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FA/IMVU Discussion

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Tchelline

Member
LOL thank you, haven't been called KID in years heh
I love how you say, OUR Glory.

Yes Dragoneer is reaping the rewards of the users who have been here now and in the past.
Users don't pay for anything tho, donators do however. Artists have used this free site to gain popularity
and fame, as well as a career for many. Why would someone pay YOU or any Artist to post your stuff
on the site?

That is what Paysites are for, this was a gallery for you to share stuff with and make connections. People
turned it into a career site, at no point was the site focused on commissions.

Dragoneer has benefited the most from this it seems and that sucks, but that is life.
People will always be selfish and liars taking advantage of another's work for their own gain.
That does suck, but it's not like we own anything here or paid for it unless like i said you're a donator fur.

I think I'm not saying it correctly, so forgive if I'm not making much sense.

Brief and concise explanation about why Imvu lies:

According to Imvu and Dragoneer, Imvu is going to stay "hands-off" the site and thus they are not going to install premium accounts or other measures. They say, their benefit from this acquisition (and the month to month costs it implies) will come from two sources: Ad revenue and new users getting into Imvu.

Lets arrange this as the following:

A= ad revenue
B= site's maintenance costs
C= Dragoneer's wage as new employee
D= the cost of the coders Imvu claims will bring
E= the cost of the site's acquisition
F= profit for th company

For what we know with solid information from the past experiences, the ad revenue was not enough to cover the site's maintenance costs, thus we have:

A<B

According to Imvu, the very same money that was not enough to cover costs, now is going to be able to cover them and cover all the other costs:

"A= B+C+D+E+F"

BUT, since A<B, then the correct statement is:

A=/= B+C+D+E+F

They second claimed source of income, as they claim, will be an expectd influx of furries starting to get curious about Imvu's chat and thus get into it and start spending money in the virtual goodies it offers. This second source of income, however, it's pretty unlikely to happen since the perception that the majority of the furry community has of Imvu is negative due to the following reasons:

1) Lack of transparency in FA's acquisition
2) A lot consider that SL is better and cheaper (and technically it is better and cheaper)
3) Many furries already hate Imvu because of them allowing art theft and having long and complicated mechanisms to remove stolen art (being forced to have an AP to check stolen art and having to fill a DMCA and possibly hiring a lawyer to do that).

Considering 1, 2 and 3, one can easily notice that the influx of prople from FA to Imvu's chat will be minimum.

Will this new value "X" be enough to turn the inequation into an equation such that A+X= B+C+D+E+F?

Given 1, 2 and 3, again, this is quite unlikely to happen. Thus Imvu will have to find other ways to obtain income from FA... said new measures however, will inevitably damage the community's acuisitive power, and both users and artists will feel the blow when Imvu starts installing measures to squeeze money from us.

As previously demonstrated, what they claim will be their only benefits is not enough to cover costs and generate profit, thus, they are either lying or they are just willing to play charity.
 

Fawk

I don't like people
You are ignoring that the new ad revenue is going to be more than just user submitted ads.
 

Charrio

Artistic Mouse
Brief and concise explanation about why Imvu lies:

According to Imvu and Dragoneer, Imvu is going to stay "hands-off" the site and thus they are not going to install premium accounts or other measures. They say, their benefit from this acquisition (and the month to month costs it implies) will come from two sources: Ad revenue and new users getting into Imvu.

Lets arrange this as the following:

A= ad revenue
B= site's maintenance costs
C= Dragoneer's wage as new employee
D= the cost of the coders Imvu claims will bring
E= the cost of the site's acquisition
F= profit for th company

For what we know with solid information from the past experiences, the ad revenue was not enough to cover the site's maintenance costs, thus we have:

A<B

According to Imvu, the very same money that was not enough to cover costs, now is going to be able to cover them and cover all the other costs:

"A= B+C+D+E+F"

BUT, since A<B, then the correct statement is:

A=/= B+C+D+E+F

They second claimed source of income, as they claim, will be an expectd influx of furries starting to get curious about Imvu's chat and thus get into it and start spending money in the virtual goodies it offers. This second source of income, however, it's pretty unlikely to happen since the perception that the majority of the furry community has of Imvu is negative due to the following reasons:

1) Lack of transparency in FA's acquisition
2) A lot consider that SL is better and cheaper (and technically it is better and cheaper)
3) Many furries already hate Imvu because of them allowing art theft and having long and complicated mechanisms to remove stolen art (being forced to have an AP to check stolen art and having to fill a DMCA and possibly hiring a lawyer to do that).

