FYI - Acceptable Upload Policy (AUP) Update

[Dragoneer]

Tell you what, go to Renderosity, Renderotica, Animotions, and DAZ and look through the galleries, tell me what you see... there are literally thousands of artists all working together becuase they accept that art is art... no matter how it is made

Well, that's fine and good for them. However, you can not repost their work to FA. You have to post your own and post something you created, not something somebody else created (unless it was created specifically for you).

"Art is art" is not an argument, it's just a statement.

 

[Dragoneer]

Jesus, enough of the persecution complex. Where in the AUP does it say that 3D isn't art and shouldn't be here at all?

The irony is that I'm a former 3D animator. =P I've never once said 3D isn't art. Not once.

I just said that people should use their own work, not something merely out of the box and/or downloaded directly from the web (e.g. the now notorious Krystal model). If people take the time to create something unique (even within the limitations of Poser) then it will be allowed, provided that it complies with the other rules set within the site (which are, admittedly, not very many).

 

[Tachyon]

Honestly, if you're that upset over it, I'm sure you can find a more appropriate venue to showcase your art---Renderosity, Renderotica, ect. But to expect a non profit website to eat the cost/effort/ect. of having to accept art that doesn't adhere to their policies just because a few people are good at it, is just ridiculous.

Honestly, VCL doesn't allow fan art---even if credit is given and it's original (ie: I drew it), they don't allow it. Should I go demand they allow it? Or should I accept that it's their site, their money, their time/effort, and find another venue for my fan art?

Honestly, I really hate it when people make this argument about being a private and free site, because it's an attempt to stifle wholesome debate about what a community should strive for. It's a "while you're living under my roof you'll obey my rules" argument which, while true, doesn't help anything. Plus, it completely fails recognise significant user contributions to the site. I really wish people would stop using that argument.

 

[Zekumas]

The irony is that I'm a former 3D animator. =P I've never once said 3D isn't art. Not once.

I just said that people should use their own work, not something merely out of the box and/or downloaded directly from the web (e.g. the now notorious Krystal model). If people take the time to create something unique (even within the limitations of Poser) then it will be allowed, provided that it complies with the other rules set within the site (which are, admittedly, not very many).

Maybe the artist is using their own created models, that in some way resemble the ones that are created by the people WHO make the 3D render program....I mean come on there is only so much you can do with the humanoid form in a 3D setting until it begins to resemble another artists model.

 

[Kefan]

And we're still allowing Poser to, albeit with limitations. People can not use the default models and/or downloaded models. ... Make something unique.

Okay, that crossed the line into insulting.

What's more unique? Creating a brand new figure for one more buffalo or beaver shot, or trying to tell a story or make a point, even using stock characters?

I'm going to just put my work where my mouth is. I say that you can create a mood or make a point or set a scene or make a bad pun or even explore the boundaries between two and three dimensions and do it all in stock. If you really want to tell me that I'm just playing with "Mr Potatohead" when I'm at least trying to do something other than OMG BEWBZ! and OMG CAWK!, fine.

There's nothing stopping anyone from creating something unique even with pre-existing props and models, and there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the capabilities of the system if 'create an original model' is where you're drawing the line.

 

[janks]

ugh i registered just for this, hell.

Alright, i skimmed. Memes is the point of this post- It says you're no longer allowed to do it if it means altering an original piece yes? sure. Well, collaborations are allowed, and memes are posted with the owner of the piece's consent, much like with a collab, in which you do edit the original work.

It's like, one collaboration with several different people. If you ban a meme that the owner gives consent to do whatever you want with then why are collabs still allowed? I'm not saying ban collabs but just think the meme thing through. I know i'm prolly not the first to complain but it's kind of ridiculous. If the artist doesn't like the outcome of a meme then they shouldn't post it, and they should get the heat not the person, sheesh.

I'll most certainly stand behind unbanning the memes. On top of all of this they're fun.

It's like telling a kid to never run ever, kind of. What fun is walking? seriously.

 

[artonis]

But now I'd have to say Atonis... BS. You can use Poser and then become a 3D modeler. I started out with Poser and it got me very interested in 3D programs. To the point I only use Lightwave now. So, people using Poser can use that as a jumping off point to spark interest in 3D and later modeling. You can use Poser to get a feel for how models pose and how the link chains work. (Which was helpful to look at how the bones were laid out when I started rigging models over in Lightwave.) So, Poser is a tool just like any other tool. Saying that you can spend time with Poser and never get any better at modeling or anything else is sad closed minded thinking.

