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FA/IMVU Discussion

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Verin Asper

The Smart Idiot
I want to help do my part in cleaning up the art theft on IMVU. I have always regularly checked new furs to see if I recognized a character and reported to the owner if I did. Now I am going to try and put some extra effort into wall hangings, hopefully with some help identifying artists.

And, if anyone is willing to give IMVU a try, I am more than willing to help people learn the ropes. There are furry heads that will give you muzzles (I don't know why IMVU doesn't include those in their ads, oh how I wish I could be in charge of what outfits are shown in ads, believe me lol). There are also digigrade legs for those who like to look a little more animalistic.

Furry avatars on IMVU may look a little different than those on SL but they aren't bad.

They arent bad, just gotta make do with the program can do which is good on IMVU standard.

Thanks for helping on dealing with this issue. Hopefully the outcome from this make IMVU realize there is a problem in the catty that needs to be fixed.
 

Volkodav

Dad****er
Yes, the 100x80 icons are not very easy to go by.
Which is why I started this:
http://imgur.com/a/uzY2r

These are screencaps of the products in the client with the PID number written on the image so that the appropriate people have what they need to DMCA.

It takes longer to do than just screenshotting the whole page, but it gives a better idea of what it is, plus not all products have icons.

Image #28828885 original by EchoesLight:
http://echoeslight.com/CSS/images/anthro/a9.jpg

Image #28828574 original by Falvie:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10999220/

Image #28823668 repost by SpazzyKoneko:
https://e621.net/post/show/99237/anthro-beach-big_breasts-big_thighs-bikini_bottom-

Image #28728805 original by Yuurikin:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12879939/

Image #28728792 original by UnicornBlue:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10148222/

Image #28714744 repost by Arlon3:
https://e621.net/post/show/130638/anthro-arlon3-bed-canine-collar-couple-cuddling-cu
(User is no longer on FA)

The rest I'm having difficulty finding but will continue trying.
 

CaptainCool

Lady of the lake
What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T

Edit: It can be a good thing for new artists since it is easier to get exposure on a smaller site, but for artists that are already very popular and firmly established on FA this is a terrible idea.
 
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What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T

Edit: It can be a good thing for new artists since it is easier to get exposure on a smaller site, but for artists that are already very popular and firmly established on FA this is a terrible idea.

But if they all went to weasyl...they'd have as many active users as the ones who left...then the ones who follow their favorite artists will make Weasyl as active as FA. It's just a matter of taking a leap, new things and new lands are scary, but the long term will be great for everyone. Can't be too scared to play in the pool, ya dig?
 

RCRuskin

New Member
What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...

What gets me is people going to the new site when there are already furry-fan controlled alternate websites out there, such as SoFurry. Weasyl was created, iirc, as an alternative to DeviantArt and is for more than just furry art.
 

CaptainCool

Lady of the lake
But if they all went to weasyl...they'd have as many active users as the ones who left...then the ones who follow their favorite artists will make Weasyl as active as FA. It's just a matter of taking a leap, new things and new lands are scary, but the long term will be great for everyone. Can't be too scared to play in the pool, ya dig?

But most people won't leave. Remember last time when Zaush joined the FA coders? People announced that they would all leave the site and yet the community is still just as big as it was before. No one is gonna leave, Weasyl won't grow significantly.
 

FYIAD

Member
The issue that I've found with the IMVU catalog is that sometimes you can't view the full image, so you have to try and guess based on a 100x100 icon. Maybe the image would show up underneath the description if I enabled IMVU on NoScript but I just don't feel it's worth the risk of doing so.
Images like this:
http://i.imgur.com/UxA4bYt.png
Were found by going onto e621 and searching "lesbian giraffe" and going through the numerous pages until I found the correct one. On pages where there were no direct links to the original image, I had to go and find the artist on FA and go through their gallery.

http://i.imgur.com/hGDlMSC.png
"ringtail cat + female + nude"

http://i.imgur.com/eAueduA.png
"bluejay + female"

I can't imagine there's an easier way to do this, which is why we need more people actively working on it. It's a lot of work, yes, but I don't think there's any other way to do it -- image comparison programs probably wouldn't be able to pick up an image that small.