Considering 1, 2 and 3, one can easily notice that the influx of prople from FA to Imvu's chat will be minimum.

Will this new value "X" be enough to turn the inequation into an equation such that A+X= B+C+D+E+F?

Given 1, 2 and 3, again, this is quite unlikely to happen. Thus Imvu will have to find other ways to obtain income from FA... said new measures however, will inevitably damage the community's acuisitive power, and both users and artists will feel the blow when Imvu starts installing measures to squeeze money from us.

As previously demonstrated, what they claim will be their only benefits is not enough to cover costs and generate profit, thus, they are either lying or they are just willing to play charity.

Really good argument, kinda can't think past it lol.
Well done and you're probably right, kinda depressing
 

RTDragon

RTP User
You are ignoring that the new ad revenue is going to be more than just user submitted ads.

But let's remember there have been complaints about the ads in the past especially artist ads not going through. And most people use adblock these days due to malicious adware and spyware as well.
 

Fawk

I don't like people
But let's remember there have been complaints about the ads in the past especially artist ads not going through. And most people use adblock these days due to malicious adware and spyware as well.
Yeah, but there will still be an increase in revenue from ads, people have to admit this. The 3rd party ads will make more money for the site than the user submitted ones.
 

Charrio

Artistic Mouse
Yeah, but there will still be an increase in revenue from ads, people have to admit this. The 3rd party ads will make more money for the site than the user submitted ones.

I just hope it's not something like those annoying car ads that start playing video right off with sound on.
Or PopUps *shudders*
 

krystalfox77

Offcial Krystal
Joke's on them, this is why I and so many others install ad-blocking add-ons and even the ones that circumvent anti-adblocking measures, ha !
 

FYIAD

Member
The only thing we can do as artists is, expand our other galleries and be more active on other sites, visiting the forums and being vocal.
Say hi to artists you know from FA and reconnect, slowly rebuilding the connections we have here. It sucks but it's something i think a lot
of us were stalling on.

As to FA, we can only wait and watch hoping for the best.
But we don't have to stay when changes come that are drastic and community killing.
Such as a Credit Card needed to have a full account or such.

I Have NO Faith in Dragoneer.
I have watched him for years, and things have gone up and down.
Some of his decisions are purely self interests and biased, the whole It's his site HIS law attitude which he
has every right to, but makes him seem self important and douchey.

So until I know if this site will die like MySpace did and we migrate to a new one, I'll be here as normal but also
filling out my other galleries. Will have to stop adding FA in my watermark, Maybe Weasyl, InkBunny, SoFurry, DeviantArt or something.
You know it's bad when InkBunny is on the list of possible alternatives lol



Well, there is a snag in the reasoning when folks say that “We the artists,” I’m not an artist. I do not draw, I do not write; I make no music, and while I don’t know of a furry subset in the culinary scene, if there is one, I’m not a part of that, either. So any set of actions predicated on one being a creator of content does not apply to me; I am left, by my eye, largely without recourse. I can speak, I can encourage – if I’m lucky, I might even ramble off something inspiring, but that seems to be the extent of it.

As for Dragoneer, I have trouble seeing how he is relevant as this acquisition. If he speaks, I expect it to be IMVU’s words; if he acts, it will be to IMVU’s desires. The greeter at your local Wal-Mart doesn’t really care how you’re doing, and the bank teller isn’t giving you money as a personal favor; if they speak, it is the script set out for them, and if they act, it is in a business capacity, not a personal or particularly meaningful one. If Dragoneer genuinely does have free reign to act as he sees fit in all instances other than those in which IMVU decrees, they I suppose that is something – but I don’t expect it to be much, and I’d expect that power to dwindle over time. It’s why I said before, the era of Dragoneer’s FA has come to an end.


