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L.Rey

Lucas, the wanderer
Did someone say pride?
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Inafox

Member
Not sure what's to be proud of. Is it having no freedom to transition within 5-10 years else pay 20,000£+? Because that's what I'm facing as a trans person.
There's no amount of claiming righteousness that will speed up such processes under a bureaucratic system. The system is evil.
What trans and queer people need is rights not rainbow-themed parties for the privileged. Nor do we need the perpetuated idea that we're mentally ill and just need more "pride in self-esteem". When will the so called "pride month" phenomenon help people like me or those who get stoned to death in Saudi Arabia just for being LGBTQ+?
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
I still need to get that shirt at some point. So, this seems like a good time to ask: Is there no link to the merch shop in mainsite navigation, or am I just missing it? (Because, yanno, I'm me, I'm made of at least three derp.)

On the current UI it's located on the "My FA" dropdown, which is your user icon. It will be in a more prominent location in the upcoming new UI changes this summer. =3

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Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Not sure what's to be proud of. Is it having no freedom to transition within 5-10 years else pay 20,000£+? Because that's what I'm facing as a trans person.
There's no amount of claiming righteousness that will speed up such processes under a bureaucratic system. The system is evil.
What trans and queer people need is rights not rainbow-themed parties for the privileged. Nor do we need the perpetuated idea that we're mentally ill and just need more "pride in self-esteem". When will the so called "pride month" phenomenon help people like me or those who get stoned to death in Saudi Arabia just for being LGBTQ+?
So here's the thing.

Corporate hijacking aside, pride month is a celebration of protest. It's a nod to the folks who came before, those who told the told government to go stuff itself. It's anti-police. It's anti "the man." It's rebellion wearing a rainbow flag.

Pride was literally born from the Stonewall riots where police mercilessly beat gay folk for sheer crime of being gay. Change takes time. It's not instant, and sometimes you don't notice change as it moves subtle and flows with the ebb of time. It can be incremental. LGBT+ issues are just starting to become widely recognized. In fact, it was just starting to become normal ten years ago. Twenty years ago people were out, but it was still taboo. Back in the 90's it was still shunned (see Matthew Shepard) and people were still fighting for the right to exist and be recognized. I still have literal scars because of that. =/

And that's the reason people hold pride parades. It's to remind people we're here. We exist. We're a part of society just like everybody else. In fact, it's why people dress up in kink and march. It's to reference those who marched before, who were beaten, bludgeoned, and sent to the hospital for the sheer act of existing. For being different. For wanting to just be left alone and live their life without having to hide in the shadows not conforming to "the norm."

It's a month long fuck you to the man... and the occasionally fruity drink to celebrate.

Again, change takes time. A lot of time. In some instances we may never truly see change come to fruition, but... it happens. Gradually. Every year things get a little better, and the best we can do is celebrate who we are and why we are, and let the world know we're a part of it and that we're not going anywhere.

Show your colors. It may not matter today. It may not matter tomorrow. But some day it will as we fight for more universal acceptance. We can't change the world overnight, but we can make our impact on the world by being good ambassadors.
 

Inafox

Member
So here's the thing.

Corporate hijacking aside, pride month is a month long celebration of protest. It's a nod to the folks who came before, those who told the told government to go stuff itself. It's anti-police. It's anti "the man." It's rebellion wearing a rainbow flag.

Pride was literally born from the Stonewall riots where police mercilessly beat gay folk for sheer crime of being gay. Change takes time. It's not instant, and sometimes you don't notice change as it moves subtle and flows with the ebb of time. It can be incremental. LGBT+ issues are just starting to become widely recognized. In fact, it was just starting to become normal ten years ago. Twenty years ago people were out, but it was still taboo. Back in the 90's it was still shunned (see Matthew Shepard) and people were still fighting for the right to exist and be recognized. I still have literal scars because of that. =/

And that's the reason people hold pride parades. It's to remind people we're here. We exist. We're a part of society just like everybody else. In fact, it's why people dress up in kink and march. It's a nod to those that came before who were beaten, bludgeoned, and sent to the hospital for the sheer act of existing. For being different.

It's a month long fuck you to the man... and the occasionally fruity drink to celebrate.

Change takes time. A lot of time. In some instances we may never truly see change come to fruition, but... it happens. Gradually. Every year things get a little better, and the best we can do is celebrate who we are and why we are, and let the world know we're a part of it and that we're not going anywhere.