Well, it’s been a while since I’ve looked at Bernal’s stuff, and you won’t find it on e621 since he is strictly DNP, but I get the feeling that’s who the second is from. It’s hard to see style in such a tiny frame but I remember him having a desktop background with character similar to that and the feather style looks right to me..but the beak doesn’t. It could be Alivia (www.furaffinity.net/user/Alivia), but I don’t see it in her gallery.

You’ve also got to get deeper into your search terms if you get too many hits; the more detailed you are, the more likely you are to miss, but I try to increase my exactness until I get a single page of hits. So, for that blue jay I’d run: avian, female, solo to start. (Avian > blue_jay because you’re going to get people who might tag it as bluebird or something else.) Obviously, though, that nets a whole lot, so I’d kick up the detail by trying: leather, lingerie, or boots (I think?). The similar character designs I found on e621 is how I figured it may be Alivia.

(Correction! Artist is Onta, Character is Orange04; tags include: avian, bird, blue_jay, hybrid, clothed, clothing, and solo among others that would be less useful. ^.^ Yayha e621, right?)

As for the ringtail, I kick off with ringtail, female, solo. This led me to a character that looked about right, I should have trimmed out ringtail and went with stockings instead. Information: Artist, Eelytak; Character, tee.

<.<; Who knew all my hours learning the most common search terms on e621 would come in handy some day? :p It’s all about picking things generic and working your way up the most likely tags until you have a manageable amount of hits; it isn’t going to catch everything that is on e621, but the efficiency gain is worth the drop is 100% accuracy relative to what’s on e621.

I'm wondering if it would be feasible to do it programmatically. Basic image comparison to the point of reasonable recognition is fairly easy these days, but you'd have to have a base of images to be searching against, so it'd have to be a per-artist tool that they ran themselves.

No, I really doubt that. >.o It’d be nice if it were possible, but since all someone would have to do is trim, crop, tilt, discolor, or resize and the search would likely fail. I mean, you could try running it through Google’s imagine search, but that’s going to be a pain in the ass. If it weren’t for the fact that the content is hidden behind a paywall, the easiest way would be do a targeted image search: <Insert Image> site:IMVU.com, and let her rip. However, since Google hasn’t indexed those areas, I just don’t see any viable way to carry this out.
 

FYIAD

Member
not to mention many IMVU users pointed out you can convert it back...

Granted, it appears my methods were more work than alternatives, but I’ve never been to IMVU and I spotted it immediately. <.< Seriously, I’m kind of entertained that people over look it because I’m fairly certain I’m not a villain who simply hasn’t’ found his calling yet.

A theory i thought up is that IMVU is working on a new project/game only about furs. like it will be built from the ground up to so that users can make thier fursona down to the last detail, with muzzles that actually look good and stuff.

If not for the fact I suspect wagering may be an offense here, I’ll just say that I’d put down $50 on 5:1 Against that being the case.


Quick Note on the Economic Situation of Artists Relating to IMVU

I do not believe artists are losing money in the vast majority of cases here. It is that artists stand to lose money as their intellectual property is being wrongly sold without license or compensation. For artists to actually lose money, the artist would have to be properly selling their content on IMVU and another user comes along and offers a bootlegged version at a discount. It’s kind of a nitpicky point, but most the losses aren’t realized by the artist.

Copyright is kind of tricky when it comes to figuring out losses; not everyone who pirated a copy of Eiffel 65’s album way back in the days of Napster was a person who would otherwise have bought the album. The moral concern here is that IMVU is profiting by allowing stolen content to flourish and its purveyors thrive. Their business seems to be about, in part, facilitating infringement and profiting from IP theft. In short, there isn’t anyone out there that could rightly claim that what IMVU users are doing is really “fair use” or anything that probably be given that the artist is being deprived of the right to profit from their work. To be honest, the whole thing is a headache for a bunch of different reasons; but the short point I meant to make is that art being put on IMVU isn’t really acting as a disincentive for artists to take commissions. That isn’t anything anyone needs to worry about at this time; the bulk of the issue is that people are profiting from the theft of IP rights, which just doesn’t weigh on commission incentives in any way that I can determine.