That is where you are wrong. This site might legally belong to X entity, but what makes this site worth at all are the artists. If artists leave, this site has less value than a soda bottle. We are the ones who built the site, we qthe qrtists. Dragoneer believe he has any relevance in the site, but he was just a legal figure. We must teach him that the ones who made FA are we, and let him rot with his asinine plans next to Imvu.



Okay, let us say that you are right: what does it mean for me, a non-artist? Again, I can speak my mind and try to be useful however I can; but I am not a trendsetter or a content producer. My writing in this thread is pretty much the sum of my content relating to the fandom over the last decade and a half or so.

The only reason I speak here at all is because it’s an exceedingly rare circumstance where my participation may have the slightest benefit; and even that may be egotistical on my end.
 

FYIAD

Member
Brief and concise explanation about why Imvu lies:

According to Imvu and Dragoneer, Imvu is going to stay "hands-off" the site and thus they are not going to install premium accounts or other measures. They say, their benefit from this acquisition (and the month to month costs it implies) will come from two sources: Ad revenue and new users getting into Imvu.

Lets arrange this as the following:

A= ad revenue
B= site's maintenance costs
C= Dragoneer's wage as new employee
D= the cost of the coders Imvu claims will bring
E= the cost of the site's acquisition
F= profit for th company

For what we know with solid information from the past experiences, the ad revenue was not enough to cover the site's maintenance costs, thus we have:

A<B

According to Imvu, the very same money that was not enough to cover costs, now is going to be able to cover them and cover all the other costs:

"A= B+C+D+E+F"

BUT, since A<B, then the correct statement is:

A=/= B+C+D+E+F

They second claimed source of income, as they claim, will be an expectd influx of furries starting to get curious about Imvu's chat and thus get into it and start spending money in the virtual goodies it offers. This second source of income, however, it's pretty unlikely to happen since the perception that the majority of the furry community has of Imvu is negative due to the following reasons:

1) Lack of transparency in FA's acquisition
2) A lot consider that SL is better and cheaper (and technically it is better and cheaper)
3) Many furries already hate Imvu because of them allowing art theft and having long and complicated mechanisms to remove stolen art (being forced to have an AP to check stolen art and having to fill a DMCA and possibly hiring a lawyer to do that).

Considering 1, 2 and 3, one can easily notice that the influx of prople from FA to Imvu's chat will be minimum.

Will this new value "X" be enough to turn the inequation into an equation such that A+X= B+C+D+E+F?

Given 1, 2 and 3, again, this is quite unlikely to happen. Thus Imvu will have to find other ways to obtain income from FA... said new measures however, will inevitably damage the community's acuisitive power, and both users and artists will feel the blow when Imvu starts installing measures to squeeze money from us.

As previously demonstrated, what they claim will be their only benefits is not enough to cover costs and generate profit, thus, they are either lying or they are just willing to play charity.



Yes and no; I’m with you on the end result, I cannot see a way wherein IMVU is going to make a great profit off FA, but let me tweak your variables a bit.

A = Ad Revenue – This is fine, except that we’re opening to third party ads so we cannot assume A of IMVU’s era to be the same as A of Dragoneer’s era. Say we call them Ai and Ad, respectively; only the latter is really relevant, but it should be a save assumption that Ai > Ad

B = Site Maintenance – This is fine, except that one must question: do we even know what FA has cost to run in previous years? I mean, if all we have is Dragoneer’s say so and if most people find Dragoneer to be, at best, an unreliable source of information, then one has to figure that B is iffy.

C = Dragoneer’s Wages & Benefits – This is fine, except not knowing what it amounts to; it can safely be assumed that C > $1. :p Not super informative, but virtually guaranteed.

D = Coders’ Costs – This is fine, except for the fact it is possible that IMVU is using salaried employees to do the work, which means this would not be a monetary expense; it would come with the usual opportunity cost, but that’s it. I could make a plausible case that, monetarily speaking, D=$0.

E = Cost of Acquisition – This is fine, though see notes below.

F = Profit – This is Fine


Now, as I’ve tried to explain elsewhere, I could make the case that E is $0, or at least less than the offer of $50,000 from community members. Reliable wages and benefits would overtake the acquisition cost before all that long, so long as Dragoneer had a guaranteed wage. This manner of deal would allow Dragoneer to profit personally, without holding to his implied commitment to share the profits with developers. (This is implied in Dragoneer’s response to the $50,000 community offer.)

