no longer accepts any more.

Well that's the problem. Assuming these sites HAVE the written permission by IMVU that their ToS requires to resell credits, users still are technically bound by the ToS and are thus not allowed to sell their credits on. There's nothing excepting that in the ToS except written permission, which I'm sure most users don't have. So either they forgot to update their ToS or this flew under legal and upper management's radar.

 

[FYIAD]

I would be willing to do this, Have been trying to get in touch with IMVU to make them aware of the offer. Looking for help with that introduction if anyone can.

Truth be told, I don't know offhand who all was involved with that offer and who was lead. That's the person I'd contact; the business is between him, his group, and IMVU. However, if they are interested but the pooled funds aren't sufficient, I'm hoping things might be opened up further so that others may have a chance. It is my understanding that they intended to keep it within a group of reputable folk rather than selling things off to the highest bidder. I respect that, though I'm sure that disqualifies me; I'm unknown and that's the way I am most comfortable.

If they weren't interested, then crowdfunding might be an option but I haven't a clue how that would leave things. I am not keen on the idea of throwing money into a donation just so one other person can own FA and I'd like things to be structured so there aren't a few hundred owners. Power should be dilute, but not to the point that decisions can't be made because we can't get everyone's attention.

Then again, I'd prefer a thousand owners of FA than IMVU ownership; I'll take the devils I know over the devil I don't.

 

[Blitza]

I love how everyone is mad at Dragoneer and his obvious betrayal, and when he comes here - almost - everyone vow at him, kiss his feet and believe his lies further.

Every single one of his posts can easily be resumed to "I'm working on it, everything is ok", and you guys calmed down even after he spoke the same lies once again.

Are you scared of him or something?

With words i believe you cant save FA anymore, is this all about Neer or about saving FA before it dies ??

Were all are made at him and for my comment i had hope he meant it true that he helps to find stolen artwork but in really ist pretty useless and is just there that he Shows himself good and helpfully what he isnt..........

 

[Tchelline]

Hey, at least he showed up and explained the situation. People really are blowing this way out of proportion.

"Im working on it, I assure everything is kays" is not explaining things.

 

[Runefox]

I love how everyone is mad at Dragoneer and his obvious betrayal, and when he comes here - almost - everyone vow at him, kiss his feet and believe his lies further.

Every single one of his posts can easily be resumed to "I'm working on it, everything is ok", and you guys calmed down even after he spoke the same lies once again.

Are you scared of him or something?

Yelling at him to his face only makes him ignore you or worse. What's more, yelling at him only makes you look like a rabid dog, and that lends credibility to his dismissal of our concerns. The best approach (and this really applies to any situation) is to directly challenge what he says. Ask for proof to back up his claims. Ask for examples. Ask for anything that will prove him right. If it's there, then we were wrong anyway. If it's not and he ignores us, then that gives us the upper hand.

In this case, he chose not to provide that.

 

[fleshy2]

Well that's the problem. Assuming these sites HAVE the written permission by IMVU that their ToS requires to resell credits, users still are technically bound by the ToS and are thus not allowed to sell their credits on. There's nothing excepting that in the ToS except written permission, which I'm sure most users don't have. So either they forgot to update their ToS or this flew under legal and upper management's radar.

I think you don't understand the whole reseller thing lol. The only way resellers get the credits to begin with are from creators selling it to them. Then the resellers sell the credits to users. I believe SL has something similar, Anshe has her own reseller website and sells both IMVU credits and lindens (whatever their currency is called).

 

[RTDragon]

Wow i just got back from work and all hell breaks loose. Just looked through at what happened after i last commented a few hours ago.

 

[Runefox]

I think you don't understand the whole reseller thing lol. The only way resellers get the credits to begin with are from creators selling it to them. Then the resellers sell the credits to users. I believe SL has something similar, Anshe has her own reseller website and sells both IMVU credits and lindens (whatever their currency is called).

No, I understand, I'm just pointing out that the whole thing violates the ToS as it's written. Even if the resellers had IMVU's written permission (which is the only condition under which credits are allowed to be resold according to the ToS), users would not. So the whole thing really doesn't make any sense. If they're allowing it, they really should have updated their ToS back in 2012. If they aren't, then they're simply not enforcing their ToS. Both imply an unacceptable level of laziness (I suppose it was taking too many resources to crack down on IMVU credit resellers and they decided "fuck it").