Well, I am GLAD you went on to work with lightwave, and started creating your own stuff, my beef was with people who just remain with Poser since it's easy, and they don't have to bother with learning it all.

It may be very well that it can be an entry point, but when I started 15 years ago with a renderer called Povray that only accepted text files resembling a programming language as input, I wanted as soon as possible to move to something less rigid and creatively limited, not to remain and churn out one image of a chrome sphere on a checkerboard after the other.

It's excuses and wild comparisons like "Poser is just like pencil and paper!" that drive me bonkers.

 

[Dragoneer]

Maybe the artist is using their own created models, that in some way resemble the ones that are created by the people WHO make the 3D render program....I mean come on there is only so much you can do with the humanoid form in a 3D setting until it begins to resemble another artists model.

We're well aware of the models that are not user created (e.g. Krystal) and the other models ripped out of Smash Brothers, etc.

Memes is the point of this post- It says you're no longer allowed to do it if it means altering an original piece yes?

Memes are still allowed provided you create something original for it (e.g. art, tangible content). If you're just adding text or copy/pasting a photo into the meme, then no, that wouldn't be allowed.

That's all we're saying.

If the meme is "draw yourself into this picture" then you're fine. If the meme is identifying what kind of squash you are and posting the JPG result then, uh, yeah, not fine. If the meme is "caption this!" then it's not fine.

 

[janks]

Memes are still allowed provided you create something original for it (e.g. art, tangible content). If you're just adding text or copy/pasting a photo into the meme, then no, that wouldn't be allowed.

That's all we're saying.

If the meme is "draw yourself into this picture" then you're fine. If the meme is identifying what kind of squash you are and posting the JPG result then, uh, yeah, not fine. If the meme is "caption this!" then it's not fine.

oh, kay then, i'm happy, thanks.

 

[Kitsune_86]

I'm fairly sure my one picture of a decorative fox plate is okay to have out in the gallery, its fairly good quality and has foxes on it.

Right?

 

[Kefan]

Well, I am GLAD you went on to work with lightwave, and started creating your own stuff, my beef was with people who just remain with Poser since it's easy, and they don't have to bother with learning it all.

Nonsense.

Following your logic, it's perfectly legitimate for me as a film photographer to tell someone who only uses digital that they're not really a photographer, they just take pictures because they're too lazy to learn anything more complicated than digital.

The question should not be "What tool do you use?" Artistically, the only really legitimate question is "What can you do with your chosen tool?" If you want to start down the path of defining who is and is not an artist based on their chosen medium rather than their output, what do you do when it becomes computer vs traditional? Inks vs pencils? Brush ink vs Sharpie? Camel-hair brush vs polyester brush?

 

[psistorm]

Nonsense.

Following your logic, it's perfectly legitimate for me as a film photographer to tell someone who only uses digital that they're not really a photographer, they just take pictures because they're too lazy to learn anything more complicated than digital.

The question should not be "What tool do you use?" Artistically, the only really legitimate question is "What can you do with your chosen tool?" If you want to start down the path of defining who is and is not an artist based on their chosen medium rather than their output, what do you do when it becomes computer vs traditional? Inks vs pencils? Brush ink vs Sharpie? Camel-hair brush vs polyester brush?

thats a very good point you made there.
its not the tool that matters, its the result. if someone takes a stock character and puts it into a random show-off pose, yes, that may be a questionable result and should maybe be put into scraps instead or not submitted. if someone goes through great lengths posing characters into long stories with dialogue and all that, that, in my eyes, isnt questionable at all.

on the other hand, I find it way more upsetting to see some of the stuff on front page. when you look on FA and on the front page, you see the picture of a toilet with contents best not disclosed and the comment "I did that!" on the picture, you really want to bust out the flamethrower and visit this guys house, no offense.

in the end, im clearly in favor of a re-evaluation. defining art is a touchy subject, but I belive that if creative work has been put to use, it should be
eligible to be posted in the gallery. people shouldnt discriminate others because of their choice of medium, because otherwise I could very well laugh at all those blender/bryce/whatever users because i use 3d fucking max and am thusly an artist, and they are not, for they dont use a complex/advanced enough tool or dont have the skills that I might have.

I hope people actually try and see the points being made here, because I can wholeheartedly agree. two artits Im watching would leave because of that, one of them a good friend, and I think the damage done to FA outweighs any possible benefit.

The only way I could understand this ruling is because of legal issues such as copyright. but that should be handled differently rather than place a complete ban on anything stock or not creative enough

 

[KristynLioness]

and must not contain rapidly flashing colors or images (e.g. “seizure inducing”).