For that matter, there is very little reason for artists to leave FA over this reason. Art on Weasyl and elsewhere will be stolen just as easily as it can be from FA; it is about not allying oneself with a company that seems to be wrongly profiting from other peoples’ hard work. Given the benefits of staying with FA, I do not believe you’ll see a mass exodus – at least, you won’t see one that involves burning bridges with FA. Instead, they’re more likely to branch out to cover their bases.

The problem right now that Weasyl and InkBunny face is that they’re stuck in that awkward position of waiting for a group to take the first big, permanent step. It’s akin to when carmakers didn’t want to invest too much into hydrogen fuel cell vehicles because there wasn’t an infrastructure in place to service that need; and the gas stations didn’t want to invest in building out that infrastructure because carmakers weren’t making fuel cell vehicles. It really does not matter so much which group carries out the exodus first so long as ties were broken with FA. It’s a symbiotic relationship, really. The greatest concern of users is being where the greatest amount of talent is, and the talent is going to where they’re going to make the most money or gain the most recognition. Tempt one group and the other will follow soon after.

Anyway, just my long winded thoughts on the matter.
 

FYIAD

Member
But most people won't leave. Remember last time when Zaush joined the FA coders? People announced that they would all leave the site and yet the community is still just as big as it was before. No one is gonna leave, Weasyl won't grow significantly.

Actually, two points of objection on this.

First, the Zaush thing was of a completely different calibre than the IMVU acquisition, and it is certainly a much larger deal if when nasty changes come down the line. Not to get into that whole mess, but it just wasn’t a relevant matter to most users. People might be upset, but leaving a site because an employee may have done something heinous? Hell, if that were the case there wouldn’t be any business of significant size over a long period. Even if allegations were true, I still figure people deserve a chance to redeem themselves. Then again, I admit I didn’t follow it closely and my memory isn’t the best, so if I’m missing something that made it more relevant then I apologize for that.

Second, I suppose the really depends on how you define significant, but I think a double digit growth is a big deal. Only time will tell, but if in three months Weasyl’s active user base is up 5%, that isn’t nothing; it’s a fine start, and I’m hoping they’ll do even better than that. The big lesson here is that we shouldn’t have all our eggs in one basket if we aren’t the ones in control of said basket; diversification does the fandom good.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T

By that measure, nobody should ever leave FA or DeviantArt, because they are where the largest userbase exists.

This is the mentality that Dragoneer and IMVU are banking on.

No, the problem with Weasyl is a chicken-and-egg problem. Without artists, there are no users, and without users, there are no artists. It takes a situation like this to drive adoption, although the safer course of action is to simply expand and drop FA gradually. Currently, FA offers pretty much the worst viewing experience for art anyway, since anything over 1280x1280 is resized and JPEGified pretty hard. There are obviously workarounds, but that's more work for the artist for a pretty lousy return in legibility. Every other site offers a full view of the original piece. An artist might say "Hit up my (weasyl/IB/whatever)" gallery for a bigger version" and allow for a trickle of traffic to pour over to their Weasyl before jumping ship.

But most people won't leave. Remember last time when Zaush joined the FA coders? People announced that they would all leave the site and yet the community is still just as big as it was before. No one is gonna leave, Weasyl won't grow significantly.

Oh.



