Fighting for our... freedom?

[CrazyLee]

Oh shit, controversial thread incoming?

I've noticed a phrase tossed around a lot to describe the war (formerly warS) that we are involved in currently, or at least the troops that are fighting in this war (and the other war we left). Usually it's when people are trying to say something in support of the troops like during the recent Memorial Day here in the States (which is more of a holiday about BBQing than veterans nowadays).

They say something like "Those troops over there fighting for our freedoms" or "They are defending freedom". And the term "Freedom" gets thrown around in an overly patriotic and nationalistic way.

My question is... how exactly are they fighting for our freedom?

How is it that fighting some desert nomads in some mountain desert region is somehow fighting for freedom? What exactly is it about invading two countries and then doing occupied nation rebuilding that protects our freedoms?

And while we're on this tangent, out of all the military operations we've been involved in since WWII, how many of those were actually "defending" our freedoms? The proxy wars of Korea and Vietnam? The Gulf War? The Bosnian conflict? Libya?

If anything I think the term "Fighting for our freedom" is just a way for people to feel patriotic and have an excuse for the wars we were mired in. Oh the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was justified because it was to defend our freedoms. As if our government itself isn't a greater threat to freedoms with things like NDAA than some people with a pressure cooker and an agenda.

 

[Schwimmwagen]

They're just taking advantage of how fucking stupid some people can be in order to gain support for the war effort. That's all.

It's not uncommon practise, anyway.

ZA STALINAAAAA

 

[PastryOfApathy]

They're not and pretty much everyone outside of the most ignorant of people are well aware of the fact. After 9/11 people got wise to that real quick. It's in the same vein as healthy fast food, it gets thrown around a lot by people who benefit but no one believes them.

 

[Rigby]

i've always thought 2 the Ranting Gryphon or whatever put it best

uh oh, i think i feel a youtube link coming on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cBiOTvxXcY

i disagree with the part about 58 seconds in and 3:19 in but the rest is spot on

 

[Aleu]

Yeah I'm not buying the whole "fighting for our freedom" thing. I don't think we have legitimately fought for something like that since...I dunno, MAYBE WW2 in a way?

 

[Tigercougar]

It's simply another form of propaganda - propaganda that worked immediately after 9/11 but ceased to dupe the populace once the Iraq war commenced.

Think about it what the phrase "they're fighting for our freedoms" subtly implies - that if you are against the wars, you are against freedom. That you should silence any dissenting opinions about them that you may have.

 

[Schwimmwagen]

Yeah I'm not buying the whole "fighting for our freedom" thing. I don't think we have legitimately fought for something like that since...I dunno, MAYBE WW2 in a way?

I don't think that fighting for freedom has been a thing since the war of independence.

 

[Aleu]

I don't think that fighting for freedom has been a thing since the war of independence.

That's pretty much directly.

However Hitler was a pretty big fucking threat. Not only that but when Japan decided "Hey, let's piss off Americans!" even though I don't think we were doing that much at the time, that lit a fire under our asses and bombed them. Then again to make a point.

It's possible that if there was a stronger attack against us, then the war would have come to our turf which is why I said "MAYBE" in big letters because it's a stretch. It was also, I think, the last necessary war. Everything else is pretty much "Okay, WHY are we here again?"

 

[Schwimmwagen]

However Hitler was a pretty big fucking threat. Not only that but when Japan decided "Hey, let's piss off Americans!" even though I don't think we were doing that much at the time, that lit a fire under our asses and bombed them. Then again to make a point.

It's possible that if there was a stronger attack against us, then the war would have come to our turf which is why I said "MAYBE" in big letters because it's a stretch. It was also, I think, the last necessary war. Everything else is pretty much "Okay, WHY are we here again?"

There was the threat of the Axis forces back in that period yes, though entering the war in the pacific and in western europe helped to bring the US out of the great depression as well as improve political and economical ties with other countries.

So yeah, the US found a way to profit from being in war, and has been trying to use that since. However the current "wars" are more costly than beneficial, yeah.

I imagine it's solely political in that case.

 

[Kosdu]

I hear this so often, and it's been bullshit for a long time.

 

[Hinalle K.]

Screw you guys, come fight for OUR freedom some. You're quite free already!
We're still offing people for witchcraft over here :<

 

[Saga]

That's just some bullshit people who support a war throw around when the real reason for the war isnt all that pretty.

