French Veil ban

[Kosdu]

Ayattar, you've proven yourself to be islamaphobic in the past, I sincerely doubt you can ever be taken seriously again.

(See female genital mutilation thread, where Ayattar pretty much said "Your fault for letting those Muslims in" when the practice is very common, to the best of my knowledge, in Ethiopia where it is not any way an Islamic country.)

If someone were to truly wear a religious veil in any sort of crime, it'd only help the police to find them because fewer people own such things than other common facial coverings.


Frankly, Europe needs to get a hold on it's islamophobia, as do most nations.
It is my personal belief that the extremism is an unfortunate part of that geographical region and it's local cultures, not in any way part of the religion itself.


Oh yes Ayattar, don't you know you couldn't dress like a jew in Poland at one point?
Those dirty awful jews committed all sorts of crimes, so they started targetting people who seemed Jewish.
See the Nazi party, they judged other people without knowing them aswell.


I love how, and I'm estimating here, more mass deaths have been caused by psychopaths in the US than islamic extremists.

I've been to the Oklahoma City memorial.... People forget that. People forget it all the time.


Don't you guys remember how many innocent islamic people have been brutally murdered by the US in their countries as part of war crimes too?

I can't seem to get out a choherent post... But you guys get my point.

Oh yeah Ayattar, how did you like that shooting in what was it, Norway?
I mean the guy was white and christian so he must have been right, right?

I mean hitler was white and christian too... He insured the public safety of his country by restricting those of other religions.


I'm done with him.

 

[Ozriel]

Now, I never thought I'd say that but I could use a help of our forums' femi-nazis ;o

Sorry broseph, you are on your own. :V

Then I assume you won't be offended, disgusted or surprised if I meet you dressed in my SS uniform without pants and waving my penis?

In America you can do that. Just be prepared to have a lawyer when you get arrested for streaking.

 

[Kosdu]

I feel like I should post explaining the fact that I was playing the devils advocate in my previous post.

Even in my school, which was in a military town, in Oklahoma (people assume alot by that), we were required to learn alot about other cultures in our world history class. We learned about different religions, regions, their history.... And frankly it just shows how ignorant many people are too their starts....

I hope the french goverment actually becomes secular, it would be better for them all.

I've had my rambling random off topic rants for the day >.<

 

[Fallowfox]

That's because other cultures aren't tolerant as well. Some cultures may coexist and some simply can't. Islam that is coming to the France isn't that tolerant, progressive, secular islam we know from Turkey.



Then I assume you won't be offended, disgusted or surprised if I meet you dressed in my SS uniform without pants and waving my penis?

In previous posts I stated symbols recognised as incitements of hatred are an exception- for obvious reasons.

I personally don't feel there is a problem with naked bodies, and recognise that if you were to expose as much skin as today's standards warrant a few decades ago you would have been arrested. Again, that's a different matter.

Muslim veils, if worn voluntarily, are neither incitements of hatred or indecent exposure. Nor are they an efficient means of committing a crime. They're just the wearer's expression of their personal piety- nobody else's business whether they do or do not wear a veil.

 

[Ozriel]

In previous posts I stated symbols recognised as incitements of hatred are an exception- for obvious reasons.

I personally don't feel there is a problem with naked bodies, and recognise that if you were to expose as much skin as today's standards warrant a few decades ago you would have been arrested. Again, that's a different matter.

Muslim veils, if worn voluntarily, are neither incitements of hatred or indecent exposure. Nor are they an efficient means of committing a crime. They're just the wearer's expression of their personal piety- nobody else's business whether they do or do not wear a veil.

And if that was the case, Nuns are not exempt from wearing their head dresses and veils and must not wear them at all.
Yes, Catholic veiled nuns do exist!

 

[Ayattar]

In America you can do that. Just be prepared to have a lawyer when you get arrested for streaking.

Then I can't.

(See female genital mutilation thread, where Ayattar pretty much said "Your fault for letting those Muslims in" when the practice is very common, to the best of my knowledge, in Ethiopia where it is not any way an Islamic country.)

