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Getting sick of games that treat me like I'm completely incompetent.

ADF

Member
Since when has zero challenge been a sales point? You have to allow the players to experience the lows of losing if they are going to enjoy the highs of winning; if you take away any chance of losing then where is the challenge? Where is the excitement?

Now as someone who grew up with Ghostbusters I am looking forward to the game; I'm not madly excited but I still look it up every now and then. Well today I watched some recently added videos and some of the stuff mentioned really deterred me from buying the game.

The game has jumped on the regenerative health bandwagon; so instead of trying to avoid getting hit or dealing with health pack resource management you just suck your thumb in the corner for a few seconds and you're good as new. If you do get taken out you don't actually die; you just sit there until one of your team mates gives you a tap and you are right back in the fight.

So what is the incentive to not get hurt? You get hurt you regenerate, you run out of health you get right back up a moment later. You cannot actually lose this game; there are no consequences to playing badly, you just stumble your way through the game until you inevitably complete it with varying levels of efficiency. When you are at that end game screen what are you supposed to feel? Pride? Achievement? Winning isn't a matter of doing well; it's just time.

Then when there is one part of the game where there could be consequences to playing badly; a financial damage metre that racks up the costs of destroying the environment, it does nothing! I thought the damage you did would deduct from your pay, giving you a reason to not totally destroy every building you are told to remove a ghost from, but no in a recent interview we are told the mayor foots the bill and it is just there for show.

What the hell is this? If I wanted an easy game I would turn the difficulty down, you can wail around like an idiot in this game and be just as successful as someone who actually puts effort in.

It's not just Ghostbusters either; loads of games are dumbing down the challenge these days. Games getting easier, simpler, quest compass, regenerative health, no death, no consequences crap like the developers are afraid I am going to throw a fit and refuse to buy their future releases unless I am perpetually rewarded. It's not like I demand every game to be hardcore but if you have something like Prey were you cannot actually lose then it takes away some of the enjoyment in the game. If I fuck up I deserve to fuck up; I don't want the game holding my hand.
 
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Urban Wolf

I can hat!
Wrong spot? Three Frags left is thattaway. But while i'm here. Well you see, the casual gamer, a new recently-discovered species of gamer, has revealed itself to have very deep pockets. Games are now being developed that in part or completely present themselves to the casual gaming demographic. To jump on this bandwagon, almost every developer is creating casual games, while making their "real" games a lot simpler, in hopes that the casual gamers might invest in the more "rounded" titles.

we've just been caught in the crossfire of a gaming revolution. Just play some retro titles for a while.
 
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Badballs

Beautiful Jerk
What you need, my disgruntled aquaintance, is a dose of goold old NETHACK.

It is rock solid and as addictive as sugar-coated crack.
I have been playing it for a year and still haven't seen the bottom.
These new-fangled games are all for pussies.
 
You want challenge?

Download "I wanna be the man"

You might end up in tears before you're done with it.
 

SparkOfMortality

Just checkin' in
Amen. I really miss the days of ninja gaiden. Challenging but fair and fun to play through. Then once you get so good you just breeze through, boot up the difficulty and remove that room for error. Gaming has bred such a crop of pussies nowadays with all of their failed attempts to copy halo that I feel like an elitist bastard when people rant and rave and have hissy fits at how impossible and unfair and stupid the new ninja gaiden is (the one that added a reactive healthbar and an easy mode for christs sake!). What the hell happened to health bars?!
 

Shiriko

Fat Jesus!
As technology and innovation goes up, challenge goes down, it seems. There are still some games that are challenging, but none anywhere near as much so as older games generally were. It's either the hardest mode, or easy street.
 

Badballs

Beautiful Jerk
You want challenge?

Download "I wanna be the man"

You might end up in tears before you're done with it.

Oh yeah. It doesn't get better than that.
I got up to Dracula, and simply could go no further.
That bloody homing apple! And the monologue every single time I lose.

Also the Ghosts and Goblins level can burn in hell.
 

ADF

Member
Some of you guys are looking at this like a black and white situation, just because I don't like this hand holding crap doesn't mean I want to tear my hair out in another game.

The balance between the two seems to have been completely forgotten in today's games; with most games leaning towards being easier. I mean since when was a health bar considered a hardcore game play element? Or *shock* dying when you run out of health? What is it about loading your last save/check point that developers decided was simply too much for today's gamer?
 

Ashkihyena

Back off man, I'm a scientist
You're just amazing ADF, but I can't say I'm surprised giving that you support that peice of trash called SecuRom.