Show your colors. It may not matter today. It may not matter tomorrow. But some day it will as we fight for more universal acceptance. We can't change the world overnight, but we can make our impact on the world by being the best ambassadors we can be.
People can already walk around in kink but so many do not have even basic rights. Having kink isn't a LGBT thing, they've had ponyplay and BDSM fairs here for centuries. That's what I don't get about pride marches, why the emphasis on kink when it's supposed to be about LGBTQ+ rights and history. Meanwhile trans people are committing suicide left right and centre while pride parade people celebrate their kinks and get drunk in the streets. Those people are so depressed and poor it's virtually impossible to ever go to such vivacious parties.

Having a kink is a choice or result of personal preference, very few die or are rendered bankrupt for having a kink. Whereas when someone is a certain gender, race, sexuality or ethnicity they can't help who they are and are generally born that way yet receive problems they cannot avoid just by acting righteous, the system is bureaucratic. Pride month does nothing for those who are genuinely suffering, all it does is finance the large corporations that pay millions anti-LGBTQ politicians. If anything, LGBTQ+ laws are getting worse because pride is used as a negative political example as it has a great deal of demonstration of boisterousness and ideology rather than an attempt to give people basic rights.

30 years ago my grandparent was able to transition immediately (they too was trans) and yet I have had to wait excruciating lengths and still am, people are dying over this. I have no idea how that's supposed to be progress. It'd be much more better if instead of pride parades among the privileged we had hard-nail activism against the unjust system to protect those most vulnerable in society. Why should I socially applaud those who already have rights and live hedonistically when I don't even have basic rights or access to security or healthcare? No one supports trans people like me, nothing exists.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
People can already walk around in kink but so many do not have even basic rights. Having kink isn't a LGBT thing, they've had ponyplay and BDSM fairs here for centuries. That's what I don't get about pride marches, why the emphasis on kink when it's supposed to be about LGBTQ+ rights and history. Meanwhile trans people are committing suicide left right and centre while pride parade people celebrate their kinks and get drunk in the streets. Those people are so depressed and poor it's virtually impossible to ever go to such vivacious parties.

Having a kink is a choice or result of personal preference, very few die or are rendered bankrupt for having a kink. Whereas when someone is a certain gender, race, sexuality or ethnicity they can't help who they are and are generally born that way yet receive problems they cannot avoid just by acting righteous, the system is bureaucratic. Pride month does nothing for those who are genuinely suffering, all it does is finance the large corporations that pay millions anti-LGBTQ politicians. If anything, LGBTQ+ laws are getting worse because pride is used as a negative political example as it has a great deal of demonstration of boisterousness and ideology rather than an attempt to give people basic rights.

30 years ago my grandparent was able to transition immediately (they too was trans) and yet I have had to wait excruciating lengths and still am, people are dying over this. I have no idea how that's supposed to be progress. It'd be much more better if instead of pride parades among the privileged we had hard-nail activism against the unjust system to protect those most vulnerable in society. Why should I socially applaud those who already have rights and live hedonistically when I don't even have basic rights or access to security or healthcare? No one supports trans people like me, nothing exists.
That's the thing. Everybody has a different experience.

30 years ago I was beaten up at school for simply saying I didn't have an interest in women. I had a brick thrown at me for being from the "wrong place." You seem to be too focused on the kink thing. It's not about kink. It's about representation. It's about making yourself heard.

And yeah, in some places it's getting worse, but that's because people are trying to push their religion on other people and force people to conform to how they expect other people to be. And that's exactly the fight. That's the struggle. The moment you become content and stop fighting is the moment the people who want to oppress you start to raise their voices.

A perfect example of that is California. Police wanted to march in the pride parade and were told no, and they tossed a hissyfit that LGBT+ officers were were denied their "right" to march. But nobody was denying them personally, they were denying them marching in uniform because of Stonewall, because of the very origin that lead to pride to begin with.

It's a reason you have to know history, because knowing, learning, and understanding history is one of the best ways to fight against it. And it's not something always easy to do, but... it's one of those things.
 

Inafox

Member
That's the thing. Everybody has a different experience.

30 years ago I was beaten up at school for simply saying I didn't have an interest in women. I had a brick thrown at me for being from the "wrong place." You seem to be too focused on the kink thing. It's not about kink. It's about representation. It's about making yourself heard.

And yeah, in some places it's getting worse, but that's because people are trying to push their religion on other people and force people to conform to how they expect other people to be. And that's exactly the fight. That's the struggle. The moment you become content and stop fighting is the moment the people who want to oppress you start to raise their voices.

A perfect example of that is California. Police wanted to march in the pride parade and were told no, and they tossed a hissyfit that LGBT+ officers were were denied their "right" to march. But nobody was denying them personally, they were denying them because of Stonewall, because of the very origin that lead to pride to begin with.