If anything, the US last fought for freedom in general in vietnam, and did a pretty crappy job at it, too.

 

[Rilvor]

Of course it looks like a load of garbage to anyone looking at it objectively. If you ask me, there isn't a single superpower country that isn't strong-arming someone else. The table has been set, the big boys are gathered round, and everyone else sits at the Kiddie Korner. Probably now and forever more, and those of us living in Big Boy Countries probably aren't going to care very much.

 

[DrDingo]

Yeah, I have always thought this to myself as well. Perhaps the 'defending' bit is their logic in saying "Hey look, we're killing terrorists!" Of course, I don't think being involved in it is a good idea. If they came there for Osama Bin Laden, he's dead now.

 

[Fallowfox]

I think the phrase 'fighting for our freedom' is preaching to the choire, which is why it is deployed on patriotic events etc.

It is a reassuring set of buzzwords for the people who already consider the military interventions in question to be justified, so it doesn't need to necessarily make sense. [some may point to the boston bombings as a justification for continuing wars in the middleast against the taliban and the ever present terror threat, but the criminals in question were russians acting not in the name of any state but for diffuse radical purposes probably fueled by foreign intervention. Certainly a terrorist attack on american soil by foreign agents might seem to justify a war in a far off land, but the slaughter of school children by a native resident doesn't seem to have brought much action in American itself]

It's like politicians who say 'Believe in America'.

You could probably string together any old sentence and as long as it contained the words 'liberty' 'struggle' and 'faith' a good deal of people would swallow it on emotional grounds.

 

[Seekrit]

You could probably string together any old sentence and as long as it contained the words 'liberty' 'struggle' and 'faith' a good deal of people would swallow it on emotional grounds.

"Have faith as we struggle for our liberty"

 

[BigwiggingAround]

We aren't fighting for our freedom in Afghanistan (although you could say we were in the opening stages when al-Qeada was a direct enemy), and we weren't in Iraq. We've been fighting for the security of Afghanistan because the UNSC and NATO countries are still caught in this idea that it's our duty as free countries to fight police actions for the not-so free. It's also just propaganda to secure support for the wars, because the DoD, regardless of the objective, aren't capable of admitting when an effort isn't worth it.

 

[Fallowfox]

I think the war in afghanistan and the obligation some western states feel towards that region may be related to the history they have had of ****ing that country up in the past.

Although I do not think it is a fight for our personal freedom in the west, I cannot help but feel that driving out the taliban and constructing a more empowered Afghan military and police force to prevent it from returning is a worthwhile effort, and sadly one that seems ever more likely to be abandoned as western countries withdraw their troops.

This is of course laced with the hypocrisy that I would never be willing to fight in one of these countries.

 

[Kosdu]

That's just some bullshit people who support a war throw around when the real reason for the war isnt all that pretty.

If anything, the US last fought for freedom in general in vietnam, and did a pretty crappy job at it, too.

*ahem*

Bullshit.

We fought in Vietnam to support a dictator and fight those wanting freedom. Look it up, the South Vietnam leader was a fucking douchebag who repressed his people, they were even setting themselves on fire on live TV to get the word out. The dude in the North simply wanted a vote to reunite vietnam when the U.S. was *attacked* and decided to invade because communists were bad.

We're such a fucking great democracy.


@Fallowfox

I think the regions might settle down and find more peace if less guns, violence, and troops were directed there and instead more humanitarian aid.

Why are the palestinians mad? White guys just kicked them out of their land and said fuck you.

Why is afghanistan shitty? We gave them weapons and tought them violence then left them to die.

Why does Iraq hate us? I dunno... Where are those "weapons of mass destruction" again? Somewhere with the oil?

Fun.



If only we could erase the while "Israel" thing. It was and is pretty racist and fucked up, and frankly alot of those "terrorists" just want foreigners to stop dicking around in their lands, but they are mixed up with the crazy kinda terrorrist.

Also, listen to this song by Bob Dylan: Blowin' In The Wind. It is extremely relevant and very fucking deep.

I ask you:

How many years must a people exist before they are allowed to be free?
How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn't see?

How many times must a man look up before he can see the sky?
<now me>

How many bullets does it take to heal an injured heart?
How many bodies does it take to build a home?

How many fucking bodies will it take till it all comes to an end?


The answers, my friend, are hidden in the ashes of our good deeds, scarred and twisted by the blood we have spilt.

