Furry Acceptance in Today's World

[Miles Marsalis]

Lol, typical of you Miles, sadly typical. A lgbt person tells you that using the term quiltbag as a straight person is , in their opinion stupid and offputting, and you continue to do so when communicating with said person. Also you know I'm not Canadian from our previous interactions. It seems you also haven't read the law at all or you would know what you are saying, is wrong.

As for on topic; furry as a fandom is pretty accaptable, our conventions aren't a underground hidden thing. Like all slightly odd fandoms there will be people that make fun of it.

I mean, I outlined the Florida law has provisions that apply to all grades that are restrictive and forbid the teaching of LGBT material; you're specifically and intentionally only referring to the provisions meant for grades 3 and below. Which you would know if you either read the law.

I thought you were Canadian, but I admit we don't talk much, probably to our mutual benefit.

And last time I checked, QUILTBAG wasn't a slur.

 

[Regret]

And last time I checked, QUILTBAG wasn't a slur.

Going to be real here, this is my first time ever seeing this initialism/acronym (?), and if it wasn’t for people here using it I would assume it’s a slur on first glance.

 

[PercyD]

Going to be real here, this is my first time ever seeing this initialism/acronym (?), and if it wasn’t for people here using it I would assume it’s a slur on first glance.

Its not a slur. Trust me.

 

[Miles Marsalis]

I don't see why my own personal anecdotes shouldn't be worth anything if Percy's are supposed to be valuable. I'm being generous here and relating to a foreign country rather than having other users try to relate to mine, so don't blame me if I don't bother to cite all your posts for you. Canada, where I live and have always lived, has had this policy in place for a long time. Legal protection has been the case for Canadians for a quarter century and I'm sure even the ass-backwards US has seen cases where hate-motivations were related to criminal sentencing.

I've used your personal anecdotes, so I wouldn't say they're completely useless. I'd point out that I was referring to your clear misunderstanding of our legal system here being someone not from here.

I'd also point you very much argue for our most ass-backward tendencies, thank you very much.

"""Voluntarily""" you say. Right. Men are required to sign up for the draft to access a number of social programs as well as to avoid potential penalties. This is just getting too political for the FAF Miles. I'm starting to get very bored and it's losing focus.

I never relied on those programs except for the ones geared towards college (and you need to register with the Selective Service for college), but I think it's a fair trade for most part. You get access to government benefits and college in exchange for registering for a potential, which hasn't been called in decades and probably won't be. I'll admit that I was willing to do ROTC in college to fund my education, though my university didn't offer the program and applicants got diverted to a readiness program on weekends. If I had to, or have to if I'm still eligible, go into service due to a draft, I'll go because that is the deal.

There aren't any free lunches and there is a draft in the future, it wouldn't be called lightly, so hey.

I'd point out that if you are willing to forego those programs and college, you probably don't have to register or at least won't be caught up in it.

Literally didn't read it after seeing the title. Another garbage clickbait waste of time I'm sure. A reputable source would be nice. If these claims were true, you could cite them from a government source, not just a media fear-mongering outlet.

ProPublica is bipartisan anti-corruption publication; they don't have a political agenda.

But of course the itemized list of how LGBT rights have violated and how queer folks are discriminated against here blows away your argument that they haven't been systematically oppressed. This also explains why you'd dismiss the list as "political" despite being the first one to make sure a political assertion here.

I'd encourage everyone reading this to view this list and see how persuasive it is, though.

Under Trump, LGBTQ Progress Is Being Reversed in Plain Sight

Donald Trump promised he would fight for LGBTQ people. Instead, his administration has systematically undone recent gains in their rights and protections. Here are 31 examples.

projects.propublica.org

Additionally, the article directly cites government sources and policies.

No, it's quite appropriate. Ask a small child what "gay" means, they're not gonna know or care. It's not appropriate for the age group, nor is it "stripping rights" from anyone. You're being very disingenuous.

I know kids in and outside my family who know what gay means and who were taught it in school. It's no different from kids learning about black history (which is also being banned in the curriculum in Florida) or women's history. The eleven-year-old in my household knows about gay couples and he grew in a conservative household before he came here.

I can see not teaching sex education geared towards gay students to young children, but teaching kids about the gay rights movement, gay historical figures, and that gay people basically exist is appropriate.