To your information. Female genital mutilation was never a problem in Sweden, not untill they accepted waves of muslim immigrants (rise of the problem corresponds perfectly with immigration tendencies). Those imigrants weren't Ethiopian christians, they were muslims from various African and Asian countries. Or maybe you want me to make an excessive study over this matter and say instead:
"It's because you accepted 29.004 people from Syria, 12.341 from Tunisia, 8.000 from blah blah blah?

Oh yes Ayattar, don't you know you couldn't dress like a jew in Poland at one point?

To your information. There was no such a thing as Poland in that period (1815-1917) It was a Kingdom only from the name as it was a part of Russia (Russian tsar was at the same time a polish king), Poland lost its' indepedence in 1795.

I do love how americans think that they understand the problems Europe is facing right now. You don't have a clue. I stopped messing with US affairs after the first time.

I'm done with him.

Yes, yes, go, embrace shariat. Or maybe listen to Hinalle. You might benefit from it. Or look at the Turkey - secular islamic country, where islam doesn't require women to wear scarves. Problem is, not all muslim immigrants in the Europe were touched by Kemal Ataturk blessing.

 

[Kerocola]

Muslim veils, if worn voluntarily, are neither incitements of hatred or indecent exposure. Nor are they an efficient means of committing a crime. They're just the wearer's expression of their personal piety- nobody else's business whether they do or do not wear a veil.

I think you missed the indisputable point that this is not the "secular Islam from Turkey", so all of these Muslims have zero tolerance and therefore cannot coexist with the French. If Muslims were allowed to wear burqas/niqabs in France, who knows? The French population might be converted into burqa wearing deviants. You would be able to see the horror on my face...but you can't, since it's veiled~

 

[mcjoel]

This thread is not going to end well.

 

[Kosdu]

Then I can't.



To your information. Female genital mutilation was never a problem in Sweden, not untill they accepted waves of muslim immigrants (rise of the problem corresponds perfectly with immigration tendencies). Those imigrants weren't Ethiopian christians, they were muslims from various African and Asian countries. Or maybe you want me to make an excessive study over this matter and say instead:
"It's because you accepted 29.004 people from Syria, 12.341 from Tunisia, 8.000 from blah blah blah?



To your information. There was no such a thing as Poland in that period (1815-1917) It was a Kingdom only from the name as it was a part of Russia (Russian tsar was at the same time a polish king), Poland lost its' indepedence in 1795.

I do love how americans think that they understand the problems Europe is facing right now. You don't have a clue. I stopped messing with US affairs after the first time.



Yes, yes, go, embrace shariat. Or maybe listen to Hinalle. You might benefit from it. Or look at the Turkey - secular islamic country, where islam doesn't require women to wear scarves. Problem is, not all muslim immigrants in the Europe were touched by Kemal Ataturk blessing.

I don't believe your points or attitude is based in any way upon knowledge of the immigrants in europe, chances are they are dissimilar to the people in the country from which they come, hence why they are different.

As for the immigrants to Sweden, how do you know, for a fact, that those bringing the practice of female genital mutilation are islamic?
It is a form of afrikaan tradition if I'm not mistaken, any relationship to Islam is purely coincidental.

Boo hoo, so Poland wasn't a country. Congratulations, it changes nothing.
What matters is not the name of the country but the culture and the people.... And I was referring to the nazis, genius.


This brings me to Hinelle, he lives in a place with an extremely intolerant culture that practices Islam.
Do you really think all Islamic immigrants share that culture?

For fucks sake, if I were to judge all the christians in Poland by you, I'd think they are intolerant savages incapable of human empathy.... But if I met someone who got out of Poland, I'd say "Glad you got out of that shithole!", not "You bastard.".

The problem you seem to be facing is the refusal to seperate culture from religion - the two are different if intertwined matters. The nazi party were christians, I wouldn't judge christians by them. The westboro baptist church are christians, but I wouldn't judge christians by them.

Think of the US stereotype of the wifebeater southern man, even if I were to think southerners were like that I would not judge christians by then, despite christianity being part of that stereotype.