Thank you so much for adding this to the policy. Flashing avatars are so obnoxious and my eyes always take awhile to recover from seeing one like that.

 

[artonis]

Are you people reading this thread at all? It is not about the tool you use. It's the fact that you use pre-generated content, not created by YOU.

And you keep using nonsensical comparisons.

Poser, is not a camera.
Poser, is not a brush.
Poser, is not a guitar.
Poser, is not a piece of paper.
Poser, is not a hunk of clay.

If I tell you, make a picture of a rose, can you do it, without going to some content library and downloading a rose someone else made?

Every artist using those other tools will be able to on his own. Even the musician might be able to create a song about a rose, or with similar qualities as a rose, without going to some website.

THAT, is the point. And with this I leave this discussion, cause I could actually draw instead.

 

[Thrivis]

Are you people reading this thread at all? It is not about the tool you use. It's the fact that you use pre-generated content, not created by YOU.

...

THIS.

That comparison that Poser is like a pencil - that was terrible.

For example, I draw something with a pencil. I make a neat little image on a piece of paper. The pencil is a means of manipulation for the content and is capable of creating the content. Poser can ONLY manipulate content that is ALREADY created. If I treated my pencil like Poser, I'd be taking a drawing someone else did and tooling around on it.

There simply isn't enough user created material with Poser if you're downloading models and posing them without any real editing of the model. Even if you're posing them really nicely, and it might be fantastic, it's still not enough user generated work that's actually being portrayed in the result image when you don't make the models or textures.

 

[Omny87]

About the photography rule pertaining to gore and violence- what about makeup? Can you post a picture of yourself covered in fake blood with a plastic knife in your head?

 

[krisCrash]

About the photography rule pertaining to gore and violence- what about makeup? Can you post a picture of yourself covered in fake blood with a plastic knife in your head?

Yes. This was answered already.

 

[kewlhotrod]

Actually, looking at his account... I don't know how he was even able to post to the forums at all because his account was set to "Users Awaiting E-mail Confirmation" which does not give posting access. He never confirmed his account. I set his user setting to "Registered User" in the system.

I do not censor/ban people simply for having an alternative viewpoint. You can go back and ask any of the posters in the Fractals thread, the forum Poser thread, etc. I have not now, nor ever, censored somebody for disagreeing with me. For violating FA rules? Yes. For disagreeing with me or expression a different viewpoint? No.

I'll personally vouch for this statement. Dragoneer and all of the other admins are very good on allowing others to express their differing opinions without throwing a huge hullabaloo and getting fired up over it.

 

[fuzzyroo]

The problem with adult suits is there is no way to tell who is in the suit, and more often than not, people use adult fursuiters as an excuse to post images containing their penis. Most of the suits are sexually usable suits, and that crosses the boundaries of legality I am not prepared to cross. Nor am I going to put the site or community at legal risk for mature fursuits.

i hate to say, but nearly most suits can be modded for sexual nature without displaying it, using reversed zippers, snaps, or wich ever...

so why don't just ban all suits, and you don't have to worry about weather or not it's mature ornot?

however, on a more serious note

what about suits that are not explicit in explicit poses?

also a question on flooding, are you talking about art styles? like if some one draws 10 pics and posts them after another, is that flooding?

or if it's some sort of photo shoot where there were several shots of a character or object in various poses or still lifes, not the same photo over and over but it's the same sceen but from different angles and composures?

are all photos that include people banned?

question on the mature nature of things, mostly about the adult fursuits: doesn't the "adult" label content filter sorta waive the "legal" mumble jumble, you have to be 18 or older to post adult art, you have to be 18 or older to view adult art. a fursuit should still be technically "Art" and not considered an "act" because it would lay in the textiles medium...

also, shouldn't you be able to tell who's in the suit, relative to proportion?

anyways, i'm not really trying to ruffle feathers, i'm just trying to get a better understanding on why things have felt they needed to change.... was their a lawsuit?

---EDIT---

I'm sorry, i have to add something here, that just struck me as odd...

holes put into plushies.... sextoys...and other things are prohibited because they might have something to do with sex, but are not currently in the act....

There was a law like that in Kansas 3 or so years ago that got slipped in with a childpornography act.. simply put, it deamed all sex toys, lingerie, certain shoes, leather garments, and a huge, huge list of things that were "sexually obscene". It was written in a way, that it wasn't noticed when the bill was passed. all of a sudden several sex shops were almost run out of business before some one noticed what was going on.