From what I saw, I like the Ghostbusters game and its going to be great, whenever the hell it gets released, and as for paying for the damage, its not a surprise that they don't want you paying for damage since its going to be inevitable and you're destroying most everything in your path while trying to catch the ghost.
 

Stratelier

Well-Known Member
A lot of a game's challenge can come from its level design. LEGO Star Wars / LEGO Indiana Jones, games with unlimited lives and a weak penalty for dying, had plenty of their own challenges in their own ways, sometimes to the point of annoyance (such as why, in LSW2, your CPU allies can't kill anything).

I'd like to mention N as another example. Unlimited lives and checkpoints every five levels is no consolation for how damningly tough some of the levels actually are. Such as having to springboard out of a room with no less than four homing-missile launchers, or pierce through a layer of "bouncy" (more like spongy, actually) blocks while being targetted by two or more gauss turrets. Or the split-second timing required to avoid some of those floor-guards, navigate a minefield, fall down a long shaft without killing yourself upon impact. My keyboard has taken several poundings from sheer frustration, yet somehow I've made it through almost 300 levels of N. (200 to go...)
 

ADF

Member
You're just amazing ADF, but I can't say I'm surprised giving that you support that peice of trash called SecuRom.
It's not my fault the people in that thread have black and white vision; and cannot tell the difference between someone who understands why Securom is in use and an avid supporter. Regardless I don't see the relevance of that thread and my complaint that games are being made with no challenge whatsoever; unless those same B&W vision people cannot tell the difference between complaining about one aspect of a game and hating the entire thing.
 

Dragon-Commando

Razor, a living wrecking ball!
I think everyone in this thread needs to play the original doom all the way through on Ultra-violence, before they have any idea what the difference between hard and easy is.

If you have done so, and beat the game, awsome, you can call yourself a good gamer. If not, do it, you won't regret it.

Games are getting to the point that some actualy adjust as you play, so if you suck, they literaly "hold your hand" by turning down the difficulty. That takes the whole point out of playing it on "hard", because after getting killed, you load the game and it puts you on medium. so even if you start on hard, it's not going to be hard all the way through.

Thats not to say hard has to be retardedly hard, it just has to be difficult to survive, and actualy make you think. Instead of just running in and killing everything and going "DURRRrr, I'm going to throw a grenade at his feet, it'll be totaly awsome."

It should be "I have this grenade, how can I use it effectively? How can I survive long enough to make it to that MG thats got me pinned down?"

Doom on ultra-violence actualy made me think, and use cover. sometimes I was actualy afraid of death, because I had almost no ammo, low health, and the nearest med-kit or ammo was across the room where the monsters would definately be waiting.

Game developers have lost sight of what made games great in the first place, and that was the challenge, casual gamers can have an easy mode, but they shoulden't screw up the difficulty of hard mode just to fit the casual gamer.

I've been playing FPS games since the VERY FIRST, wolfenstien 3D, that game shaped the future of gaming, and it was insanely hard to play on the harder difficulties. It had 5 difficulty levels, and if you put it on easy, it was a casual game, if you put it on the middle setting, it was actualy challenging, if you put it on the highest, it was INSANE. I probably die in newer FPS games about once every 5 levels, unless you can't die. In Doom I died 5 times or more on a single level, before I started playing smart, which is what you should be doing anyway.
 

Ty Vulpine

Well-Known Member
The game has jumped on the regenerative health bandwagon; so instead of trying to avoid getting hit or dealing with health pack resource management you just suck your thumb in the corner for a few seconds and you're good as new.

That's why I hate Halo, and like games like GoldenEye and Perfect Dark.
 

AlexX

Calamity in Heaven
That's why I hate Halo, and like games like GoldenEye and Perfect Dark.
To be fair, I believe Halo 1 can be a nightmare on Legendary even with the regenerating health. I hear the same cannot be said for Halo 2 or 3, though...
 

Ashkihyena

Back off man, I'm a scientist
It's not my fault the people in that thread have black and white vision; and cannot tell the difference between someone who understands why Securom is in use and an avid supporter. Regardless I don't see the relevance of that thread and my complaint that games are being made with no challenge whatsoever; unless those same B&W vision people cannot tell the difference between complaining about one aspect of a game and hating the entire thing.

You know what, I don't think I'm going to change your mind on this, and I know that you're not going to change my mind at all, I just think that you're very wrong in the case of Ghostbusters.

