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FA/IMVU Discussion

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RTDragon

RTP User
And that said has quite a bit of valid points.
 

PheagleAdler

Well-Known Member
Really wish you did'nt post the link since the last thing we need is a certain someone inciting harrassment.

I know you're talking about me, RT.
 

Victor-933

Professional Retard

Fawk

I don't like people
So, if someone kills someone else and you call him a killer, are you being an extremist for simply naming the subject after the verb he has commited?

That is not even remotely comparable.
The letter is full of opinion and speculation.
 
The problem, actually lies in IMVU's previous actions. It's target audience is younger teens, and they host a more adult section for adults.

When parents found out about this, there was an uproar. IMVU was then forced to create a very strict verification system which includes:

Picture ID.
Social Security #
Cash payment ($20)

Compare that to FA's verification policy? An honor system that merely asks a person not to lie about their birthday?... And we have far more explicit adult content then IMVU will ever allow.
When parents find out about FA, well, they say history repeats itself.

Social Security #? First of all that is an invasion of privacy and a call to identity theft...
Second, Does that mean a Canadian, German or aussie can't join the site because only the us has such numbers? Or is it just americans dumb enough to fall for such schemes? Not even SL asks for a SS# What is next? What is your blood type?
 

Fawk

I don't like people
Social Security #? First of all that is an invasion of privacy and a call to identity theft...
Second, Does that mean a Canadian, German or aussie can't join the site because only the us has such numbers? Or is it just americans dumb enough to fall for such schemes? Not even SL asks for a SS# What is next? What is your blood type?

You have to put your SSN on job applications too, why aren't you up in arms over that?

Also, there are ways for non-US citizens to get age verified, I do not know them but I know it's an option.
 

Tchelline

Member
That is not even remotely comparable.
The letter is full of opinion and speculation.

Nope. By applying what we know of bussiness, it is easy to predict that Imvu plans to do nothing but squeeze money from us.

Now, I can say "if you touch that pile of burning wood chunks you might get hurt" and you can say "That is your opinion and it's just a speculation because you just don't know what will happen with that PARTICULAR fire over there" and I will say "yeah but I have knowledge that fire burns" and you will say "nooo nooo noooo you are just speculating".
 

PheagleAdler

Well-Known Member
Nope. By applying what we know of bussiness, it is easy to predict that Imvu plans to do nothing but squeeze money from us.

Now, I can say "if you touch that pile of burning wood chunks you might get hurt" and you can say "That is your opinion and it's just a speculation because you just don't know what will happen with that PARTICULAR fire over there" and I will say "yeah but I have knowledge that fire burns" and you will say "nooo nooo noooo you are just speculating".

That's not a good comparison, you pretty much know that fire burns. That's an undisputed fact.

Now, what IMVU does is pure speculation. You can guess given their history and other factors, but you cannot say you know what they're going to do!
 

chesse20

Member
You have to put your SSN on job applications too, why aren't you up in arms over that?

Also, there are ways for non-US citizens to get age verified, I do not know them but I know it's an option.
because I don't have to pay 20 dollars to sign a job application.
That's not a good comparison, you pretty much know that fire burns. That's an undisputed fact.


Now, what IMVU does is pure speculation. You can guess given their history and other factors, but you cannot say you know what they're going to do!
Um actually yeah you can, IMVU is a major corporation, and corporations exist to make the most amount of money by any means nesccary. Whatever they are going to do they are going to do it ruthlessly and they will ban, block, and sue whoever gets in their way of reaching into our pockets and taking as much as they can
 
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Fawk

I don't like people
because I don't have to pay 20 dollars to sign a job application.

Um actually yeah you can, IMVU is a major corporation, and corporations exist to make the most amount of money by any means nesccary. Whatever they are going to do they are going to do it ruthlessly and they will ban, block, and sue whoever gets in their way of reaching into our pockets and taking as much as they can

But that is not the point, the point was "omg its unsafe!" but it's not. How is me proving my identity to IMVU any different than me proving my identity to any other company? It is also still a choice you make whether or not you want to do it. If you think it is a risk, don't do it.