So, to do this properly, you would do well to put this at a set time span: T.

Add N for New User value, and

You also should factor in Dragoneer’s valuation of having any control over FA, which would have been lessened (though still, by my eye and relatively, would be much stronger) by the community offer. Call this variable P.

Last but not least, let’s put the Community Offer of $50,000 down as O.

Actually, one more: Total Cost to IMVU, call it Z



For Dragoneer:
O < C + E
O+P < C+E+P, obviously.

We cannot say with any certainty what relation exists between C and E, nor speculate intelligently on the value of P.

For IMVU:

Ai > Ad
Ai + N > B + C(T) + D + E
P = (Ai + N) – (B+C[T]+D+E); or, more simply, (Ai+N)-Z.

And that, so far as I can tell, leads to WTF, because you cannot have that many undefined variables and draw any meaningful conclusion. :p I can only draw vague relations from what we have, and to do that I have to assume that Dragoneer and IMVU are rational actors and nothing shady was in play, which is the sort of assumption I hate to make.


Admittedly, though, I’m not the best with this sort of thing; there may be way to tease our additional relations and details, but I still don’t think there is enough solid information to really pin anything down, even though I do have profound doubts that any profits IMVU nets from ads and new users is going to offset Dragoneer’s wages plus the cost of acquisition, regardless of whether or not coders actually cost IMVU anything, especially once you factor in FA maintenance. I’m just rubbish at proving the reasons for my skepticism given the hard facts I have handy. >.o
 

FYIAD

Member
Yeah, but there will still be an increase in revenue from ads, people have to admit this. The 3rd party ads will make more money for the site than the user submitted ones.

I don't think too many people discount that opening FA to third party ads will increase revenue; I think the snag is that no one things that the additional revenue is going to make IMVU's acquisition profitable, even after accounting for new members that come to IMVU as a result of the acquisition. (Can't speak for others, but I certainly do not feel compelled to join IMVU as a result; though I suppose it is statistically more likely, given that I'd never even heard of IMVU before this mess..)
 

rjbartrop

Active Member
Presumably whatever Dragoneer is getting is enough to live on. Just out of curiosity, i tried to find out how much an Amazon web jockey earned, and I came across the figure of $55,000 on average at this site http://www.simplyhired.com/salaries-k-amazon-web-services-jobs.html

Now if someone who actually does web services at Amazon wants to provide some corrections, please do, but if this is somewhere in the ballpark of what Dragoneer was making at Amazon, then presumably he's getting something similar at IMVU to make it worth giving up.
 

FYIAD

Member
Presumably whatever Dragoneer is getting is enough to live on. Just out of curiosity, i tried to find out how much an Amazon web jockey earned, and I came across the figure of $55,000 on average at this site http://www.simplyhired.com/salaries-k-amazon-web-services-jobs.html

Now if someone who actually does web services at Amazon wants to provide some corrections, please do, but if this is somewhere in the ballpark of what Dragoneer was making at Amazon, then presumably he's getting something similar at IMVU to make it worth giving up.
Did he do web services? For some reason I was under the impression that he worked in the warehouse; and while I cannot say offhand what the warehouse folk get, I’d wager it winds up closer to the $35,000 range than the $55,000. From the few people I know that have worked at Amazon, I’ve heard the conditions have been subpar for a while, at least in the warehouse and related positions; micromanagement in the name of extreme efficiency, work conditions that aren’t so great, and such take a toll.

You’ve also got to figure that the flexibility in a job has some value; it isn’t just the wage that gets people to sign on. I’d much rather take a 15-20% pay cut to have hours of my own choosing or to avoid commuting. Again, I’m just speculating, but as far as I can tell, Dragoneer isn’t really going to the office; every instance I’ve seen of him dealing with his bosses involves a phone, not a face-to-face meeting.

Honestly, I cannot discern what his job actually is at the moment. I can look up his title easily enough, I just don’t really grasp the duties he is to perform. Now, there are two general schools of thought about people who you cannot discern what they do:
You’ve got the God of Futurama: “When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.”
Then you have the Office Space HR specialists who are prone to firing folks who can’t aptly describe what their job actually is; otherwise known as people who assume that no obvious evidence of work means that no work is actually being done.