I choose to do my best to not be ignorant, it's a good thing.

 

[RedDagger]

This thread is not going to end well.

Well, at least it's gotten off on the right foot...or on its knees, clawing forward desperately, if you prefer.

Anyway, with a complete disregard for the mental being of myself and others, I'll throw in my opinion.

I think that people should be allowed to wear wear what they want in public, not including some more extreme things. Because, in the end, people don't care about other people's faces. I don't really see a huge need to be able to verify that, yup, that person has a face. If it comes to be a security concern for whatever reason then yes, I also see no problem with removing them for a small period of time. Call me ignorant, but I just can't see the need to see someone's face.

 

[Fallowfox]

I don't believe your points or attitude is based in any way upon knowledge of the immigrants in europe, chances are they are dissimilar to the people in the country from which they come, hence why they are different.

As for the immigrants to Sweden, how do you know, for a fact, that those bringing the practice of female genital mutilation are islamic?
It is a form of afrikaan tradition if I'm not mistaken, any relationship to Islam is purely coincidental.

Boo hoo, so Poland wasn't a country. Congratulations, it changes nothing.
What matters is not the name of the country but the culture and the people.... And I was referring to the nazis, genius.


This brings me to Hinelle, he lives in a place with an extremely intolerant culture that practices Islam.
Do you really think all Islamic immigrants share that culture?

For fucks sake, if I were to judge all the christians in Poland by you, I'd think they are intolerant savages incapable of human empathy.... But if I met someone who got out of Poland, I'd say "Glad you got out of that shithole!", not "You bastard.".

The problem you seem to be facing is the refusal to seperate culture from religion - the two are different if intertwined matters. The nazi party were christians, I wouldn't judge christians by them. The westboro baptist church are christians, but I wouldn't judge christians by them.

Think of the US stereotype of the wifebeater southern man, even if I were to think southerners were like that I would not judge christians by then, despite christianity being part of that stereotype.

I choose to do my best to not be ignorant, it's a good thing.

The FGM in Northern European countries has been imported by African immigrants as well as Muslim immigrants. They send their daughters back to their home country or to unlicensed doctors to be mutilated.

The relationship of FGM and Islam is a bit more nuanced than coincidental; some Muslim communities have adopted the practice to the extent they view it as part of Islam.

It is however still a minority practice in Muslim communities in Northern Europe, and asserting that it's 'our fault for letting the Muslims in' is a nonsense argument. It's our fault for not prosecuting effectively until now.

 

[CaptainCool]

It is a step into the right direction.
Sure, people should be free to wear what they want, but these women are not free to wear what they want in the first place. Islam forces them to cover their head in some way. Banning these nonsensical veils doesn't take away their freedom, it gives them the freedom to wear what they want without having to conceal their entire body!
It is also yet another nonsensical religious tradition that is being removed from the public, so I am all for it.

 

[Ozriel]

It is a step into the right direction.
Sure, people should be free to wear what they want, but these women are not free to wear what they want in the first place. Islam forces them to cover their head in some way. Banning these nonsensical veils doesn't take away their freedom, it gives them the freedom to wear what they want without having to conceal their entire body!
It is also yet another nonsensical religious tradition that is being removed from the public, so I am all for it.

So what if they want to wear it anyway?

 

[Fallowfox]

It is a step into the right direction.
Sure, people should be free to wear what they want, but these women are not free to wear what they want in the first place. Islam forces them to cover their head in some way. Banning these nonsensical veils doesn't take away their freedom, it gives them the freedom to wear what they want without having to conceal their entire body!
It is also yet another nonsensical religious tradition that is being removed from the public, so I am all for it.

Forcing someone to be a Muslim or wear certain Muslim dress is already illegal, because it constitutes an abusive relationship. If individuals want to wear the Niqab of their own volition what's wrong with that?

Conspiracy theorists are entitled to wear their tinfoil hats, and everyone else should be entitled to their own magic clothes if they want them and they're not indecent.