It's very much in your "friends'" best interests for you to drop this, Miles.

https://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/which-things-you-guys-hate-on-the-furry-community.1681040/
Here's a very public account of one of those users being an awful, toxic and disruptive presence. The other user again is known as a prick to everyone who doesn't appear to align politically. I'm a lot nicer to the lot of you than the inverse and I always have been. You all know that, and acting like the two and more are good, decent people does not match the reality of their very public posts.

I'm surprised you brought this thread up, honestly, because that thread doesn't cast you in a good light at all and multiple people, some whom don't even know, agreed you out of line there and dogwhistling, in wake of user advocating for the religious murder of queer folks no less.

 

[Guifrog]

*scratches head*

As for those who don't know what furry is in my country, I don't know. But fursuiters tend to cause amused reactions

 

[Punji]

Blah blah blah politics blah blah blah

Politics, personal attacks, and disingenuousness. This is getting very dull. It's still against the rules. Once again if you must post drivel here at least source the government. Not some media hit piece, not some "apolitical" political organization.

I know kids in and outside my family who know what gay means and who were taught it in school. It's no different from kids learning about black history (which is also being banned in the curriculum in Florida) or women's history. The eleven-year-old in my household knows about gay couples and he grew in a conservative household before he came here.

I can see not teaching sex education geared towards gay students to young children, but teaching kids about the gay rights movement, gay historical figures, and that gay people basically exist is appropriate.

Probably because some other kid called them "gay" and the kids asked what that meant, same as the rest of us. Keep in mind LGBT people are still an extreme minority. Teaching people the gays exist doesn't really matter, it's not exactly an inconceivable concept. Kids will grow up to be gay or whatever with or without being told it's a minor possibility. The only reason this is even supposedly taught is for people to pretend they care about LGBT rights when we've already had the same rights for a long time. As always, I think Morgan Freeman's approach of "just stop talking about it" is the right one. Stop acting like it's this great special thing and maybe people will stop caring so much. It will be seen as normal when it's treated normally.

I'm surprised you brought this thread up, honestly, because that thread doesn't cast you in a good light at all and multiple people, some whom don't even know, agreed you out of line there and dogwhistling, in wake of user advocating for the religious murder of queer folks no less.

It's very telling you'd say so, dear old buddy ol' pal. This is the thread in which I repeatedly asked other users to stop dog-piling and bullying other users over imagined slights and petty grudges. I told you and the above personally to be better people, and overall I acted once again more professionally and more politely than either.

You try to make things up and attack me on the assumption no one will bother to read the linked thread. The only dogwhistles ever used on this forum is ironically "dogwhistle." It's a meaningless term used to justify attacks when you don't like someone.

I've been attacked by the both of you here once again because I ask that people's problems are treated with equal concern where others only want attention drawn to their own problems. View issues faced by others only as issues and other people as people instead of lesser problems or lesser groups. I talked at length of my issues with disability and the lack there of with being LGBT to demonstrate this: Different people have different problems. I want people to be able to discuss their problems as they need to. Not to talk over the problems of others because they're "less important."

I don't believe you nor the other users in question care at all about the problems of others. This entire debacle started because someone felt they were more important than everyone else's concerns here.

 

[Smityyyy]

@Punji I’m sorry but the “just stop talking about it” line has never, and will never work. Gay marriage is illegal in the vast majority of the world. And in the countries where it is legal, decades of systemic discrimination takes time to undo. The second you legalize something across a nation doesn’t erase the hate or medical ignorance that has flourished unchecked for decades.

Just because Walmart slaps a pride flag on their stores for one month per year doesn’t change the medical neglect, hate crimes, employment discrimination, domestic abuse, and sexual violence rates that LGBTQ+ face. And that’s in developed countries. In many parts of the world… we’d just be killed or jailed.

No fight for civil rights has ever been won by shutting up. This is the same line that conservatives have used for decades to shut down civil rights movements for everything under the sun. Change is made by loud, annoying, and persistent activism. And so far… it’s working. We’ve seen nothing but increased acceptance toward LGBTQ+ folks over time.

The second legal protections are put into place isn’t where civil rights fights just end. Many parts of even the most developed countries still openly assault or even kill LGBTQ+. We’re far from being in a time where all activism just stops. We’re not yet at the end of history.

