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Felix Bernard

Chemist, Conservative, Mark Levin fan
Hear me out now before continue reading! I do NOT write this out of spite or hatred or out of a prideful heart. I write this genuinely out of personal convictions which are central to my faith. To those who disagree, please give me the same respect and civility I am here about to give you - and if you really feel strongly about something PM me. I am happy to answer all your concerns and questions to the best of my ability.

The topic of sexuality is not new to the fandom, it is very much a central issue. Every time religion is mentioned this topic seems to always come up. The outside world looks at the furry fandom and sees it as one that is so sexual and dominated by homosexuality. Those within the fandom who have contrary opinions on sexuality seem in general to be shoved off by the fandom for fear they are a threat to the fandom which is supposed to be outgoing and accepting. I wish to give my opinion on this, an opinion based centrally on Scripture. Because to me, Biblical Christianity and the furry fandom don't have to be mutually exclusive.

As is always said: in the beginning God created male and female to be joined together. This was His design in creation. Since the fall, however, things have broken apart and mankind has gone astray. We no longer live in perfect harmony. War, disease, famine, and general disorderliness is part of reality. Along with a breaking in harmony the thoughts and desires of men and women have turned far from perfection. Our loves are not directed toward God as they should be, our desires are not all good, our hearts are distracted with many things. Our sexuality too, a very powerful thing, is broken. Lust ravishes the very depths of the heart and causes both man and woman alike to stumble at its oppressive grip. Part of this fallenness is, yes, LGBT lifestyles and attractions. Attraction itself isn’t necessarily a sin. But acting upon those attractions is. This is something I would like to discuss more.

I understand the pain that the LGBT has gone through over the years. Many have been abused and harassed. I do not at all endorse this. I in fact condemn it. Those who mistreat others for having same sex attraction have themselves sinned greatly, and such behavior is not at all Christ-like. People with exclusively same sex attractions and also follow Christian teachings are faced with the inevitable question as to the possibility of their being in a relationship. Should they stay celibate their entire lives? People who suffer from gender dysphoria, should they have to continue suffering from it? These are very hard questions. These are questions that have caused much pain and suffering. I myself am bisexual.

I believe though, and I always will, that the Scriptures are true, and Jesus Christ is who He said He is. He is the giver of Life, the Light of the world, the source of all Truth. He is God Himself come in the flesh to bear upon Himself the sins of the world and to redeem His elect. By faith we are made His, not a faith of ourselves, it is a gift of God. This faith alone justifies, and through it we are sanctified and made more holy - though never perfect in this life. This is the Gospel. This is the good news which transcends all culture and time. The Scriptures are indeed infallible, and it is amazing to see the vast number of manuscripts we have which agree to such profound accuracy. This is the only truth that can save. The Gospel is different than all other world religions. It is different than all other philosophies. It is a message of "it is done." I am nothing without the Gospel. Years ago when I was released from the hospital for depression, it was not years of medicine or therapy that helped, it was my realization of the reality of the Gospel message. Christ did it all. His righteousness is mine, and everything I deserve He took upon Himself. I used to be a broken mess of a person. I was extremely hateful. I use to be a rabid anti-furry. I remember the time I told a gay furry I thought he should be executed by the government - and that really hurt him a lot. Today I live with that, I feel horrible about that. I cannot take back those words... But one thing I know: I am nothing without Christ. He is who set me free, He is who brought such clarity to me and who softened my heart. Having a serious form of Tourette’s Syndrome growing up, I thought I couldn’t ever fit in anywhere. I knew Christ was my friend though. That is my story.

I will not stop speaking of His wondrous works. I will never stop. I will proclaim what I know is true - and that only through love.