That said, and with absolutely no evidence to back up my feelings, I see it as more likely that Dragoneer sold FA for what amounts to an annuity with a side of continuing fandom fame and control than I see it as he sold it for a lump sum and got a job. The job is the payment, and any lump sum is a bonus.

Try rationalizing boning the developers you, just a month or two prior, said you were turning down the $50,000 for with the outcome as we see it, where they have none. If you took the pot of gold and ran off into the night, that’d look rather underhanded; but if you turned over control to people who could run it better, and just happened to secure a reliable job with decent wages and benefits, well, no one could fault you for that, right?

Consider it the economic experiment of asking someone if they’d rather have $5 today or $15 three months from now; only in this iteration, it has the added benefit of soothing what may be a troubled conscience.

Or I could be absolutely wrong on every count. I’m curious about the whole affair and the rationale behind the parties; however, I see a whole lot of plausible ways that aren’t altruistic and few that have either party coming out smelling like roses. The question is, who got played and how badly? (Other than everyone who donated time and money to building up FA; it’s pretty clear they got thoroughly shafted.)
 

Charrio

Artistic Mouse
Did he do web services? For some reason I was under the impression that he worked in the warehouse; and while I cannot say offhand what the warehouse folk get, I’d wager it winds up closer to the $35,000 range than the $55,000. From the few people I know that have worked at Amazon, I’ve heard the conditions have been subpar for a while, at least in the warehouse and related positions; micromanagement in the name of extreme efficiency, work conditions that aren’t so great, and such take a toll.

You’ve also got to figure that the flexibility in a job has some value; it isn’t just the wage that gets people to sign on. I’d much rather take a 15-20% pay cut to have hours of my own choosing or to avoid commuting. Again, I’m just speculating, but as far as I can tell, Dragoneer isn’t really going to the office; every instance I’ve seen of him dealing with his bosses involves a phone, not a face-to-face meeting.

Honestly, I cannot discern what his job actually is at the moment. I can look up his title easily enough, I just don’t really grasp the duties he is to perform. Now, there are two general schools of thought about people who you cannot discern what they do:
You’ve got the God of Futurama: “When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.”
Then you have the Office Space HR specialists who are prone to firing folks who can’t aptly describe what their job actually is; otherwise known as people who assume that no obvious evidence of work means that no work is actually being done.

That said, and with absolutely no evidence to back up my feelings, I see it as more likely that Dragoneer sold FA for what amounts to an annuity with a side of continuing fandom fame and control than I see it as he sold it for a lump sum and got a job. The job is the payment, and any lump sum is a bonus.

Try rationalizing boning the developers you, just a month or two prior, said you were turning down the $50,000 for with the outcome as we see it, where they have none. If you took the pot of gold and ran off into the night, that’d look rather underhanded; but if you turned over control to people who could run it better, and just happened to secure a reliable job with decent wages and benefits, well, no one could fault you for that, right?

Consider it the economic experiment of asking someone if they’d rather have $5 today or $15 three months from now; only in this iteration, it has the added benefit of soothing what may be a troubled conscience.

Or I could be absolutely wrong on every count. I’m curious about the whole affair and the rationale behind the parties; however, I see a whole lot of plausible ways that aren’t altruistic and few that have either party coming out smelling like roses. The question is, who got played and how badly? (Other than everyone who donated time and money to building up FA; it’s pretty clear they got thoroughly shafted.)

God you guys make such good sense, it's frightening really.
It's also sad knowing the fandom is so easily purchased.
 

Blitza

Member
yaaayyy for IMVU, when you look at the child or whatever i get sick...

x6AdIY1.jpg


How will the Furry Fandom Change ?? In something similar like that ? i hope not
 

PheagleAdler

Well-Known Member
God you guys make such good sense, it's frightening really.
It's also sad knowing the fandom is so easily purchased.

The fandom is not just a single website.
 

krystalfox77

Offcial Krystal
Wow, those avatars from IMVU look like subhuman mongoloids. That's frightening...and Dragoneer sold FA out to such asininity? Sad.
 

Illuminaughty

Ring-a-ding-ding, pal.
With all due respect, Dragoneer, I speak as a long time user and creator on IMVU. All I have to say?