(One (already established on Weasyl) artist's watch log over the last day or so)
 
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lets not forget what Tchellin has stated, this is just the tip of the iceberg, when the parents of the 12-14 year olds discover that IMVU just bought a Porn site. It is considered a porn site lets not fool ourselves, and believe that just because we have some clean art we are not all porn. The simple truth is Paypal one of the largest money brokers on the net Lists Furaffinity as a porn site and bans all Accounts that are caught buy and selling items from Furaffinity. this means that if Paypal lists us as a porn site we are considered a Porn. It does not matter the G rated art is created and sold there, the sites demographic is indeed XXX. this stands for everything IMVU is not and after Varsha Posted a link to FA in a G rated site basically full of children and some adults it put a ugly stain on this whole deal even more. the parents are going to be pissed and if they find out they are going to ban their kids from using IMVU which will then cause IMVU to have to take some very drastic measures.



Case in point this Quote from Moonrivers who was a IMVU user that is also an adult that was in the room during the announcement. She had no idea what she was getting into when she logged in to see what site IMVU had purchased and was instantly bombarded with Adult content. I am sure you all know she was less then happy to see this, not to mention have Varsha announce this in a GA rated part of IMVU. This one event could trigger a back lash like no tomorrow. Nothing is resolved at this point. Because they may have to legally start implementing tougher restrictions on the site because of that one event.

What Varsh did was totally uncalled for and it brought to light what they were really buying into. It may force IMVUs hands to become tied and they will have to put stricter rules on FA or maybe even Paywalls to quell the Rage that is going to back lash from this rather careless move.

That PayPal statement is a rumor proven false. They have publicly said that they don't consider is a porn site and don't ban people for buying and selling FA art unless it is porn. The cases where people were banned we're things like someone putting gay porn as the message as a joke and they took it seriously. Or actually selling porn.
 

Gryphoneer

20 Quatloos on "disruptive"
What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T

Edit: It can be a good thing for new artists since it is easier to get exposure on a smaller site, but for artists that are already very popular and firmly established on FA this is a terrible idea.

I wonder if people brought forward similar arguments back when SheezyArt purged adult art.
 

Croconaw

#1 Most Requested Croconaw
What I am worried about right now is artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making rash decisions and just going to Weasyl...
Weasyl has no where near as many active users as FA. And now they are risking their income because they are pissed off about how the site is being handled :T

Edit: It can be a good thing for new artists since it is easier to get exposure on a smaller site, but for artists that are already very popular and firmly established on FA this is a terrible idea.

Those who rely on ONE source for their income deserve the burn tbh. Even in the art world outside of FA, it's all about networking and stretching yourself out to multiple resources.


The mantra shouldn't be "Leave FA for Weasyl". What it should be is a call to arms for artists to /expand/ their signal to other websites while keeping their tabs on FA until it becomes too unbearable for them. Is it really going to hurt yo have your art on DA/Wysp/Weasyl? Not really. The pain is getting everything ported over, but that's all the responsibility that comes with wanting to make money off of your art.


So while I feel for these artists being burned on FA who solely rely on FA, I can't feel too much for them if they refuse to utilize multiple resources.



Tl;dr- Don't put your eggs in one basket.
 

rjbartrop

Active Member
By that measure, nobody should ever leave FA or DeviantArt, because they are where the largest userbase exists.

This is the mentality that Dragoneer and IMVU are banking on.

No, the problem with Weasyl is a chicken-and-egg problem. Without artists, there are no users, and without users, there are no artists. It takes a situation like this to drive adoption, although the safer course of action is to simply expand and drop FA gradually. Currently, FA offers pretty much the worst viewing experience for art anyway, since anything over 1280x1280 is resized and JPEGified pretty hard. There are obviously workarounds, but that's more work for the artist for a pretty lousy return in legibility. Every other site offers a full view of the original piece. An artist might say "Hit up my (weasyl/IB/whatever)" gallery for a bigger version" and allow for a trickle of traffic to pour over to their Weasyl before jumping ship.

Already on Weasyl too, and I think it's something you should do whatever your feelings about FA. Depending on just one site for business is bad planning. I also think if you are going to make the move, it's a whole lot less stressful to do it over time, and try to build up your presence. It probably took a while to build up your audience on FA, so it shouldn't be a surprise that you're going to have to do the same on another site. Weasyl also has a lot of very good artists who aren't on FA, so it's worth having an account to follow them.