So what do I have to say about the vast LGBT community here? Simple. God sent His Son into the world to die for sinners, which I am the chief and worst of. Give your sufferings and doubts to Him. Kneel to Him in prayer, pick up a Bible and read His Word. You may not feel He is there for you, but for those who are His He is suffering right beside you. You, His sheep, are dearly loved, you were bought with a price. Do not let your worldly affection trump the love you ought to have for the one who loves you infinitely! This is my story, indeed, for there is much I always have to give up for my God... Sometimes following Him will not take all your pain away. But, I say, who knows pain better than Christ? The one who took upon Himself the bitterest miseries. The one who was forsaken by the Father and left to die on a cross. The one who took upon Himself every tear and sorrow. Let Him suffer next to you. Put your faith and trust in Him, turn from your own ways and rest in Him, for surely He is the best guide and a very present help in times of trouble. To all your hard questions, and to all your personal struggles, who better knows them than Christ?
 
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-..Legacy..-

Guest
So to abbreviate, your asking if it's possible to selectively pick and choose what parts of faith one is willing to accept, while still maintaining (or being acceptable) to your faith.

I'm straight, but I don't think I can look down upon another for their preferences. Personally, most guys I know of the opposite orientation are better humans than the former.

This should be an interesting thread to follow if it doesn't turn into a dumpster fire.
 

Simo

Professional Watermelon Farmer
So if living life and being gay is sinful, and Christ took on my sins, I 'recon that means Jesus was gay. I had a hunch, that long hair, like a girl!

But on a serious note:

I find it both derogatory and offensive to be called a sinner due to my sexual inclinations and practices; to me, this is a very psychologically unhealthy thing to promote, and the cause of many harms and pain to so many people. I'm tired of Christianity making sex something 'dirty' and sinful. It may be for you, but this is key among the many, many reasons I flatly reject the religion.

As Nietzsche said:

"It was Christianity, with it's deep dislike of (earthly) life at the bottom of its heart, that first made something unclean of sexuality: It threw filth upon the origin, upon the presupposition of our lives."

The Bible tends to be more or less against, or at least very wary of, sexual pleasure in general, which for me is the bigger problem with Christianity. It seeks to elevate the 'spiritual', and in the process downplays the beauty of life and denigrates the physical world. A schism opens between body and soul. We have the Virgin Mary, and thus the idea that this is somehow preferable...as if it would have been 'unclean' otherwise, that Mary couldn't have just had normal sex and still had Jesus pop out just the same.

But beneath it all is a movement away from the earth based to a so-called heavenly based spirituality, and this is where I most dislike Christianity. Earth becomes this orb now placed merely in relation to Heaven and Hell, and the body becomes a sort of dirty old rag, compared to the soul.

I like the earth, my body, and I find no need of having to separate it from what might be called my 'self' or 'soul': as Nietzsche said, "The body is the soul"
 

Felix Bernard

Chemist, Conservative, Mark Levin fan
So to abbreviate, your asking if it's possible to selectively pick and choose what parts of faith one is willing to accept, while still maintaining (or being acceptable) to your faith.

I'm straight, but I don't think I can look down upon another for their preferences. Personally, most guys I know of the opposite orientation are better humans than the former.

This should be an interesting thread to follow if it doesn't turn into a dumpster fire.

I do not quite understand your first sentence.
 

WolfNightV4X1

King of Kawaii; That Token Femboy
I am a Christian, but I also support LGBT rights, if not for the sake of scripture, for the sake of human rights.

I think it's pretty hypocritical to be calling out homosexuality and transgenderness as a sin, and to highlight "one man, one woman" when in the biblical age concubines and polygamy were highly prevalent, did God condemn Abraham and all the Christians of the time period for the same actions so that hell was the only place they could go, or were those sins forgiven and forgotten while they lived their lives without remorse and they simply went to heaven, unlike those who are homosexual and transgender, which is inevitably an unavoidable factor in life.

You say you struggle with same-sex attraction (through art), but that would essentially (if you so accepted the fact) make you bi. Homosexuals do not have that options, nor do transgender people. These people are inherently forced to live a life of isolation or discomfort by virtue of that which they are and cannot control. You cannot arguably compare any struggle or pain to the struggle of someone in those situations.