 

[Kosdu]

The FGM in Northern European countries has been imported by African immigrants as well as Muslim immigrants. They send their daughters back to their home country or to unlicensed doctors to be mutilated.

The relationship of FGM and Islam is a bit more nuanced than coincidental; some Muslim communities have adopted the practice to the extent they view it as part of Islam.

It is however still a minority practice in Muslim communities in Northern Europe, and asserting that it's 'our fault for letting the Muslims in' is a nonsense argument. It's our fault for not prosecuting effectively until now.

I sure am glad you are here, we tend to be of the same opinion when it comes to these things, only you can keep a level head and explain it better.

@CC

I'm not so sure those in europe are being forces to wear the veils rather than doing so of their own volition....
And at it's basic level this law is indeed taking away the freedom to choose to wear veils.... not giving them the freedom to wear them as they wish.

The biggest problem in this by and far is that the law is reeking of xenophobia, not hard data indicating benefits to those affected.

 

[Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs]

I don't care as long as they are not blowing stuff up, which will probably happen because the FSA lost to Assad and young jihadists are coming back to the EU. Europe you best be on your toes.

 

[RedDagger]

Banning these nonsensical veils doesn't take away their freedom, it gives them the freedom to wear what they want without having to conceal their entire body!

Then again, what's the likelihood that a lot of women (the ones who are forced in some way to wear such things) will just be kept indoors, instead of being allowed to go against it? If it is being forced in such a way, I can see that happening a fair bit.
('if' being an important word here)

 

[Hana-Nezumi]

It is a step into the right direction.
Sure, people should be free to wear what they want, but these women are not free to wear what they want in the first place. Islam forces them to cover their head in some way. Banning these nonsensical veils doesn't take away their freedom, it gives them the freedom to wear what they want without having to conceal their entire body!
It is also yet another nonsensical religious tradition that is being removed from the public, so I am all for it.

The biggest problem in this by and far is that the law is reeking of xenophobia, not hard data indicating benefits to those affected.

Totally.

 

[Kit H. Ruppell]

I guess I'm an unpopular voice by stating that I don't agree with this. I think that prohibiting facial coverage for "security reasons" is skirting around the real issue that most Europeans are uncomfortable with foreigners.

It's myopic to say this is okay because you don't agree with Islam, or the practice of Muslim women covering up, etc, etc. Just like I don't want to be governed by religious laws because I'm not religious, we shouldn't prohibit religious practices under the guise of secularism.
I don't understand why as human beings we have such a hard time being accepting of other cultures.

You're fine with honor killings, genital mutilation, animal sacrifice and holy war, then? All of these things are 'religious practices'.

 

[CaptainCool]

Then again, what's the likelihood that a lot of women (the ones who are forced in some way to wear such things) will just be kept indoors, instead of being allowed to go against it? If it is being forced in such a way, I can see that happening a fair bit.
('if' being an important word here)

Islam is evil so that is a very real possibility.

As for women who want to wear those, I think those veils that don't cover the face are ok, but completely conceiling your face in public? No. I see no reason why that would be allowed. It is already forbidden to cover yourself like that in banks and at other public places and it is done for safety reasons.

most Europeans are uncomfortable with foreigners.

I am not uncomfortable with foreigners, I am uncomfortable with islam. It is one of the most evil cults on earth and it is spreading like crazy here in europe. Any time you touch islam something explodes (literally and metaphorically). Religious freedom is one thing, but this has to be brought under control.

 

[Fallowfox]

Islam is evil so that is a very real possibility.

As for women who want to wear those, I think those veils that don't cover the face are ok, but completely conceiling your face in public? No. I see no reason why that would be allowed. It is already forbidden to cover yourself like that in banks and at other public places and it is done for safety reasons.



I am not uncomfortable with foreigners, I am uncomfortable with islam. It is one of the most evil cults on earth and it is spreading like crazy here in europe. Any time you touch islam something explodes (literally and metaphorically). Religious freedom is one thing, but this has to be brought under control.