It's a reason you have to know history, because knowing, learning, and understanding history is one of the best ways to fight against it. And it's not something always easy to do, but... it's one of those things.
When I was younger I was physically bullied and beaten for being queer at the age of 11 by people of a 11-14 age range. That has left me with many physical issues. But many of those kids had LGBTQ-friendly parents so it's not like they inherited some anti-LGBTQ ideology (though it sounds likely common in the USA). As I remember, kids will bully whichever kids doesn't seem to fit, so I'm not sure on the best resolve for that. A lot of kids will bully even without a reason as well, I think bullying itself should be tackled than just the bully's reasonings as kids aren't very logical.

Here it's definitely getting worse but also it's very secular here now. Most of the abuse I get in the form of transphobia comes from gender-critical cis women and conservative anti-trans LGB people (e.g. those who align with LGB Alliance). I rarely hear religion used as an argument, but indeed theocracies in other countries are a big issue for LGBTQ.

People's history will vary a lot by region. Stonewall was never that much a part of UK's LGBTQ culture until it was referenced by the Lib Dems in the very late 1980s.
A lot of LGBTQ history of other countries is ignored by the USA and UK, yet we're all expected to remember the USA's. Barbarity towards LGBTQ has always been global. I'd even say USA has one of the least barbaric history towards LGBTQ+. Likewise, there's just so many countries that haven't even got LGBTQ rights yet. It should be an international effort. I don't see people sending a lot of support out to the LGBTQ of countries with no LGBTQ rights, yet they're happy to do trade with those countries. Yet they invest in the rainbow-cladden corporations who have the opposite to their interests at heart. We need movements that allow LGBTQ people to be free and receive support but there's this overall "I'm alright, jack" attitude in the LGBTQ and global world. What we need is active progression.
 

Firuthi Dragovic

World Serpent, overly defensive
And yeah, in some places it's getting worse, but that's because people are trying to push their religion on other people and force people to conform to how they expect other people to be.
Their ignorance of their religions, Dragoneer.

I am quite aware how it is exceptionally poor form to correct the damn site director, but this is one part of the fight that really has to be addressed, and I will probably be spelling it out until the cows come home. If there's anything about a lot of the religion-pushing I've seen, it's how little these bigots understand their own damn literature.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Their ignorance of their religions, Dragoneer.

I am quite aware how it is exceptionally poor form to correct the damn site director, but this is one part of the fight that really has to be addressed, and I will probably be spelling it out until the cows come home. If there's anything about a lot of the religion-pushing I've seen, it's how little these bigots understand their own damn literature.
It's not poor form. There's nothing on these forums that say my opinion or thoughts on a subject are any more right or wrong than any other member's. But you're right, and that's the intent of what I was trying to say, I just chose to simplify it because my posts have a habit of ending up overly lengthy. I chose to word it how I did given how many varying denominations there are, even within one single religion. One person's view on a religion can vary as much as any group of people's preferred order at Starbucks. It's people pushing their perception of what their religion entails, because people by and large cherry pick the parts they like -vs- those they don't.
 

Inafox

Member
Their ignorance of their religions, Dragoneer.

I am quite aware how it is exceptionally poor form to correct the damn site director, but this is one part of the fight that really has to be addressed, and I will probably be spelling it out until the cows come home. If there's anything about a lot of the religion-pushing I've seen, it's how little these bigots understand their own damn literature.
I noticed that. Many jump to following medieval mis-translations that aren't even true to old scripture. In the case of Christianity and Islam it's often by ignoring the Oral Torah and Mishnah which so happens to state more than one sex. Then there's also the use of references to poor consent against gay people (e.g. misinterpreting Lot's case). Or monastic Levi ritual laws which you're not supposed to follow unless you're in a monastery. Protestancy and early Sunnah accepted the third gender by law as well as the seven Judaistic sexes, yet all kinds of post-byzantine churches and regional tafsir have pick and mix views on LGBTQ. They like to preach their own version of their religion, which is unfair on those of the same religions who are LGBTQ-friendly. Not just Abrahamic religion, though, I mean I've seen even Buddhists, Pagans and Hindus warp their religion to validate some form of homophobia or transphobia. In the end it's just people trying to create a false superior authority for their anti-LGBTQ views. It's theocracy and bigotry that's the issue, people tend to get their personal beliefs and religious interpretations mixed up and the irreligious can be equally anti-LGBTQ. Ideology certainly isn't limited to religion.
 