Did you know intersexuality is essentially people or animals who essentially have both male and female organs simultaneously? Did you know both males and females are human regardless of physical characteristics? Did you know "crossdressing" is completely arbitrary and based on the time period and looking at the big picture wearing certain types of clothing is just that, clothing.


Not only that, but treating sexual intercourse as a sin on it's own inevitibly causes a lot of fearmongering and strain on what is inevitably a natural biological process. Teenager and adults can and do have a sex drive, shaming people for these urges they feel is incredibly counterintuitive and leads to a lot of psychological problems in the longer term.

Isn't the core value of the bible and God's word that we are followers of Christ's and as servants we must do to others what we would ourselves, to love and respect and care for everything and everyone while we live on this Earth until the day we die? To serve man as Jesus Christ came from heaven to Earth to serve us?

In the end, this is what matters. Not who we love, what we do, what we eat, what we wear. We do our best to be Christlike, and that's what matters in the end.

I so understand and respect and am glad that you have at least taken a more loving, caring approach to the LGBT community rather than condeming them in an angry way, so I have respect for you as well, overall. People are different, and will remain so, so giving each other an agree to disagree approach and allowing each other to live peacefully with full human rights is the best course of action.
 
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-..Legacy..-

Guest
I do not quite understand your first sentence.

You either have to accept your faith in full (which I know is non-negotiable), or feel acceptance of another's beliefs.

There is technically no middle ground with this.

So either this thread is about discussing this delicate middle ground, or as mentioned before, preaching others to decry it. Using words like "suffer from" were probably not the best choice to bring about positive discussion.
 

Felix Bernard

Chemist, Conservative, Mark Levin fan
I find it both derogatory and offensive to be called a sinner due to my sexual inclinations and practices; to me, this is a very psychologically unhealthy thing to promote, and the cause of many harms and pain to so many people. I'm tired of Christianity making sex something 'dirty' and sinful. It may be for you, but this is key among the many, many reasons I flatly reject the religion.

Homosexual practice isn’t the only sin though..

We don’t believe sex is sinful within the context of a man-and-woman marriage.

As Nietzsche said:

"It was Christianity, with it's deep dislike of (earthly) life at the bottom of its heart, that first made something unclean of sexuality: It threw filth upon the origin, upon the presupposition of our lives."

The Bible tends to be more or less against, or at least very wary of, sexual pleasure in general, which for me is the bigger problem with Christianity. It seeks to elevate the 'spiritual', and in the process downplays the beauty of life and denigrates the physical world. A schism opens between body and soul. We have the Virgin Mary, and thus the idea that this is somehow preferable...as if it would have been 'unclean' otherwise, that Mary couldn't have just had normal sex and still had Jesus pop out just the same.

But beneath it all is a movement away from the earth based to a so-called heavenly based spirituality, and this is where I most dislike Christianity. Earth becomes this orb now placed merely in relation to Heaven and Hell, and the body becomes a sort of dirty old rag, compared to the soul.

I like the earth, my body, and I find no need of having to separate it from what might be called my 'self' or 'soul': as Nietzsche said, "The body is the soul"

Sorry to pop your bubble, but what you and Nietzsche are fighting against here is the ancient heresy of Gnosticism. The Bible does not at all hint at the physical realm and sex being utterly worthless - read the Songs of Solom for example. We do not believe in rejecting the physical world and only focus on the heavenly. Yes, heaven is our goal. But the Bible clearly focuses on the physical too. As for the Virgin Mary - that was to fulfill prophecy, not to say pregnancy is evil!
 

Simo

Professional Watermelon Farmer
I'm getting some contradictory messages here. Do you accept or reject sexualities that aren't straight?

Me too.

@Felix Bernard: You say you are attracted to male furries. Does this mean at least our avis can date? :V

But I don't think homosexuality is sinful, period, and I do think Christianity, despite a few nods to enjoying God's creation, so to speak, has very much positive to say about sex, and the body.
 

