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FA/IMVU Discussion

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krystalfox77

Offcial Krystal
I never heard anyone ever say its boring if anything its entertaining.
I just wish Dragoneer had the balls to actually make a new journal entry and explain everything that's been going on in depth, including why he wasn't being transparent about the business deal two bloody months ago. Was there some kind of non-disclosure agreement he was forced to sign at gunpoint, forcing him not to tell anyone until it was too late? There is no reason for him NOT to tell the members on FA what's going on. Nothing is inhibiting him from doing so.
 

FYIAD

Member
This whole lawsuit thing seems to be pointing in the wrong direction; IMVU specifically declines to provide any damages for sold works, and I suppose the fact that they're purchased with funbux insulates them from that responsibility despite being compelled to respond to DMCA claims. Whether or not that's legal is a decision for the courts, but it seems to me that it could go either way and isn't a battle worth fighting since no one stands to gain anything.

The big sticking point that seems like it's ripe for legal picking is the fact that AP content is hidden from view and there is no obvious, legitimate method for discovering what is behind it without first paying for the privilege. It implies specific intent to prevent copyright holders from discovering abuse in order to continue to profit both from VIP passes and from sales of the stolen content. In effect, they're using stolen content as incentives to drive sales both to their VIP section and credits to purchase these items. This obviously spreads further than the furry subset, as there's plenty of copyrighted works in anime and other categories of artwork as well being sold. The VIP section itself contains as many or more pieces of adult furry content as the GA store does clean, and virtually all of it (at least the vast majority) is stolen. The problem, then, becomes one of gathering enough copyright holders with enough at collective stake to make a lawsuit worthwhile, since the cost of combating IMVU would be great.

With that in mind, I'm not sure that legal action is the best decision. We can however agree that the business practices are despicable at best, and a middle finger to the artists whose main source of distribution these people now own. No amount of damage control will save them from this beyond a complete restructuring of their store, and frankly, I don't think they have the motivation to do it.

Anyway, Dragoneer bending over for popular artists, surprising no one. More at 11.

EDIT: lol @ the art thief being all salty about losing his stolen art business

I agree, with the sole exception of the guy who may own 50%, I don't feel as though there is any legal action that is likely to be a net positive -- and even then, I have zero faith in this claim until I see some sort of hard evidence. I hope it's so, I'd very much like it, but I'm not going to sit and hope and do nothing else.

I agree with your description of IMVU's business model; however, they are going to claim that the payment to reach AP areas is merely incidental, as is their profiting from stolen content. The whole thing is ugly, but people have been hiding content behind paywalls without anyone policing things behind it for a very long time. Either there is case law that offers some manner of shield or no one has really felt it worthwhile to throw money at it and/or settled before a ruling could be issued.

Either way, no amount of action on our part is likely to change IMVU's business model, which is what revamping the store would likely entail; the problem is that big for them.

In the end, my primary objective is getting FA back into fandom hands. I just don't have a great way of dealing with the art theft; and, to be brutally honest, if I had to choose between getting FA back or fixing IMVU's store, I'm going with FA. I feel the odds are better, I at least have a slight chance of possibly influencing things to play out in that direction, and it's where my interests lie.
 
I totally agree with you that we need to get FA back in the hands of the community but this time rather than Have one person own and run it Have a full Board running a team of admins and a team of PR's as well as a team of techs all have to be volunteers at first though. then Follow the model I discussed in the journal earlier.
 

FYIAD

Member
I just wish Dragoneer had the balls to actually make a new journal entry and explain everything that's been going on in depth, including why he wasn't being transparent about the business deal two bloody months ago. Was there some kind of non-disclosure agreement he was forced to sign at gunpoint, forcing him not to tell anyone until it was too late? There is no reason for him NOT to tell the members on FA what's going on. Nothing is inhibiting him from doing so.

You’ll be waiting a long time for those sorts of answers, I reckon.