You are an idiot.

IMVU has nothing but a LONG history of exploiting and taking advantage of the creators who built them. They have an even longer history of not listening to the community whatsoever, and completely pissing on the people who work hard to make them what they are.

I have no respect for you or your choices here. All I have to say is good luck.

-Edit- For the record, I always use this colour and this size font. I am not hiding anything nor am I afraid to say what I have to say. In case that wasn't clear..

With all due respect, Dragoneer, I speak as a long time user and creator on IMVU. All I have to say?

You are an idiot.

IMVU has nothing but a LONG history of exploiting and taking advantage of the creators who built them. They have an even longer history of not listening to the community whatsoever, and completely pissing on the people who work hard to make them what they are.

I have no respect for you or your choices here. All I have to say is good luck.
 
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galadreal

New Member
Ok, this may have already been answered. But is there any way to just report a user for stolen artwork on IMVU. Some of these people have galleries full of shit, and it would take a really long time to track down each artist individually.

Edit: Dragoneer just told me that if I recognize any of the artists to tell him so he can get in touch with them. For these....people who have entire galleries made up of several artist...I don't have time for this shit, and it is not my fucking job to monitor them. And clearly he does not give a shit. So. Here is a link to stores of stolen artwork. If anybody else feels like doing shit, have fun. I am so done with this crap:

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=102350454&page=1&cat=107 each image is under a link, you have to have an account to even see the stuff. But there were watermarks by Falvie, Slushie-Nyappy-Paws, and Flaredra and those were just the ones i could easily make ot

http://www.imvu.com/catalog/web_flag_product.php?products_id=11797492 Here is one from Bluefreak...or Lockwork Orange. Or whatever she goes by now. but the person's store has lots of stuff that I recognize but do not know artist from.

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=59099778&page=1 I know I saw a Jay Naylor in this one. There are several others, but I cannot recognize every ones's style.

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=57373066&cat=107-1027-1446&page=1 once again, I don't recognize all the styles, bt there are several of them

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=51410775&cat=107-1027&page=1 Another person who hides a bunch of stolen artwork behind a shittastic icon. So you have to have an account to see what it is with the Try feature.

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=38716080&cat=107-1027-1446&page=1

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=38102161&cat=107&page=1

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=72689274&cat=107&page=1

http://www.imvu.com/shop/web_search.php?manufacturers_id=13808370
 
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TheArchiver

Ace Documenter
With all due respect, Dragoneer, I speak as a long time user and creator on IMVU. All I have to say?

You are an idiot.

IMVU has nothing but a LONG history of exploiting and taking advantage of the creators who built them. They have an even longer history of not listening to the community whatsoever, and completely pissing on the people who work hard to make them what they are.

I have no respect for you or your choices here. All I have to say is good luck.

Speak up next time. That formatting was unnecessary. And while I agree, this adds absolutely nothing. This has been said in every which fashion possible.
 

PheagleAdler

Well-Known Member
With all due respect, Dragoneer, I speak as a long time user and creator on IMVU. All I have to say?

You are an idiot.

IMVU has nothing but a LONG history of exploiting and taking advantage of the creators who built them. They have an even longer history of not listening to the community whatsoever, and completely pissing on the people who work hard to make them what they are.

I have no respect for you or your choices here. All I have to say is good luck.

-Edit- For the record, I always use this colour and this size font. I am not hiding anything nor am I afraid to say what I have to say. In case that wasn't clear..

With all due respect, Dragoneer, I speak as a long time user and creator on IMVU. All I have to say?

You are an idiot.

IMVU has nothing but a LONG history of exploiting and taking advantage of the creators who built them. They have an even longer history of not listening to the community whatsoever, and completely pissing on the people who work hard to make them what they are.

I have no respect for you or your choices here. All I have to say is good luck.

Well, they didn't piss on us...yet. The art theft is/was an ongoing thing, don't feel special because FA's not the only site they've stolen from (of course you already know that)
 

Gryphoneer

20 Quatloos on "disruptive"
Piche stated on the official changelog of the beta he would commit himself to making progress quote "every 2-3 days" end quote. That's 8 full days since April the 5th, what would amount to 2-4 tweaks.

The list of subsequent updates is empty. How do you explain yourself?
 
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