 

[FYIAD]

First, what is the point of raging? Aside from being cathartic, what is there to be gained? Does FA ownership revert back – and what good does that really do me if it goes back to the person I’m meant to be raging at?

Second, in the off chance that Dragoeer maintains some genuine amount of power, I’d rather he be willing to prevent IMVU from driving FA straight into the ground if/when they realize that they’ve made a critical error in judgment. He can’t make the call, but I prefer keeping people with any influence away from the “Burn it! Burn it all to the ground!”-mentality.

Third, I’ve got to be honest, I’d love to have some understanding of how he came to believe this was a good move. I don’t like assigning motives to people; I don’t believe in good or evil; and rarely ever is someone’s motivation so simple as pure greed or mere idiocy. I learn more the more he speaks, whereas throwing verbal Molotov’s in his direction doesn’t exactly yield new information; fun fact: it isn't super effective! (And yes, I’m quite aware that I’ll never have anything approaching a full understanding of how his version of reality so vastly differs from my own; my curiousity remains.)

Fourth, I’m resigned to the fact that this situation could scarcely be more out of my control than it is now; I also suspect that the situation is pretty much out of his hands, too. I’m too tired to be devoting energy to fruitless endeavors.

So, short of feeling better for prodding at the one who wronged you, what does being upset net you?

 

[FYIAD]

No, I understand, I'm just pointing out that the whole thing violates the ToS as it's written. Even if the resellers had IMVU's written permission (which is the only condition under which credits are allowed to be resold according to the ToS), users would not. So the whole thing really doesn't make any sense. If they're allowing it, they really should have updated their ToS back in 2012. If they aren't, then they're simply not enforcing their ToS. Both imply an unacceptable level of laziness (I suppose it was taking too many resources to crack down on IMVU credit resellers and they decided "fuck it").

Well, given that they care so little about theft from others, it is rather charming to know that they are similarly blasé when it’s their own pockets being picked.

If I were trying to figure out how this makes sense, I figure it’s a balance of what you said, with them just not wanting to devote any resources to stemming the losses; and, as a motivation for that, this allows for a bit of black market liquidity, it allows the people “generating” all that content a reason to keep going at it, all while IMVU still gets a cut on the backend of every sale.

Save money and effort; encourage continued “content creation” amongst the black market pirates; and still collect a bit of monetary value at the end of the day! What's not to love about that plan, assuming you're IMVU?

 

[Accountability]

IMVU is aware of the issue that their requirements to register to view adult content is causing some artists. I do not have a good answer. Suffice to say, some parts of my day are spent browsing looking for copyright content, and I will be contacting artists I can identify and let them know how to get their content removed.

Shouldn't you just be sending these links to someone at IMVU that can just... delete the stuff?? Just sayin'. It's pretty fucking obvious that Blotch is not on IMVU at all, and certainly not with multiple accounts.

If IMVU's only recourse to solving this issue is having you tell artists their art was stolen (which I imagine you are doing on your own volition and not an official part of your "job") so the artists can file a DMCA, then it's pretty fucking clear that they don't care.

EDIT: Kalmor is still here? Wow, I guess he has a strange definition of "very near future"...

Hand on heart this is legit and I will personally resign from my post out of my own frustration if nothing happens in the very near future.

I am super stoked to finally see improvements but I cannot talk about specifics as everything not already mentioned by neer on twitter is still under NDA.

 

[fleshy2]

No, I understand, I'm just pointing out that the whole thing violates the ToS as it's written. Even if the resellers had IMVU's written permission (which is the only condition under which credits are allowed to be resold according to the ToS), users would not. So the whole thing really doesn't make any sense. If they're allowing it, they really should have updated their ToS back in 2012. If they aren't, then they're simply not enforcing their ToS. Both imply an unacceptable level of laziness (I suppose it was taking too many resources to crack down on IMVU credit resellers and they decided "fuck it").

I am pretty sure you are just misreading the TOS. Creators have been selling credits to resellers for years (some make six figure incomes) and if it violated the IMVU TOS in some way, even the slightest, someone would have heard about it. Users cannot just set up some random website to resell credits, they can only do it through a registered reseller, who has permission. Most resellers wouldn't even exist if it weren't for creators selling them the credits. IMVU cracks down on people making illegal reseller sites and users selling credits to other users. It can only be done through a reseller.