This is about redundancy. I like Weasyl, and I hope it continues to grow and prosper, but depending on it as you sole source of income is just as bad an idea as depending on FA.

dA does have size and stability going for it, but it also shows that size isn't everything. It is very easy to get lost in the crowd there, and to a certain extent the same is true of FA. If you go to any site with the expectation that you just have to put up a page, and a flood of orders will result, prepare to be disappointed. Networking may be a hoary old business buzzword, but it does work, and you don't need an art site to do it.

Anyone remember FurryMUCK? It's coming up on the quarter century mark, and has maybe a hundred people on it at any one time. Half the fandom doesn't know what it is, and the other half thinks it's dead, and that nobody goes there. Yet half my commissions are from these "nobodies", just from talking with them, and because they know me. Social sites like Second Life, and yes, maybe even IMVU, might be worth checking out as a way of cultivating these contacts.

The important point here is, you have options.
 
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sethtriggs

New Member
If some of that disaffected development talent would pull together and make a bulk uploader for the other sites (like Weasyl), that would definitely help artists feel more comfortable with moving over, especially if they have a lot of art to port. Remember, a lot of the reasons people will watch another artist is due to getting to see lots of things in their gallery. Making this process less time-consuming would be great. I know SoFurry, for example, has a bulk uploader and that was kinda useful for me till it turned out that the domain got blocked on some of my connections.

As it is, I've gotten into the habit of crossposting, as it is not wise to put all eggs in one basket. I'd certainly like to maintain two baskets.

And I guess looking at my stats on Weasyl, with my 4K pageviews there I'm actually in the top echelon! Still haven't gained a commission from that site, but I'm apparently doing better than a lot of prominent artists there. At the very least though I think a lot of the people there could be doing a lot better with the aid of a bulk uploader.
 

Croconaw

#1 Most Requested Croconaw
That's a shitty thing to say, man.

it's called being real. Deal wIth it.

It's a principle of how anything network-associated works with a third-party medium.
 
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Volkodav

Dad****er
it's called being real. Deal wIth it.

It's a principle of how anything network-associated works with a third-party medium.
So because they don't feel like doing what you've expected or suggested them to do, they "deserve to burn" for it?
I would understand if you were to say "it's not a smart idea to only advertise your art on one website" but to go so far as to say "deserve to burn"...
C'mon :/
That's just malicious.
 

Tchelline

Member
By that measure, nobody should ever leave FA or DeviantArt, because they are where the largest userbase exists.

This is the mentality that Dragoneer and IMVU are banking on.

No, the problem with Weasyl is a chicken-and-egg problem. Without artists, there are no users, and without users, there are no artists. It takes a situation like this to drive adoption, although the safer course of action is to simply expand and drop FA gradually. Currently, FA offers pretty much the worst viewing experience for art anyway, since anything over 1280x1280 is resized and JPEGified pretty hard. There are obviously workarounds, but that's more work for the artist for a pretty lousy return in legibility. Every other site offers a full view of the original piece. An artist might say "Hit up my (weasyl/IB/whatever)" gallery for a bigger version" and allow for a trickle of traffic to pour over to their Weasyl before jumping ship.



Oh.



(One (already established on Weasyl) artist's watch log over the last day or so)

Those are awesome news to see. And yeah, Dragoneer pretty much relies in the fact that furries are not going to leave for te sole reason of numbers.

UNFORTUNATELY I compared Weasyl's numbers in Alexa before and after the Imvu scam, and their averwge users per day only grew from 1.6 thousand to 1.8.

but I guess progress is progress even if little. With all this anger I have forgotten to say that Runefox got one of the sexiest icons I have seen in years.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
UNFORTUNATELY I compared Weasyl's numbers in Alexa before and after the Imvu scam, and their averwge users per day only grew from 1.6 thousand to 1.8.
200 users is nothing to sneeze at as an average users par day count, especially if the previous number was 1600; A 12.5% increase. That's not even taking into consideration that Alexa tracking is only an estimation. By their own numbers, though, 11.6% of traffic is referred to Weasyl via FA.