WolfNightV4X1

King of Kawaii; That Token Femboy
Homosexual practice isn’t the only sin though..

We don’t believe sex is sinful within the context of a man-and-woman marriage.

But by virtue of teachings with sex only moral in the realm of marriage, you teach young adults and teens navigating their budding sex drives (Yes, it is absolutely possible to have these while being clueless about sex), to push away these urges for years and years of their life, to essentially disregard and ignore it and make it to be an undesirable behavior, and then suddenly bring it about one day in marriage after years of repressing the behavior, ultimately it's very psychologically damaging and leads to a lot of discomfort, lies, and falsification of factual sexual truths and ignorance about sex itself.

Not only that, but prior to the modern age marriage was an act that was not voluntary, but was arranged by parents to their children as they were in their teens, this really leads to no room for immoral sexual acts lest they be under sexual maturity, which in itself is immoral.

...and again, you use the phrase, "man and woman" but its common in biblical time periods for, again, polygamists relations with several wives. This isnt biblical at all, and is inherently more harmful than man and man or woman with woman, which is inevitably a consensual, love binding, relationship.
 

SSJ3Mewtwo

Well-Known Member
Ok so I have to take a moment and be serious when I say that this stuff really has no place whatsoever in this or any fandom

It's entirely permissible to debate these sorts of subjects within a community, or just debate them in general. It's part of society that things like these be discussed.

It's only unacceptable if community guidelines are crossed, and we have those laid out in the Terms and Rules tab at the top of the forum.
 
L

-..Legacy..-

Guest
It's entirely permissible to debate these sorts of subjects within a community, or just debate them in general. It's part of society that things like these be discussed.

It's only unacceptable if community guidelines are crossed, and we have those laid out in the Terms and Rules tab at the top of the forum.

I think it's going to be highly dependent on the OP's intent of this thread. Hopefully it's aligned with a thoughtful discussion, and not a platform.
 

Simo

Professional Watermelon Farmer
I think everyone has managed to be quite civil, so far, and in the other thread; I mean, I've seen many debates on such topics on various forums, and I must say, we've been real angels, so to speak, in comparison to some of the mudslinging and fights I've seen.
 

SSJ3Mewtwo

Well-Known Member
I think it's going to be highly dependent on the OP's intent of this thread. Hopefully it's aligned with a thoughtful discussion, and not a platform.

Understandable. And if it turns out that the thread was done for no other reason than to soapbox (or in the more negative potential, troll) it can be closed down. But that will have to be looked at in the context of the discussion.
 

SSJ3Mewtwo

Well-Known Member
I think everyone has managed to quite civil, so far, and in the other thread; I mean, I've seen many debates on such topics on various forums, and I must say, we've been real angels, so to speak.

That's what I was hoping for when redoing enforcement of things :)
 

Fuzzylumkin

The token panda
It's entirely permissible to debate these sorts of subjects within a community, or just debate them in general. It's part of society that things like these be discussed.

It's only unacceptable if community guidelines are crossed, and we have those laid out in the Terms and Rules tab at the top of the forum.


true... however my concern is that the fandom already has its name drug through the mud because of words like fetsh, kinks, etc... adding religion to it just makes it even worse..or at least I feel like it
 

SSJ3Mewtwo

Well-Known Member
true... however my concern is that the fandom already has its name drug through the mud because of words like fetsh, kinks, etc... adding religion to it just makes it even worse..or at least I feel like it

I don't feel that this does anything to drag the fandom through the mud. Showing that members of the fandom look into and debate these issues, if anything, does a bit to show that people who count themselves part of it have these sorts of thoughts and outlooks in mind, rather than just the usual stereotypes.

The discussion might be contentious, but it's a good thing overall that the discussion take place, as long as rules and respect are kept in mind.
 