If you're in a private area or there is a safety requirement people can demand your face is exposed at all times.

If you're just out in public and a police officer asks to see your face you need to show them.

Fair enough?

 

[Ayattar]

I don't believe your points or attitude is based in any way upon knowledge of the immigrants in europe, chances are they are dissimilar to the people in the country from which they come, hence why they are different.

As for the immigrants to Sweden, how do you know, for a fact, that those bringing the practice of female genital mutilation are islamic?
It is a form of afrikaan tradition if I'm not mistaken, any relationship to Islam is purely coincidental.

Fallowfox explained that already, so I'm not goint to repeat it.

They had one common denominator.

Boo hoo, so Poland wasn't a country. Congratulations, it changes nothing.
What matters is not the name of the country but the culture and the people.... And I was referring to the nazis, genius

Yes, it is important, as those restrictions were issued by the central authority. And they were a consequence of jews being the major force in anarchistic movements in Russia at that time.

I simply care and I'm afraid. Here, have a video. Watch it. I guess you can spend six minutes on it. How do the values promoted by this guy relate to our, western values? It's far worse than christian zealotism which is stigmatised on this forum so often and so much. But strangely it doesn't bother you, even if it can affect your life (oh, sorry, you're murican, so not yours!) far more.

For fucks sake, if I were to judge all the christians in Poland by you, I'd think they are intolerant savages incapable of human empathy.... But if I met someone who got out of Poland, I'd say "Glad you got out of that shithole!", not "You bastard.".

WRONG. In my whole family I'm the only atheist (well, more like agnostic). I struggled for years for them to accept me as I am, and I still didn't entirely succeed in that task. But maybe this is the reason why I am so against the religious brainwashing. Islamic brainwashing included.

Do you really think all Islamic immigrants share that culture?

No. But assuming that only people who are different emmigrate is totally wrong. It's enough for me to observe who leaves my country. It's either highly qualified staff or cheap, unqualified and uncultured labor. Medium class is not emigrating. I'll let you guess which gropu is more numerous.

The problem you seem to be facing is the refusal to seperate culture from religion - the two are different if intertwined matters. The nazi party were christians, I wouldn't judge christians by them. The westboro baptist church are christians, but I wouldn't judge christians by them.

The problem is, that in Islamic world religion is more connected to the culture than in our case. Even when we look at Poland where being a good catholic is treated as a must among the features of a good Pole. "How can you not be a christian! You can't be a good Pole this way!" - I heard it so many times. It's slowly changing as the new generation comes in power (people born after 1985) but it still can be heard.

And no, I'm not discriminating anyone because of the religion. I have two muslim acquintances, one is a Turk (hard not to if I'm working with turks so often that I even consider learning their language) and second is from Iraq. I'm discriminating them because of how they do with their religion. If you're an expansive jerk trying to impose your views on others then get the fuck out - and right now in the Europe islam does it in far more determined and agressive way than any other religion or ideology.

 

[Nekokami]

People should be able to wear what they want, as long as they cover the 'essentials'.
Ninten out! *flies away*

 

[CaptainCool]

If you're in a private area or there is a safety requirement people can demand your face is exposed at all times.

If you're just out in public and a police officer asks to see your face you need to show them.

Fair enough?

And then you steal something in public, the police shows yout he video footage and you can claim that it wasn't you. "What, that wasn't me! Look, you can't even see the face! :V"
And this does happen. Look at the internet, people who are anonymous behave like dicks. A veil that covers your face does make you anonymous. If you are captured on tape stealing shit and they can't see your face or if you are even wearing one of those full-body veils they can't do shit.

 

[monochromatic-dragon]

The law has practical applications, yes (I would more likely label them practical "excuses")
Okay. So most people who want to wear religious attire (or maybe they just want to protect their face from sunburn? Or hell, they may even just like wearing a veil) aren't going around and stealing things. What comes to mind is some guy in a ski mask , and even that guy isn't wearing his when commuting to the scene of the crime. So who is to say that someone wearing a full body covering wouldn't do the same if they really planned to steal something.