But all that aside, it isn't specifically Weasyl that people should go to. The idea is to reduce the grip that FurAffinity has on the community, and spreading out to Weasyl, Inkbunny, SoFurry, etc are all viable alternatives, and really, for maximum exposure and padding against the ass falling out of FurAffinity, it should be more than one of them. Really, the way it needs to happen is for the popular artists to go first, and the userbase will follow. If an artist feels like Weasyl, Inkbunny, or SoFurry just don't have the users to abandon ship right away, they should at least begin posting there on a regular basis to grow their support base. Even beyond FurAffinity's woes, more exposure is always better, so I really don't see any excuse besides that it takes longer to update multiple sites. A working crossposter would definitely be a great help there, and with several in development, I think a couple months worth of doing it by hand is worth the exposure now that eyes are turning outward.

but I guess progress is progress even if little. With all this anger I have forgotten to say that Runefox got one of the sexiest icons I have seen in years.
Hah, I don't know about that, but thanks. It's the product of a few years of off and on work. Really it only took probably a couple weeks of steady work, but it's had a few revisions.
 
But most people won't leave. Remember last time when Zaush joined the FA coders? People announced that they would all leave the site and yet the community is still just as big as it was before. No one is gonna leave, Weasyl won't grow significantly.

While this is true, but the situation with Zaush at the heart of it didn't have enough proof to bank on. People can think all they want, but if you're asking people to leave, you need proof. This situation is different, we have it. People are fed up, and are looking at the best thing to do here, so we need to jump on it.

Croconaw said:
it's called being real. Deal wIth it.

It's a principle of how anything network-associated works with a third-party medium.

Incorrect in that people should be burned for it, you need to drop that attitude right now. But on everything else you are correct, it isn't smart nor safe to put all your art in one place. The same situation could happen to any site, anywhere. I mean we even see that influx of journals go up when FA announces down time right?

But the thing is not every fur / artist here really understands the importance. Yes there are some *cough* idiots */cough* here, but some people aren't convinced there is a problem, or that there could ever be one. Some people don't want to take the time to move, some people don't understand the idea of safe business, etc. This community needs people to look out for each other in that regard, help show them and teach them the importance and dangers of conducting themselves on this and other sites.

That kind of attitude right there, maybe you think it is justified but that is what keeps people away from our side of things. They see oh look how rude these people are, they must be wrong. It's that easy to shut down an argument based on how it is presented. This is why I feel people like Rowe were banned, it's scarier to present a clear-headed argument because people listen to it better as opposed to just whining or screaming or name calling.

Croconaw said:
The mantra shouldn't be "Leave FA for Weasyl". What it should be is a call to arms for artists to /expand/ their signal to other websites while keeping their tabs on FA until it becomes too unbearable for them. Is it really going to hurt yo have your art on DA/Wysp/Weasyl? Not really. The pain is getting everything ported over, but that's all the responsibility that comes with wanting to make money off of your art.

However you're entirely true here. This is why tools like the cross poster need to be advertised. I'm not sure the best way to tackle this one head on, I think the best thing is to offer the choice and an unbiased look at each site. Give people the choice to move and what site winds up becoming the general go-to can be sorted out later.

The important thing is that people need to understand the power they have. If people leave FA en masse then it will set a precedent that you actually need to maintain your sites, treat your users with respect. By staying on FA there is no reason at all for them to improve. This is why we've had 10 years of almost no progress, because there isn't any need for it. At the end of the day, there are too many white-knights, brown-nosers, supporters, etc. These people are holding back progress.

If anyone wants things to change, we need to get out, make a stand. This could even be great for FA, if there was some serious desperate need to bring people back, it'll happen. If it doesn't well, he has had plenty of time to fix that.
 
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Blitza

Member
and more Artists leaving from FA now ..... @Neer shouldnt you get up and try at last an bit damage recovery or are you too busy with getting art ^^:::
 
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