Also, that is still assumptions and speculation. You do not work for IMVU, you do not own IMVU, so you do not know how IMVU will handle things. I have used IMVU for a long time and have not seen them act the way you claim they do.

Yes, they are for profit. But that does not make them some heartless machine that will just steamrolls people to squeeze money out of them.
 

Gryphoneer

20 Quatloos on "disruptive"
this thread was practically dead
I hate to frustrate your hopes, I really do, but as long as the tragedy, the drama that's Piche selling out the community isn't resolved this thread still got mileage.

let's revive it with some schmo's letter!

This "schmo," as you call him, has 6000+ watchers. Regardless, the fact that Piche himself has gone into damage control mode in the comments demonstrates how wrong you are. This isn't a small blip on the radar, the truths expressed through that letter resonate with a big chunk, if not the majority of the community, and he better face these valid criticisms if he wants to be a serious representative of IMVU.

Which he only did after the letter sent to him was made public...
 

rjbartrop

Active Member
If you post screenshots of games, expect to have these kinds of problems. These submissions are a lot less original than a commission you got, or something you drew on your own.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Modding games does require you to actually make texture maps, and sculpt models. If effort and creativity are your criteria, then there are adoptables that have less business being on FA.
 

Tchelline

Member
That's not a good comparison, you pretty much know that fire burns. That's an undisputed fact.

Now, what IMVU does is pure speculation. You can guess given their history and other factors, but you cannot say you know what they're going to do!

And the purpose of any company is to make money, that's an undisputed fact.

But that is not the point, the point was "omg its unsafe!" but it's not. How is me proving my identity to IMVU any different than me proving my identity to any other company? It is also still a choice you make whether or not you want to do it. If you think it is a risk, don't do it.

Also, that is still assumptions and speculation. You do not work for IMVU, you do not own IMVU, so you do not know how IMVU will handle things. I have used IMVU for a long time and have not seen them act the way you claim they do.

Yes, they are for profit. But that does not make them some heartless machine that will just steamrolls people to squeeze money out of them.

And here we have another "fire skeptical". We all know that fire burns, but since we haven't tried that pile of burning leaves over there, then we might just be speculating!
 

Roshiyu

New Member
But that is not the point, the point was "omg its unsafe!" but it's not. How is me proving my identity to IMVU any different than me proving my identity to any other company? It is also still a choice you make whether or not you want to do it. If you think it is a risk, don't do it.

Also, that is still assumptions and speculation. You do not work for IMVU, you do not own IMVU, so you do not know how IMVU will handle things. I have used IMVU for a long time and have not seen them act the way you claim they do.

Yes, they are for profit. But that does not make them some heartless machine that will just steamrolls people to squeeze money out of them.

In Canada, we also have Social insurance #s. But we don't give them out flippantly.

The only reason employers need them is to help the government keep track of how much you earn, how much taxes you have to pay, unemployment insurance, ect. Plus, within the standard employer/employee contract there are clauses that protect your SS#. If your employer gives that out to someone who shouldn't have access to it, they are held liable.

IMVU, however... I bet they have no such clauses for your protection. I'm even betting the only legal protections you sign on to are to let them get away with anything, with no liability. Someone hacks their database and steals all their listed SS#'s? Whoops. Perhaps their selling SS#'s and other information to third parties? It's only business, and out of their hands afterwards.

That is, of course, general speculation until I read the terms of the agreement. But since this isn't an employer/employee contract, well, their bottom line is making money. Not your 'protections'.
 

FYIAD

Member
Damn. I took a week off and came back hoping this was some really elaborate April Fool’s gag.

I do beg your pardon for not scrolling back to directly quote, but I’d like to point out that this isn’t a merger. It is an acquisition, though you could call it a takeover if you wish. It wasn’t hostile, Dragoneer didn’t wake up to find a majority of FA’s shares were gobbled up overnight in some sly power play. It was willingly sold. Calling this a merger is a half-step better than calling this a partnership, but you’re still polishing the unpolishable.

“How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling the tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.”

Guessing five is better than the people claiming the number was six at the start, but it still isn’t so. FA was sold; FA was bought; no one was forced, and Dragoneer is almost certainly not an equal to IMVU’s senior staff.