And SecuRom is still the biggest piece of trash on the internet.
 
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ADF

Member
You know what, I don't think I'm going to change your mind on this, and I know that you're not going to change my mind at all, I just think that you're very wrong in the case of Ghostbusters.
In other words agree to disagree, I just wish I knew what exactly you disagreed with as you have been very vague on that so far; environment damage is the only thing you have been specific on.
 

Bambi

Joined 2008 - Returned 2022
Some of you guys are looking at this like a black and white situation, just because I don't like this hand holding crap doesn't mean I want to tear my hair out in another game.

Good point.

I think you can blame the dumbing of video games down on people dumbing themselves down. Just a thought. ^.-
 

Dragon-Commando

Razor, a living wrecking ball!
To be fair, I believe Halo 1 can be a nightmare on Legendary even with the regenerating health. I hear the same cannot be said for Halo 2 or 3, though...

I found them all to be quite easy on legendary, but thats just me.
The only part I didn't find easy was the library in 1, and it was still like a medium, not hard.
The first one on PC was actualy a bit harder on legendary, because some of the cover from the console version was missing it seems, and the AI seemed to be more accurate.

Halo just seems like a bunch of random ideas slaped together to me, and I didn't like it that much. Multiplayer in 3 is a noob fest at best unless you go with your friends on one box.

As for ghost busters, I had realy high hopes for it, but now I don't know. I think I like the one for sega genesis better actualy.
 
I think if you're gonna have regenerating health, have a health bar that reduce your max health so you're not at 100% when you're regenerating. That way, you're be more wary from taking hits because you don't want a max low health bar when you're facing a boss.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
Well, one game that's going to do away with that system is Far Cry 2, which promises to have such lovely things as bleeding, infection, and the need for good, proper medical treatment. Far Cry has always been very difficult (or at least, it's difficult with a 360 controller), and it's always had the health system. From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia said:
The game will be much more realistic with features such as the player having to use a map and compass to get around, and more life or death related features such as having to use tools to dig bullets out of the body and pat themselves down when on fire.Weapons will disintegrate over time, adding a grimer look to them, and eventually causing them to jam. Several species of African wildlife can be encountered in the game, and will be able to distract the enemy as well as make them aware of your presence [7]. All the large animals in the game will be grazing herbivores, featuring star turns from zebras, wildebeest, gazelle, buffalo, impala, Gemsbok and the like. The reason for this was said by one of the makers "The problem was, if we wanted to put predators into that ecosystem we would have to balance it to make sure the lions didn't eat all the gazelles and then all starve to death."

Honestly, the regeneration made sense in Halo's context, but I feel that the regen capacity should have lowered over time, or something to balance it out. Call of Duty is one example of human bullet sponges that really make no sense and have no purpose other than to make the game easier to play.
 
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Rhainor

Rawr.
Since when has zero challenge been a sales point? You have to allow the players to experience the lows of losing if they are going to enjoy the highs of winning; if you take away any chance of losing then where is the challenge? Where is the excitement?
Some people don't want a challenge.
 

kitetsu

pissy esoteric
Leave it to Treasure.

They put regeneration in paper and one of their mates would most likely to suggest loudly and very enthusiastically that all enemies do massive overall damage to the point that you have to rely on default superhuman player regeneration AND healing items to survive. ;)
 

Suntiger

Member
I think it's the gaming industry adjusting their demographic.

Lots of gamers are now at the age where they have a family with kids of their own.
Ergo, you can no longer devote 16 hours a day, or 8, 4, or even 2 hours.
Many doesn't have more than 30-60 minutes they can play on, and that's not always every day either.

However, because they have jobs and families they also usually have more money.
To be fair though, it's one thing to make a game suited to casual gamers and another to dumb it down.
You don't have to dumb it down to make it enjoyable for a casual gameplayer, there are other ways to adjust the gameplay.

What I'd like to see in future games is toggle options, not just adjusting the difficulty.

Compass that points the way to quest targets - toggle on off.
Regeneration - toggle on off.
Save anytime or only at savepoints.
Upon death, respawn where you died, at a respawn point or at the beginning of the level.
And so on.
AI for enemies is the same, but fewer spawns on 'Easy' compared to 'Hard'.

That way, it should be possible for both casual and dedicated gamers to enjoy the games.
So far, the developers that try to hook the casual gamers seem to have settled for just dumbing the games down but I think that will change as the concepts mature a bit.

And if not, we'll go into business ourselves and make a mint. ;)
 
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