Blaab

Member
I won't go into my opinions on sexuality much other then that true Christians are not necessarily religious in the context of the world's view of what that means, (a form of bondage and system of rituals) and they have a relationship with Christ, and are fully excepting of the person, and of all persons, regardless of their sin or actions.

This include things of sexuality.
This doesn't mean we approve of non biblical sexuality, but we do accept the person, and while we may rebuke the action and lifestyle, and try and show the person they are sinning, we do not condemn them.

With regard to furriness, I think there is a hidden line we don't have enough of information to understand, at least, with the limited knowledge I have, being relatively new to faith.

I do however have a few out there thoughts: "as it was in the days of Noah..." We don't know as of yet exactly what those days were like, it could have been highly advanced society, or very primitive, and while we know the fallen angels meddled in those days, all we can be sure on is it became so bad that God had no choice but to basically completely start over.

What exactly was bad isn't certain, but one thing we do know is that creation was twisted, for example the fallen angels tricking women into having nephillim children, aka giants.
What all this means isn't obviously known, but it could possibly mean not only human giants, but other forms of life as well, and while a part of me wants to believe this doesn't include anthropomorphic creatures or hybrid races, it's possible this is included, since fallen angels can shape shift and it may mean a whole host of human animal hybrid creatures could have existed, which could explain things like Egyptian animal headed gods.

That all said, this is obviously fringe stuff even for believers, and some of this is based off information from Enoch, who isn't considered cannon by all sects of the larger Faith.


But, with this in mind, it could mean that furriness, at large, and not just people taking it to sexual levels or to fetishes, is actually a perversion in itself of creation.

This is a question I would love answered and for certain, as I have a feeling that furriness may be used as a deceptive device by Satan to trap and lie to people, both now and in the end, and in many ways, it already is.

That being said, I am not certain and there really isn't enough info, that I have seen, to be conclusive.

And to be sure, I believe that in the same way that Christ accepts Jews as much as Gentiles, and homos as much as heteros, and every other race, religion, and person ever, I think He is well accepting of furries, even if it does turn out even depiction of furries is somehow wrong.


Which I honestly don't believe is the case, not inherently.
Sexuality, porn and the like, even biblical, in our fallen world, is, but the basic use of anthropomorphism, at least in art and such, no.

Like is bugs bunny really a sin to draw?
I don't think so, same to dressing up as him. I think this community has a lot in it that is deception and fallen, but then, that is everywhere else too, and anyone's perception of it being more prevalent here could just being the fact they are looking here more then other places....


To sum:

Christ accepts all, and true Christians do too, that doesn't mean we agree or approve of sin, nor that we won't rebuke it, but we will be open and loving to everyone regardless.

And:

Furriness could be wrong fundamentally, but there is, from my knowledge, not enough info to be sure, and in the spirit of the prior statement, it makes sense to accept furries too, and that the act of furry art, suits and such, so long as it's not wondering into sin, is likely acceptable.

Also, @Felix Bernard: I encourage your boldness, and offer my hand in support of you.

I will however say that in all that you have said, I'm not sure what exactly you were proposing with your original post....
 
L

-..Legacy..-

Guest
true... however my concern is that the fandom already has its name drug through the mud because of words like fetsh, kinks, etc... adding religion to it just makes it even worse..or at least I feel like it

It does to an extent. Anytime the internet gathers people from the ends of the earth, differing viewpoints engage each other.

Now, this thread could possibly be used for good. There is no doubt that there are individuals within the fandom of various religious sects. Their individual sects may also look down upon several aspects of the fandom, and one could have internal conflicts deciding what is "right" for the individual.

I'm all for intelligent discussions, but not staunch "Fire and Brimstone" types. I've already stood toe to toe against hardcore religious fanatics willing to die for their cause, and it's truly the worst humanity has to offer. Period.
 

Fuzzylumkin

The token panda
I mean I guess ultimately it doesn't matter to me one way or another, I'm totally non religious, I just hate the conversations where I have to explained what the fandom is to the muggles
 
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