 

[Runefox]

Well, given that they care so little about theft from others, it is rather charming to know that they are similarly blasé when it’s their own pockets being picked.

Charming, yes, but not at all calming. It's further proof that our fears regarding IMVU's interest in policing their store are rather well founded, and that any efforts in the short term to fix that may not extend into the long term.

Save money and effort; encourage continued “content creation” amongst the black market pirates; and still collect a bit of monetary value at the end of the day! What's not to love about that plan, assuming you're IMVU?

I suppose as long as the "registered resellers" send back a cut to IMVU when credits are resold, IMVU can't really complain too much, but it's sub-optimal compared to people simply buying more credits from them. Still, I suppose a cheaper solution than the legal fees required to play whack-a-mole with the black market.

I am pretty sure you are just misreading the TOS. Creators have been selling credits to resellers for years (some make six figure incomes) and if it violated the IMVU TOS in some way, even the slightest, someone would have heard about it. Users cannot just set up some random website to resell credits, they can only do it through a registered reseller, who has permission. Most resellers wouldn't even exist if it weren't for creators selling them the credits. IMVU cracks down on people making illegal reseller sites and users selling credits to other users. It can only be done through a reseller.

Go ahead and read the ToS. There's absolutely no language about official resellers, and the only place the term "resell" even shows up is in reference to explicitly disallowing resale of credits as I quoted earlier. There simply isn't anything in the ToS enabling people to use a reseller or even for resellers to exist without express written consent, so either they're stretching the express written consent part a little far or it's de jure disallowed but de facto allowed.

 

[Verin Asper]

I am pretty sure you are just misreading the TOS. Creators have been selling credits to resellers for years (some make six figure incomes) and if it violated the IMVU TOS in some way, even the slightest, someone would have heard about it. Users cannot just set up some random website to resell credits, they can only do it through a registered reseller, who has permission. Most resellers wouldn't even exist if it weren't for creators selling them the credits. IMVU cracks down on people making illegal reseller sites and users selling credits to other users. It can only be done through a reseller.

no they arent, they are just pointing out that IMVU's TOS doesnt actually state the allowance of Resellers despite the fact they do.
in other words "IMVU's ToS havent been updated to state that folks should only get the credits from either them, or one of the registered Resellers". Their ToS still states "do not resell credits". Second Life have a ToS stating reselling is fine from Registered Resellers, they even went further to include a list ON THEIR SITE of verified resellers...just like how they also include a list of viewers they recognized officially to be used to connect to SL.

 

[FYIAD]

Charming, yes, but not at all calming. It's further proof that our fears regarding IMVU's interest in policing their store are rather well founded, and that any efforts in the short term to fix that may not extend into the long term.


I suppose as long as the "registered resellers" send back a cut to IMVU when credits are resold, IMVU can't really complain too much, but it's sub-optimal compared to people simply buying more credits from them. Still, I suppose a cheaper solution than the legal fees required to play whack-a-mole with the black market.



Go ahead and read the ToS. There's absolutely no language about official resellers, and the only place the term "resell" even shows up is in reference to explicitly disallowing resale of credits as I quoted earlier. There simply isn't anything in the ToS enabling people to use a reseller or even for resellers to exist without express written consent, so either they're stretching the express written consent part a little far or it's de jure disallowed but de facto allowed.

I feel as though you underestimate how useful having that ability to turn credits back into cash is. If it weren’t the case, then one could argue that theft was just a means to a silly end: getting enough credits to buy whatever silly thing IMVU sells that their users/players like. Once you open up the ability to shift credits between accounts, you’ve allowed people to funnel their proceeds. Making it easier still encourages yet more theft, which brings more new users to IMVU with newly bought IMVU credits to burn on all the new content on sale. So long as new people’s money keeps flowing in to buy the offender’s offerings, IMVU is making money at a solid pace; if new content wasn’t generated swift enough to keep luring people in, the system might falter. The black market’s liquidity is way of baiting in few meat; it is an important feature in their system.

Presumably the people buying credits in bulk on the market are more familiar with the landscape and have already paid their fair share to IMVU. That's another angle for another day, so far as I'm concerned.