 

[PercyD]

I wouldn't be surprised. Ben Franklin is one of my favorite historical figures. I wonder if Voltaire did too.

I am sure Voltaire may have had a cache of erotica fiction. At the very least, it is my headcanon that they may have been erotica rivals--

 

[PercyD]

@Punji I’m sorry but the “just stop talking about it” line has never, and will never work. Gay marriage is illegal in the vast majority of the world. And in the countries where it is legal, decades of systemic discrimination takes time to undo. The second you legalize something across a nation doesn’t erase the hate or medical ignorance that has flourished unchecked for decades.

Just because Walmart slaps a pride flag on their stores for one month per year doesn’t change the medical neglect, hate crimes, employment discrimination, domestic abuse, and sexual violence rates that LGBTQ+ face. And that’s in developed countries. In many parts of the world… we’d just be killed or jailed.

No fight for civil rights has ever been won by shutting up. This is the same line that conservatives have used for decades to shut down civil rights movements for everything under the sun. Change is made by loud, annoying, and persistent activism. And so far… it’s working. We’ve seen nothing but increased acceptance toward LGBTQ+ folks over time.

The second legal protections are put into place isn’t where civil rights fights just end. Many parts of even the most developed countries still openly assault or even kill LGBTQ+. We’re far from being in a time where all activism just stops. We’re not yet at the end of history.

They honestly have a habit of shutting down these kinds of conversations, from what I have seen...

 

[Miles Marsalis]

Politics, personal attacks, and disingenuousness. This is getting very dull. It's still against the rules. Once again if you must post drivel here at least source the government. Not some media hit piece, not some "apolitical" political organization.

It's getting dull because you don't a reasonable answer to it.

The articles has direct links to legislation and executive orders, since it is a journalistic publication. If you're too lazy and disingenuous to read it like an adult, that is fine. But there are 31 examples of rights being from QUILTBAG citizens in this country, listed for your convenience.

Don't hide behind not wanting to be political when you started this off with a very political assertion in the first place.

Probably because some other kid called them "gay" and the kids asked what that meant, same as the rest of us. Keep in mind LGBT people are still an extreme minority. Teaching people the gays exist doesn't really matter, it's not exactly an inconceivable concept. Kids will grow up to be gay or whatever with or without being told it's a minor possibility. The only reason this is even supposedly taught is for people to pretend they care about LGBT rights when we've already had the same rights for a long time. As always, I think Morgan Freeman's approach of "just stop talking about it" is the right one. Stop acting like it's this great special thing and maybe people will stop caring so much. It will be seen as normal when it's treated normally.

You may have had those rights for a long time in Canada, but here gay marriage became federal ... in 2015. That only happened because of an uptick in activism spearheading the issue and legal organizations pressing the case all the way up to the Supreme Court.

Even now, there are states with legislation to allow "religious exceptions" for businesses to deny service to gay customers and it wasn't too long ago that sodomy laws were on the books.

I'd argue that like the civil rights movement, there has only been traction on the gay rights front because people paying attention to it and activism around it.

It's very telling you'd say so, dear old buddy ol' pal. This is the thread in which I repeatedly asked other users to stop dog-piling and bullying other users over imagined slights and petty grudges. I told you and the above personally to be better people, and overall I acted once again more professionally and more politely than either.

You try to make things up and attack me on the assumption no one will bother to read the linked thread. The only dogwhistles ever used on this forum is ironically "dogwhistle." It's a meaningless term used to justify attacks when you don't like someone.

I've been attacked by the both of you here once again because I ask that people's problems are treated with equal concern where others only want attention drawn to their own problems. View issues faced by others only as issues and other people as people instead of lesser problems or lesser groups. I talked at length of my issues with disability and the lack there of with being LGBT to demonstrate this: Different people have different problems. I want people to be able to discuss their problems as they need to. Not to talk over the problems of others because they're "less important."

I don't believe you nor the other users in question care at all about the problems of others. This entire debacle started because someone felt they were more important than everyone else's concerns here.

Percy very clearly said that both struggles of QUILTBAG and disabled people are valid and real, though. Percy wasn't trying to say one group has it worse than the other or talk over your struggle.

You are misrepresenting thing here like how you did on that thread.

Furthermore, that user being ganged up thought it was alright to murder queer folks for religious reasons.