 

[BigwiggingAround]

Although I do not think it is a fight for our personal freedom in the west, I cannot help but feel that driving out the taliban and constructing a more empowered Afghan military and police force to prevent it from returning is a worthwhile effort, and sadly one that seems ever more likely to be abandoned as western countries withdraw their troops.

Well the Tokyo and Chicago conferences held last year supposedly sealed everyone involved into a plan to have all troops withdrawn by the end of 2014, and each country give monetary and supply support to the Afghans for the foreseeable future on the condition they reduce the amount of corruption in their army. This is probably the best course of action right now, seeing as the only other option is "pull the fuck out".

 

[BigwiggingAround]

I think the regions might settle down and find more peace if less guns, violence, and troops were directed there and instead more humanitarian aid.

I agree with ceasing support for both Israel and Palestine because it isn't our (US, UK, and friends) fight and both sides have committed enough atrocities to be considered "in the wrong". However, just because we aren't sending them guns doesn't mean they won't get them from elsewhere and suddenly feel less violent. China, Pakistan, former Soviet states, and even Russia itself still stamp out AKs for whoever is willing to buy them, including terrorists and asshole countries.

Do you have a better solution to the war in Afghanistan, Kosdu? As of now, the ISAF (fancy acronym for coalition forces) is in a withdrawel and the ANA (afghan army) is gaining strength to defend themselves. I don't see what else there is to do.

I'm convinced certain parts of the world are destined to be fucked up forever, and if they aren't, as soon as they're peaceful the violent people will only have to move to a new region to fuck up.

 

[Fallowfox]

Well the Tokyo and Chicago conferences held last year supposedly sealed everyone involved into a plan to have all troops withdrawn by the end of 2014, and each country give monetary and supply support to the Afghans for the foreseeable future on the condition they reduce the amount of corruption in their army. This is probably the best course of action right now, seeing as the only other option is "pull the fuck out".

The amount of corruption in indigenous forces, like the police, really is deplorable in Afghanistan. :\ I remember listening to an article on BBC radio 4 recently about their widespread use of chai-boys or, more bluntly, child prostitution.

 

[Kosdu]

I agree with ceasing support for both Israel and Palestine because it isn't our (US, UK, and friends) fight and both sides have committed enough atrocities to be considered "in the wrong". However, just because we aren't sending them guns doesn't mean they won't get them from elsewhere and suddenly feel less violent. China, Pakistan, former Soviet states, and even Russia itself still stamp out AKs for whoever is willing to buy them, including terrorists and asshole countries.

Do you have a better solution to the war in Afghanistan, Kosdu? As of now, the ISAF (fancy acronym for coalition forces) is in a withdrawel and the ANA (afghan army) is gaining strength to defend themselves. I don't see what else there is to do.

I'm convinced certain parts of the world are destined to be fucked up forever, and if they aren't, as soon as they're peaceful the violent people will only have to move to a new region to fuck up.

I don't have a solution or pretend to have one. I don't know most of the factors involved, and have no first hand experience in the region or dealing with the region.

I do know that invading a country to fix it doesn't really seem to work when you have more bodybags than gifts to offer.

 

[LogicfromLogic]

This whole 'fighting for our freedom' things is complete and utter bullshit. The government wants us to believe that terrorists are going to destroy the nation. You want to know countries that are actually fighting for their freedom? try those in communist countries and those who are constantly being attacked. what we are doing in Afghanistan and what were were doing in Korea as well as Vietnam, we were not and aren't fighting for freedom; we're throwing our weight around and bullying everyone.

I don't blame the soldiers who are fighting, I am however blaming the idiots in congress that are basically white washing the public into believing that this war is fully justified.

 

[Kosdu]

This whole 'fighting for our freedom' things is complete and utter bullshit. The government wants us to believe that terrorists are going to destroy the nation. You want to know countries that are actually fighting for their freedom? try those in communist countries and those who are constantly being attacked. what we are doing in Afghanistan and what were were doing in Korea as well as Vietnam, we were not and aren't fighting for freedom; we're throwing our weight around and bullying everyone.

I don't blame the soldiers who are fighting, I am however blaming the idiots in congress that are basically white washing the public into believing that this war is fully justified.

I would like to point out now though, I believe who we fought in Vietnam were much more savory figures than now.

But regardless of their characters, this is pretty much true.