The NDA’s two month embargo would likely have been made to make sure that no one could scuttle the deal before things could be cemented. I get the feeling that if the conversation came up in public, there would have been enough outrage that IMVU would want to pull out – and maybe Dragoneer would get an offer that was better than he got from IMVU. So for both parties had reasons to keep things quiet for fear that the other may ditch the deal.
The only thing I don’t really understand about the NDA is why no one was prepared to get ahead of this backlash. I mean, if you had 60 days to figure out how to break the news, you would suspect that someone more comprehensive would have been prepared, right? I sort of wonder if Dragoneer thought IMVU was going to handle PR; I mean, PR isn’t his forte. (Nothing against that, there is a reason people are trained for that job. It’s too careful to go too far in an excited moment and try to polish the unpolishable – that’s where that deleted tweet comes in. It’s exactly what I’d say if I was having too much fun playing devil’s advocate to care about the repercussions.) Either way, I feel that they squandered an opportunity to get ahead of the outrage – that, or Dragoneer is meant to keep taking the outrage to tire people out and distract them from directing their anger towards IMVU. (If the latter is the case, I wonder if he knew that was going to be in his job description..)
Depending on the NDA, I imagine that the nitty-gritty is still protected unless the other party consents to its disclosure. That’s why we’ll never get the information; unless they wrote in an expiration date (why would they?), it’s a permanent agreement with assigned penalties for breaches. It is what it is.

On an unrelated note I’ve heard the $20,000 purchase price a few places now, was this just a hypothetical number or is there a basis? It’d be hilarious, given that there was about that much from the fundraiser which IMVU got in the purchase – that means he’d have given away FA for free in exchange for a steady job, which would pay off over time and not be subject to splitting with any devs. However, that is so silly, I suspect that figure came from someone mixing up the fundraising amount with the purchase price.
 

FYIAD

Member
IMVU is a for profit business. The only way you could influence them to do anything is by hitting them where it hurts: their wallet.

I think we've established that lawsuits won't work.

I think we've established that filing DMCAs is their current policy, and it isn't nearly adequate.

So as far as I can see, the only options anyone would have to attempt to actually change IMVUs policy and hurt their wallet would be boycott and direct action.

But I doubt anyone here would actually do that or even take the idea seriously *shrug*

It isn’t cynicism in this case, its realism. We can avoid joining IMVU and clicking on 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] party ads, but few people on FA are their customers. We cannot give less than nothing, so there isn’t really much we can do is refuse assimilation and hope that dampens their bottom line.

We lack leverage, it is as simple as that.
 

Featherwing15

New Member
I just wish Dragoneer had the balls to actually make a new journal entry and explain everything that's been going on in depth, including why he wasn't being transparent about the business deal two bloody months ago. Was there some kind of non-disclosure agreement he was forced to sign at gunpoint, forcing him not to tell anyone until it was too late? There is no reason for him NOT to tell the members on FA what's going on. Nothing is inhibiting him from doing so.

Blame the NDA, dear, that's the main reason 'neer is a clam.
 

Emil

Roll Fizzlebeef
We lack leverage, it is as simple as that.

Basically, you do the same thing people do when they protest anything else. You would need to be as disruptive as possible to "business as usual" Basically, engage in civil disobedience.

A few suggestions:

1) Everyone turn on adblock
2) Collect like minded users together to start making submissions on FA and even IMVU denouncing IMVUs policies concerning DMCAs and stolen artwork. Get them to keep submitting in a way that wouldn't be considered "spam" so shouldn't really be removed under the rules.
3) Have said users bombard FA and IMVUs emails with messages expressing disapproval for their policies. Keep doing it.
4) Hell, you could even go into IMVU and engage in digital "sit ins"

Problem is, you need a large amount of people willing to lend support and actually give a real damn for this to work. But this is ultimately just about furry porn, so nobody probably takes this matter seriously.
 
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Blitza

Member
annnnddd did we all wish Happy Birthday our Leader Neer like the tonns of Brainless furs on his main page ?

Back to Topic:

I would buy FA back but first it costs sure alot more then Neer got for it since IMVU is hard on Money sucking and then i would Need an complete trustw worthy Team and honist thats hard to find....

So the best would be if Neer van broken would make the Deal reverse and get some competent People in FA´s Team
 
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Blitza

Member
Can I get a citation on that? Seriously. Has he confirmed the sale price anywhere?


If that would be true, how would IMVU come up with that Money when they pretty broken before whas ?

I wonder who really would pay 20.000 for FA when they have 0 Profit, maybe People who are pretty sick XD
 

FYIAD

Member
If that would be true, how would IMVU come up with that Money when they pretty broken before whas ?

I wonder who really would pay 20.000 for FA when they have 0 Profit, maybe People who are pretty sick XD


Actually, a fair number of people. While I cannot afford that by myself, I'd merrily work with other investors to better that offer.