 

[Smityyyy]

They honestly have a habit of shutting down these kinds of conversations, from what I have seen...

I figured as much. Just not going to allow for this same line to get thrown around over and over. LGBT kids deserve education and acceptance. Our community deserves a loud voice. All minorities deserve to stand up and demand better.

It’s unfortunate that in 2022 I’m still seeing these talking-points from back in 2012. Hell, even decades before that. During MLK’s time, people spat the same lines at him.

 

[PercyD]

I figured as much. Just not going to allow for this same line to get thrown around over and over. LGBT kids deserve education and acceptance. Our community deserves a loud voice. All minorities deserve to stand up and demand better.

It’s unfortunate that in 2022 I’m still seeing these talking-points from back in 2012. Hell, even decades before that. During MLK’s time, people spat the same lines at him.

It only gets better with organization and movement from communities.

Getting back to what I originally posted: There are a lot of Ne'er-do-well and bad faith actors who try to co-op the Furry community for their means. They use our language that we use for activism and talking about our struggles and pervert it. Fascists in this community come in and try to hijack it for themselves and silence people.

I'm not letting them have it, personally. This is our shit.

 

[Baron Tredegar]

I am sure Voltaire may have had a cache of erotica fiction. At the very least, it is my headcanon that they may have been erotica rivals--

The Marquis de Sade also lived at the same time, and I can also easily see Thomas Jefferson writing some erotica.

 

[PercyD]

The Marquis de Sade also lived at the same time, and I can also easily see Thomas Jefferson writing some erotica.

Nah, Jefferson acted out the erotica. Lol. Boy was a freak.

 

[Baron Tredegar]

Nah, Jefferson acted out the erotica. Lol. Boy was a freak.

Yeah, Jeffersons personal life was pretty messed up.

You’re all disgusting zoophiles, go kill yourselves XD

Are you going to have some more original insults?

 

[PercyD]

Yeah, Jeffersons personal life was pretty messed up.

I dont wanna slut shame, but he was kinda a slut.

 

[Deleted member 127940]

I wonder how many tickets Flamingo is going to wake up to.

 

[Foxridley]

I wonder how many tickets Flamingo is going to wake up to.

Yes.

 

[Baron Tredegar]

I wonder how many tickets Flamingo is going to wake up to.

Between the fighting and the 12 year old anti fur I think this thread will probably be locked.

 

[PercyD]

Between the fighting and the 12 year old anti fur I think this thread will probably be locked.

Get your posts in while you can~.

 

[Baron Tredegar]

Get your posts in while you can~.

Any final arguments and derailing of the thread should be posted while you have the chance!

 

[Firuthi Dragovic]

Change is made by loud, annoying, and persistent activism.

Not nearly as much as you think it does. I need to play the asshole here and alert you that this grandiose stuff only causes the people that actually need to change to entrench.

You familiar with the concept of deradicalization? I'm fairly damn sure it doesn't rely on big-name feel-goods. No, everything I've understood of the process is that it's quieter and far more involved.

I am going to keep bringing this up until the end of days because I too often see activists refuse to even think about it. It's sad because there's about to be some incoming pushback in the world and this subtle approach is damn well necessary to defeat it. Outscreaming pushback doesn't work, sorry.

 

[PercyD]

Not nearly as much as you think it does. I need to play the asshole here and alert you that this grandiose stuff only causes the people that actually need to change to entrench.

You familiar with the concept of deradicalization? I'm fairly damn sure it doesn't rely on big-name feel-goods. No, everything I've understood of the process is that it's quieter and far more involved.

I am going to keep bringing this up until the end of days because I too often see activists refuse to even think about it. It's sad because there's about to be some incoming pushback in the world and this subtle approach is damn well necessary to defeat it. Outscreaming pushback doesn't work, sorry.

I also need to chime in here--

The only people who need to change are the people with power. Most of the people who you are referring to who entrench are on the edges of society. Plus, this is pretty tone deaf.
We should always be able to demand to be treated like human beings. Sitting quietly and waiting for people to change isn't gonna help. Those who entrench were intending on entrenching from the get go. Fortunately, you don't need them to change. You just need to challenge the people in power.

 

[Firuthi Dragovic]

The only people who need to change are the people with power. Most of the people who you are referring to who entrench are on the edges of society.