Now then, to the other points I see brought up:
Social Security Numbers: This is unlikely to ever happen for a few reasons. Foremost of which is that plenty of people do not want their legal identity tied to their online identity or fandom pseudonym; one must also contend with the fact that SSN’s are not a global identifier, which limits its usefulness; and, naturally, there are folks who would simply rather not give meaningful data to IMVU due to lack of trust.

Debating over IMVU’s intentions really is speculation. I do not know, nor can I prove that IMVU did not do this out of the goodness of their hearts. I find the odds staggeringly against this possibility, but what I believe and what I know are two different things. That said, I believe it profoundly unlikely that IMVU does not intend to turn a profit on this acquisition. I don’t know how or over what period of time; all that I can do at this point is wait to see how things pan out.

I must have missed the post where Dragoneer said this would only be for the better, but I find that an entertaining prospect. You know what all Americans agree on? They want a better tomorrow with better leaders, better schools, better roads, better tax rates; they want a better military, better neighbors, and a better car, too, while we’re at it. Better is real easy to sell to people because better is generic goodness. Get into the details of “better” and you’ll see consensus vanish instantaneously.

Last but not least, a note on privacy. Fawk, even if you trust IMVU not to do anything nefarious with your personal information, you still have to contend with the fact that sharing such details can only increase your risk. I still get the feeling that due diligence wasn’t done on this deal, and if a company cannot be bothered to do what is financially prudent for its own good then I can probably assume their security isn’t exactly top notch. Obviously whether or not you deem the tradeoff of disclosure worthwhile is a personal decision, but IMVU (and Sony, and Facebook, and Google..) cannot leak information that they do not have. Just a thought, anyway.
 

Tchelline

Member
Debating over IMVU’s intentions really is speculation. I do not know, nor can I prove that IMVU did not do this out of the goodness of their hearts. I find the odds staggeringly against this possibility, but what I believe and what I know are two different things. That said, I believe it profoundly unlikely that IMVU does not intend to turn a profit on this acquisition. I don’t know how or over what period of time; all that I can do at this point is wait to see how things pan out.

Great, another gravity denier.
 

rjbartrop

Active Member
Much has been made about how IMVU wants to make money of FA. This part of it, at least, I don't have a problem with. I want to make money off FA too, and I'm certainly not the only artist here who does. Heck, sometimes it seems like half of FA is trying to sell stuff to the other. It's a little late to be worried if FA will be corrupted by the pursuit of filthy lucre.

That there are people who are willing to put up sites like this just for the love of it is fantastic, and they seldom get the credit they deserve, but the problem is that people fall out of love. Any art site is a large drain of time and money, and most people, despite their best intentions, eventually they just can't keep it up. The income of the people running FA now depends on keeping it going, just like so may artists on it, and this part at least is a very good thing, IMHO.
Of course, this will all depend on how they decide they can make money from this.
 

FYIAD

Member
Great, another gravity denier.


With all that I've said over the last couple weeks, that's it?

I'm saying I don't know their motives and I don't know their plans. I still don't see how they expect to recoup the investment, and there are enough unknowns in this situation that kicking back and saying, "Obviously, the greedy wanks are going to do so-and-so and such-and-such" is lazy.

Can you say, as a fact, they intend to put up a pay wall?
Can you say, as a fact, that they're going to go PG on us all?
Can you say, as a fact, they're going to demand SSN's?

All I'm saying is you've got to have a clear understanding of what you know, what you think you know/believe, and what you know you're missing.
I know FA got bought; I know Dragoneer sold it willingly; I know IMVU is for-profit; and I know, statistically, the odds of a for-profit doing the fandom a five figure favor just to net a good case of the warm and fuzzies is pretty damn slim.
I believe IMVU isn't to be trusted; I believe IMVU intends to recoup its investment; and I believe Dragoneer sold us down the river.
I haven't a clue how IMVU intends to make its money back; I haven't a clue to the reasoning behind Dragoneer's decision to abruptly sell off FA; I haven't a clue what IMVU paid for FA, what amount they may be willing to accept to give up rights to FA, how they plan to deal with the fallout if/when parents react to furry porn, or any of a dozen other things.

I'm going to neglect the whole unknown/unknown category for obvious reasons.