As has been discussed elsewhere, Dragoneer turned down an offer of $50,000 prior to finalizing the IMVU deal; one more reason to doubt the $20,000 figure. Either way, I'm still hoping something can be worked out, but I'm not sure who I need to be talking to. I'm bound to be a minority investor, but I'm keen to work with people to get this fixed.
 

Silvershock

New Member
Actually, a fair number of people. While I cannot afford that by myself, I'd merrily work with other investors to better that offer.

As has been discussed elsewhere, Dragoneer turned down an offer of $50,000 prior to finalizing the IMVU deal; one more reason to doubt the $20,000 figure. Either way, I'm still hoping something can be worked out, but I'm not sure who I need to be talking to. I'm bound to be a minority investor, but I'm keen to work with people to get this fixed.

*Wave*

We'd likely have a sizeable minimum investment if we were to bring the offer up again, to prevent the problem noted elsewhere of 200+ people all trying to run FA as one unit, but we haven't given up hope. That's why I wanted to know where the $20k comes from, because it seems like utter insanity to me that Neer would have turned down a much larger community offer to sell to IMVU for so much less.

Oh, and while I'm here...

if they do censor ANYTHING i WILL bomb IMVU's offices.


No you fucking won't. Now stop being the kind of ludicrous Internet Warrior who gives the other side reason to dismiss an entire viewpoint as "woe is me, I was threatened on the Twitters."
 
I wonder who really would pay 20.000 for FA when they have 0 Profit, maybe People who are pretty sick XD

Well there was a group of furries that offered Neer 50K for FA only he would maintain 46% of the vote. and they would be able to over rule him if they felt it was not in the communities best interests. Neer turned them down and sold us to IMVU instead. At least the other offer for 50K Would have kept FA in the community.
 

FYIAD

Member
*Wave*

We'd likely have a sizeable minimum investment if we were to bring the offer up again, to prevent the problem noted elsewhere of 200+ people all trying to run FA as one unit, but we haven't given up hope. That's why I wanted to know where the $20k comes from, because it seems like utter insanity to me that Neer would have turned down a much larger community offer to sell to IMVU for so much less.

Oh, and while I'm here...




No you fucking won't. Now stop being the kind of ludicrous Internet Warrior who gives the other side reason to dismiss an entire viewpoint as "woe is me, I was threatened on the Twitters."

Wonderful timing!

However, I can explain a scenario why Dragoneer would take that offer over your own: by selling for a lower price, but with a contractual agreement to act as Head of FA (or whatever title he got) he gets very steady job. In a year's time, he'd likely make up the difference between your offer and IMVU's unsubstantiated offer of $20k. It would effectively be like turning FA's sell into a personal annuity, possibly with the bonus of health insurance, life insurance, and all that good stuff. Obviously, this is just a hypothetical, but given the benefits that would accumulate, I can imagine a plausible scenario where this is the case.
 

FYIAD

Member
Right, I remember now. That makes way more sense to me. Thanks.

Hell, that's right! :p So many $20ks floating around that they're all starting to look alike!

Still, though, that's rather ironic when IMVU got about that same about from the fundraising drive. I take that to mean that IMVU gave FA it's money back? Though I haven't a clue how much of that fundraiser money was left when 'Neer handed it over to IMVU; I just think it silly they got that money as a sort of rebate on their purchase.
 

krystalfox77

Offcial Krystal
Yup, definitely time to curl up in a dark corner and weep till this blows over and Dragoneer actually gets the cojones to explain this in a journal.
 

Blitza

Member
Guys sorry to interupt your talk about IMVU and Neer but i have one question, maybe 2 to be honist.

1.) What will you do now since talk brings nothing much so what have you planned for the Future ?

2.) I wonder really why so much Furrys are still sticking to Neer after that totally wacky Thing with IMVU, do you believe this will Change anyhow that Neer gets FA back ?

For me i spend Years and Money like others supporting Artists on FA and it whas really like home, but i dont want Support an Company like IMVU.

Alone that on the site the Copyright when i see i could throw up my Food ..............
 

Verin Asper

The Smart Idiot
that last part in the new Fender journal is just what we expected as an answer from an CEO :V
IMVU's CEO said:
Stolen content is bad for everybody in the community, from the author that sees their hard work being exploited to the community that misses the opportunity to connect with the author, explore their other works and even make a new friendship. IMVU wants to ensure that people only share content they have the rights to share. If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice.


nothing like saying that everything is gonna stay the same, FA you can just report the image while IMVU... "still go the legal route of taking down things"

I only shall see more IMVU accounts getting perma banned and more IMVU users getting angry about getting perma banned and eventually Parents wondering why IMVU that suppose to be family friendly is hooking up with a site that is known for its porn...
 