From which they lure people until they're big enough to do real damage to a movement, or cause serious crimes. You have no idea of the full extent of how hate groups and cults work, do you?

Plus, this is pretty tone deaf.

NO IT ISN'T. Not with the current rise of hate groups. My intent here is for these hate groups to be truly gone so the oppressed groups no longer need to worry, and what you did by calling this tone-deaf is basically belittle that notion. Which is dangerous.

We should always be able to demand to be treated like human beings. Sitting quietly and waiting for people to change isn't gonna help.

Something you seem to have missed here, and I admittedly may have not stated it well, is that subtlety CAN, in fact, work in tandem with the loud shit. And it needs to.

Fortunately, you don't need them to change. You just need to challenge the people in power.

Wrong again - not confronting the hate at its source is exactly how it got an opportunity to raise its ugly head again. I'm talking a full uprooting here. I'm not even interested in allowing it an opportunity to grow in places like prisons either. No, at some point you will have to go all the way on this.


I'm actually trying to take things seriously for once and to see someone shout me down because it just happens to sound slightly like a thing used to shut down conversations is quite aggravating.

You've missed the mark BIG TIME on this one.

 

[Punji]

@MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I’m sorry but the “just stop talking about it” line has never, and will never work. Gay marriage is illegal in the vast majority of the world. And in the countries where it is legal, decades of systemic discrimination takes time to undo. The second you legalize something across a nation doesn’t erase the hate or medical ignorance that has flourished unchecked for decades.

Just because Walmart slaps a pride flag on their stores for one month per year doesn’t change the medical neglect, hate crimes, employment discrimination, domestic abuse, and sexual violence rates that LGBTQ+ face. And that’s in developed countries. In many parts of the world… we’d just be killed or jailed.

No fight for civil rights has ever been won by shutting up. This is the same line that conservatives have used for decades to shut down civil rights movements for everything under the sun. Change is made by loud, annoying, and persistent activism. And so far… it’s working. We’ve seen nothing but increased acceptance toward LGBTQ+ folks over time.

The second legal protections are put into place isn’t where civil rights fights just end. Many parts of even the most developed countries still openly assault or even kill LGBTQ+. We’re far from being in a time where all activism just stops. We’re not yet at the end of history.

You're shifting the goalposts here Smitty. All the crap that goes on here is not done for anywhere else. We've only been referring to the US & Canada thus far. Corporations only support gay rights in the Western world as we all know. Making a big deal out of everything when it's already legally and socially accepted is just working against a seamless cohesion.

Beyond this, this isn't a fight for civil rights anymore. Not for the previously mentioned US & Canada. It's more about full acceptance by everyone, and that's not going to happen by treating each other like different groups of people altogether. People need to treat each other as people and not as hetero verses not.

I figured as much. Just not going to allow for this same line to get thrown around over and over. LGBT kids deserve education and acceptance. Our community deserves a loud voice. All minorities deserve to stand up and demand better.

It’s unfortunate that in 2022 I’m still seeing these talking-points from back in 2012. Hell, even decades before that. During MLK’s time, people spat the same lines at him.

I'm simply calling out toxic self-centred behaviours where an individual wants to talk over other people because they think their problems are more important.

No one would try to "shut the conversation down" if it had it's own thread right from the start instead of simply attacking this one.

POLITICS

Percy very clearly said that both struggles of QUILTBAG and disabled people are valid and real, though. Percy wasn't trying to say one group has it worse than the other or talk over your struggle.

You are misrepresenting thing here like how you did on that thread.

Furthermore, that user being ganged up thought it was alright to murder queer folks for religious reasons.

It's getting dull because you're dragging this way out of proportion and trying to get me to debate politics with you now. I literally don't care and as I stated initially, this thread was not about law and even if it was Canada and the US already have legal protection over this.

Once again you commit ad hominem attacks because I asked you to provide a government source for these supposed government rulings.

The user only said so while under the understanding being fat made her disabled and therefore mattered as it related to her. Suddenly when called out it wasn't the important part anymore.

The one inflammatory dork was before I posted anything. The user in question was harassing other users over imagined slights and then picking fights with everyone else after that other guy was gone. It's clear as day even here in this thread that you're defending a terrible, disruptive presence for no reason beyond looking good in front of everyone.