Attaman

"I say we forget this business and run."
I will point out that a large part of kink at Pride stuff[1] is specifically due to the fact that a lot of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation was built around criminalizing certain acts, presentations, et al under an understanding that it could be used to disproportionately strike out at the LGBTQ+ community (and / or behaviors that were considered 'unconventional', 'abnormal', or so-on). Women Are Not Supposed To Talk About Their Sex Life. Men are not supposed to be seen Like That. Neither is supposed to be in a role 'traditionally' reserved for the 'other' sex. Etcetera. Such taboos go beyond the usual "No talk of sex-ed in school, push abstinence until marriage" and specifically into "This is an indecency and moral threat and by sheer coincidence this will disproportionately target people who're LGBTQ+".

Furthermore, another part of it is that a lot of anti-LGBTQ+ stuff conflates "LGBTQ+" with "Kink" by default. We've seen it on here with people (on-forums and on-mainsite) arguing that any content which features LGBTQ+ people being explicitly LGBTQ+... including through things like "Holding hands" or "Kissing" or "Holding a Pride flag" should be put under Mature (if not Adult) because (by their own words) "It's kink related". People discuss not allowing discussion of matters of LGBTQ+ stuff in schools out of a "Think of the children" perspective that inextricably conflates "Admitting LGBTQ+ people exist" with "Openly talking about sexual content to minors". There is no "Separate kink from LGBTQ+" that LGBTQ+ populations / spaces can engage in that will ever satisfy them, as when "Mere existence" can and will be argued as "Shoving kinks down our throat" you might as well respond with "Then choke on it! : )".

[1]Note: kink at Pride stuff, for that matter, is heavily overblown by anti-LGBTQ+ groups specifically because they can use it for "Think of the Children" / "Not the right place" arguments. Most of the common pictures used for "Is this okay for somebody to see at Pride?" aren't even at general Pride events but specific kink-focused ones (sometimes not even LGBTQ+ specific events, using only a snapshot of a LGBTQ+ section), which just goes to show how far people will go to try twisting LGBTQ+'s image to conflate "LGBTQ+" with "Kinks / Inappropriate". Likewise how parades in many places are things planned out months in advance with road closures and detours et al so it's not like they're magically ambushing kids with flash parades.
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
I’m going to reiterate what I say pretty much any time Pride comes up: this is not about peacockery (though if you want to Mardi Gras it up knock yourself out ;)), it’s about pride as an antonym of shame. It’s about refusing to hide just to make those who would judge more comfortable.

On the current UI it's located on the "My FA" dropdown, which is your user icon. It will be in a more prominent location in the upcoming new UI changes this summer. =3

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Yeah, I’m just a derp then. Was looking in the wrong menu, and apparently skimmed past it when I did look in that one. XD Thanks.
(Footer link might be good in addition to the menu.)

Here it's definitely getting worse but also it's very secular here now. Most of the abuse I get in the form of transphobia comes from gender-critical cis women and conservative anti-trans LGB people (e.g. those who align with LGB Alliance). I rarely hear religion used as an argument, but indeed theocracies in other countries are a big issue for LGBTQ.
What I’ve seen of UK anti-trans sentiment is utterly bizarre. I’m not saying that as judgment on you, or anything, just an observation that trans exclusionism has gotten a foothold in the strangest places. Far as I know the whole “lesbians seceding from the LGBT community/movement” thing is predominantly UK-based as well. And what we have to realize is that this poison was at least partly introduced. Because it’s easier to divide and conquer. Because it’s easier to tear down the queer community if you can convince its members to turn on their own.

So I’m sorry you have to deal with that nonsense, and that you’re directly impacted by other people’s stick-up-their-arse-ness.
 

Zenoth

[redacted by staff]
Pride was literally born from the Stonewall riots where police mercilessly beat gay folk for sheer crime of being gay.
Close but not the full story, we can't forget that it was also a seedy mob run bar.
Time for the yearly sharing of our history from people that where there. Will always love this video and share it around this time every year.
 

Rimna

Well-Known Member
I've seen it mentioned a few times so here's my experience and take on it:

I absolutely despise huge corporations, but when they change their logos to a rainbow flag, it is perhaps the only good thing they do. This is maybe the only thing that positively affects the lives of people outside of their CEOs/Board of directors. It makes LGBT people recognized, because everyone uses products by those huge mega corporations. And so everybody can see the "rainbow flag".

I live in a country where teenagers are assaulted because they "look like lesbians" and men have been killed because they are suspected of being gay.

Over the last few years, especially with younger people, the opinions and views on LGBT people have kinda shifted from "we have to kill all fags" to "hmm, I mean I don't like them but as long as they don't do the lewd in public or they don't molest anyone, they're alright". And that is a good thing in my book. Of course there are still instances of aggression and violence against LGBT people but things are improving.