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FYIAD

Member
Guys sorry to interupt your talk about IMVU and Neer but i have one question, maybe 2 to be honist.

1.) What will you do now since talk brings nothing much so what have you planned for the Future ?

I haven’t any plans right now beyond reaching out and maintaining vigilance. I’m happy to help where I can and chime in if I think I have any useful thoughts, but shy of that, I’m playing this as a waiting game at the moment. What more can I do?


2.) I wonder really why so much Furrys are still sticking to Neer after that totally wacky Thing with IMVU, do you believe this will Change anyhow that Neer gets FA back ?

For me i spend Years and Money like others supporting Artists on FA and it whas really like home, but i dont want Support an Company like IMVU.

Alone that on the site the Copyright when i see i could throw up my Food ..............

When I say “buy FA back,” I do not mean that I intend to buy it back and give it to Dragoneer. I mean to say that I am hopeful that FA can once more be brought to fandom control. Preferably with power divided sufficiently to prevent sudden moves like the abrupt sale to IMVU out of the realm of possibility. Even if I’m just acting as a cheerleader for such a development rather than being party to it, it is my hope and my goal.

I see no point in running away from FA at this point, but I do believe in hedging your bets and branching out to the other main hubs of furry activity: Weasyl, InkBunny, and SoFurry. I do not believe IMVU is going to turn around and start monetizing FA overnight, but I am not hopeful that things will be go well whenever the honeymoon ends. >.o
 

RCRuskin

New Member
Guys sorry to interupt your talk about IMVU and Neer but i have one question, maybe 2 to be honist.

1.) What will you do now since talk brings nothing much so what have you planned for the Future ?

2.) I wonder really why so much Furrys are still sticking to Neer after that totally wacky Thing with IMVU, do you believe this will Change anyhow that Neer gets FA back ?

For me i spend Years and Money like others supporting Artists on FA and it whas really like home, but i dont want Support an Company like IMVU.

Alone that on the site the Copyright when i see i could throw up my Food ..............

Well, for me: 1. Moving to SoFurry.

2. I wonder the same. I'm not sticking with him, certainly since there's been one issue unresolved since he 'took over' the site; still waiting for his response.
 

Verin Asper

The Smart Idiot
Well, for me: 1. Moving to SoFurry.

2. I wonder the same. I'm not sticking with him, certainly since there's been one issue unresolved since he 'took over' the site; still waiting for his response.
understand that SoFurry Enforces a tagging system, also I would advise exploring the site before hand (not today, the site having problems). If anything "avoid the forums, its full of fuckers. Avoid the chatroom, for its also full of fuckers."
 

Tchelline

Member
lets not forget what Tchellin has stated, this is just the tip of the iceberg, when the parents of the 12-14 year olds discover that IMVU just bought a Porn site. It is considered a porn site lets not fool ourselves, and believe that just because we have some clean art we are not all porn. The simple truth is Paypal one of the largest money brokers on the net Lists Furaffinity as a porn site and bans all Accounts that are caught buy and selling items from Furaffinity. this means that if Paypal lists us as a porn site we are considered a Porn. It does not matter the G rated art is created and sold there, the sites demographic is indeed XXX. this stands for everything IMVU is not and after Varsha Posted a link to FA in a G rated site basically full of children and some adults it put a ugly stain on this whole deal even more. the parents are going to be pissed and if they find out they are going to ban their kids from using IMVU which will then cause IMVU to have to take some very drastic measures.



Case in point this Quote from Moonrivers who was a IMVU user that is also an adult that was in the room during the announcement. She had no idea what she was getting into when she logged in to see what site IMVU had purchased and was instantly bombarded with Adult content. I am sure you all know she was less then happy to see this, not to mention have Varsha announce this in a GA rated part of IMVU. This one event could trigger a back lash like no tomorrow. Nothing is resolved at this point. Because they may have to legally start implementing tougher restrictions on the site because of that one event.

What Varsh did was totally uncalled for and it brought to light what they were really buying into. It may force IMVUs hands to become tied and they will have to put stricter rules on FA or maybe even Paywalls to quell the Rage that is going to back lash from this rather careless move.

And we have no guarantee that they will keep to their words of "leaving FA operate independently". Because, ya know, since when big corporations have told the truth?
 
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