You want to discuss a topic; you want to plan a way forward? Then you take stock of what is solid and go from there.

Or, to be simpler still, I can see gravity's effect but this whole situation is about as transparent as a brick wall. The problem with playing probabilities is that with each step out you're compounding the odds of being wrong; and if you, by some unlikely chance, get Dragoneer to respond to something, it helps if it isn't something long and complicated that can be shot down with a vague line which reveals nothing. (Okay, right, we wouldn't really trust Dragoneer to be honest and open about anything, but my reasoning stands up; or, at least, I believe it does.)

That's all I'm saying. It seems reasonable to me and I'm bewildered if you perceive that as equal to me scurrying around in a panic and sewing my pockets shut just so I can be ready if/when gravity suddenly reverses itself.
 

FYIAD

Member
Actually, I do kind of take issue with FA making money. Not that I want FA to run a deficit, mind you, but I’d prefer a situation wherein the community supported FA; not for profit or popularity, but just because it’s a good thing to do. I know, that’s my naïve optimism showing, but the fact that even ‘Neer with all previous drama was able to raise ~$20,000 in a fundraising drive should indicate that the community is willing to support itself if given the chance. If a Wikipedia/Wikimedia-style fundraiser proved insufficient, then I could see experimenting with out means of becoming community sufficient.

Beyond that, I think the concern is less about profit and more about motives. IMVU is not of our tribe, they are not community members and their business model seems, at least to me, to be shady. As I’ve gone on at length previously, their business model is one that has a lot more incentive to allow piracy and abuse than it does to actively weed out theft. Yes, people are being banned now, but the ill-gotten gains are still in IMVU’s bank account sitting right beside the $20,000 raised to support FA. In short, most people feel that IMVU doesn’t give half a damn about the fandom or FA’s community; and the seeking of profit at the expense of the fandom or the community is a matter of concern to folks who have been here for the better part of a decade.

And short of really milking FA for a bunch of tax deductions for years to come, I don’t see how IMVU expects to recoup their investment, much less make any substantial profit. What we’re being told doesn’t really seem to mesh what the reality of the situation, and that is a huge driver of mistrust. Little has been done to address that, so it is going to fester on.
 

Fawk

I don't like people
Last but not least, a note on privacy. Fawk, even if you trust IMVU not to do anything nefarious with your personal information, you still have to contend with the fact that sharing such details can only increase your risk. I still get the feeling that due diligence wasn’t done on this deal, and if a company cannot be bothered to do what is financially prudent for its own good then I can probably assume their security isn’t exactly top notch. Obviously whether or not you deem the tradeoff of disclosure worthwhile is a personal decision, but IMVU (and Sony, and Facebook, and Google..) cannot leak information that they do not have. Just a thought, anyway.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand the concern for privacy and a risk.
But IMVU would be held liable if they sold you SSN just like any other company.
I believe you can verify your age without giving a SSN by using something like a drivers license (still personal information, but when verifying your identity, there is no avoiding personal information) but I am not entirely sure. It has been ~4 years since I got verified. So I could be wrong, I know they have changed some things with age verification since I did it.
I am pretty sure your verification information isn't kept on record, IMVU would have no reason to store such information.

There is always a risk with any kind of information being given. Even when it is given privately. I could tell a friend a secret, there is still a risk of said friend telling someone else. In this situation, there is the chance that an IMVU employee might want to steal, use, sell, etc your information. It is not very likely though.

And as you said, it is up to an individual to decide if they feel something is worth it.
 

rjbartrop

Active Member
It's a nice idea, but in practice, most furry sites depend on someone with deep pockets, and a large capacity for abuse, and most eventually reach a point where they can't or just won't do it anymore. FA is currently my third "main" site. One shut down with a month's notice, and the other went down for months, then read only mode for a year before everyone finally gave up on it. I found out about another site's closure for someone else's blog after the fact, and this does begon to cover the other furry sites that have shut down or fallen by the wayside over the year. I applaud your enthusiasm, and by all means, feel free to prove me wrong, but I have heard this tune before.

One way or another, the furry community is still going to be dependent on the whims of whoever actually owns the hardware that's hosting it.
 
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