Long story short, it didn't hold up what so ever in court, and the horrifying subsidiary bill was amended and abolished, thankgod.

 

[fuzzyroo]

THIS.

That comparison that Poser is like a pencil - that was terrible.

For example, I draw something with a pencil. I make a neat little image on a piece of paper. The pencil is a means of manipulation for the content and is capable of creating the content. Poser can ONLY manipulate content that is ALREADY created. If I treated my pencil like Poser, I'd be taking a drawing someone else did and tooling around on it.

There simply isn't enough user created material with Poser if you're downloading models and posing them without any real editing of the model. Even if you're posing them really nicely, and it might be fantastic, it's still not enough user generated work that's actually being portrayed in the result image when you don't make the models or textures.

well, this argument is sorta up and down really...

you can use programs like blender, as well as other 3d rendering programs to create your vary own, object meshes. those are, in a sense, NOT pregenerated, but user generated as much how you put your pencil on paper, they put mouse pointer to screen. you create some conscious image out of nothing, then from there put it in poser. you generate your own pregeneration........ sooooo i don't really know what you would clasify what out of?

 

[Kefan]

There simply isn't enough user created material with Poser if you're downloading models and posing them without any real editing of the model. Even if you're posing them really nicely, and it might be fantastic, it's still not enough user generated work that's actually being portrayed in the result image when you don't make the models or textures.

In other words, the creativity of coming up with the scene doesn't count, and that a rendered scene, no matter how cleverly conceived and well executed, cannot be art simply because the creator posed existing objects rather than created them himself?

By that argument, a studio photographer isn't an artist. Actually, by that argument, *no* photographer is an artist, except those who draw directly on the paper with a laser pointer.

In the name of Ansel Adams, I object.

 

[yoshi000]

This is different from everyone is talking about but, why in the bloodly hell I can't post my own sprites?

 

[v-deus]

I will be über excited to see an FA that looks something like those rules.

 

[fuzzyroo]

Poser, is not a camera.

a camera is not a slab of stone awaiting the right tools to carve it.

Poser, is not a brush.

a brush can not give you a 760dpi resolution shot in a panoramic photo

Poser, is not a guitar.

a guitar isn't the dust of charcoal waiting to be smeared upon the scratch of parchment

Poser, is not a piece of paper.

paper is not Liquin, nor any other definition of medium

Poser, is not a hunk of clay.

a hunk of clay isn't... look these analogies of what one thing isn't another can go on for ever, cause really, they miss the point.

everything is a tool for the human consciousness to create something out of. The very definition of "what is art" and "what isn't art" has been going on for thousands and thousands of years, dating back to when history first started being recorded (cause it was first recorded, in art...hurray...). That is the question that this boils down too, who's subjectiveness calls what "art" and who's subjectiveness calls what "not art" (that boils down to in-group and out-group...but that's another psychological discussion for another time)

look, what some one says "isn't art" could be art for some one else, you just never know (like that one piece but an artist who i can't remember his name. It's an artist in the "real" world of art, not furries, who went into a hardware store, bought a urinal and called it "art". to me that has nothing to do with art as how i see it. for me art is taking something and adding, changing, or basically being human on it to leave your personal mark or style in some way. This guy sold a urinal he freshly purchased, for over $3mill. who am i to question what art is?)

poser, like anything.. and i mean anything else in this world, is a creative outlit for art... there are things, like anything else, that you need to mix more of to get it to be art. But think of it this way, pencils, paints, papers, burlap, canvasses, computer software, erasers, what ever it is you use had to originally come from some sort of discovery. Think back down to that discovery, think back to the founders of human expression and how they would have accidentally come across these things... just think about each and every utensil like that and get an appreciation for having them. Don't nock what ever someone uses, that you don't, just simply understand that it's a different tool, for a different job, for different expression, and appreciate that some one found it, rather then letting it float away for ever undiscovered.

 

[fuzzyroo]

In other words, the creativity of coming up with the scene doesn't count, and that a rendered scene, no matter how cleverly conceived and well executed, cannot be art simply because the creator posed existing objects rather than created them himself?

By that argument, a studio photographer isn't an artist. Actually, by that argument, *no* photographer is an artist, except those who draw directly on the paper with a laser pointer.

In the name of Ansel Adams, I object.

i vote for an amendment to this, all gesture drawings should be taken from this too.

any drawing of motion or an emotion of motion should be banned as well, so we can cover all forms of "motion" as it relates to art, please only post stills, thankyou