Change takes time. A long, long time. I'll take anything that helps - be it corporations pretending to acknowledge and care about people, or parades where people get drunk and listen to music and scream.
 

Smityyyy

Racc Man
I've seen it mentioned a few times so here's my experience and take on it:

I absolutely despise huge corporations, but when they change their logos to a rainbow flag, it is perhaps the only good thing they do. This is maybe the only thing that positively affects the lives of people outside of their CEOs/Board of directors. It makes LGBT people recognized, because everyone uses products by those huge mega corporations. And so everybody can see the "rainbow flag".

I live in a country where teenagers are assaulted because they "look like lesbians" and men have been killed because they are suspected of being gay.

Over the last few years, especially with younger people, the opinions and views on LGBT people have kinda shifted from "we have to kill all fags" to "hmm, I mean I don't like them but as long as they don't do the lewd in public or they don't molest anyone, they're alright". And that is a good thing in my book. Of course there are still instances of aggression and violence against LGBT people but things are improving.

Change takes time. A long, long time. I'll take anything that helps - be it corporations pretending to acknowledge and care about people, or parades where people get drunk and listen to music and scream.
Branching off of what you were saying on corporations and how this is one of the only good things they do…

When it comes to the topic of corporations and their empty pandering — the people who tend to oppose it under the guise of it being “empty” usually have an ulterior motive behind saying that. Now, don’t get me wrong, there are genuine and frustrated LGBT+ folks who are tired of being tossed around and monetized for brownie points, but a lot of the common talking points are obscuring an underlying message.

A lot of the people claiming they despise “rainbow capitalism” are only doing so because they’re homophobic or otherwise intolerant of LGBT. Corporations commit egregious acts everyday. They utilize slave labor, offer horribly low wages, exploit workers, destroy the environment, and constantly commit crimes. But the only time many people suddenly become “concerned” about corporations “using” a population for their profit, is magically during pride month. Coincidentally, these same people seem to have other rather… unsavory opinions on LGBT people. By criticizing the corporations for “using” LGBT people, they can openly oppose and complain about having to see LGBT messaging without backlash. And if pushed on it, they just default to “hey I’m not homophobic I’m just saying that none of these companies really care”

Don’t be fooled by the common talking points. It’s not that what they’re saying is totally wrong. It’s just that a lot of the people saying it have another reason as to WHY they’re saying it.
 

ben909

vaporeon character != mushroom characters
from previous post, i am sorry as i realised thst i fell into the trap of being anti pride month because of its corporate "look at me i am a good company, ingore my bad things because of flag" perception...
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
from previous post, i am sorry as i realised thst i fell into the trap of being anti pride month because of its corporate "look at me i am a good company, ingore my bad things because of flag" perception...
Like, even if, hypothetically, it made them a good company, good people (and other entities) can do bad things and aren’t above being held accountable for them. I get the frustration, and… I guess the bottom line is to some degree “it can be both.”

One thing that parades and surrounding festivities can accomplish even where acceptance is high is give people still in the closet a chance to engage and surround themselves with people like them, without sacrificing plausible deniability. Like, die-hard homophobes are probably going to judge even if they don’t automatically think you’re gay for going, but it’s a small step that could bring hope.

Long as people aren’t given grief for being cishet-passing I’m good.
 

Inafox

Member
What I’ve seen of UK anti-trans sentiment is utterly bizarre. I’m not saying that as judgment on you, or anything, just an observation that trans exclusionism has gotten a foothold in the strangest places. Far as I know the whole “lesbians seceding from the LGBT community/movement” thing is predominantly UK-based as well. And what we have to realize is that this poison was at least partly introduced. Because it’s easier to divide and conquer. Because it’s easier to tear down the queer community if you can convince its members to turn on their own.

So I’m sorry you have to deal with that nonsense, and that you’re directly impacted by other people’s stick-up-their-arse-ness.
Yep. It's often impossible to even go to the public bathroom in my country. It's where it gets the name "TERF Island". Like if I am to go to the women's bathroom, a GC will often say stuff like "you're a pervert", etc, even though I am male-attracted yet be totally ok with a AFAB LGBTQ person who is female-attracted. They never make any sense and I swear if they had fur you would see their hackles rise straight up whenever they spot any suspected trans women. That said, many TERFs who are not LGBTQ-friendly at all will also attack AFAB people if they appear too butch. Meanwhile, in the men's bathroom, it's very easy to get harassed, not so much because they're actually attracted to trans women per se but rather because they find it funny to oogle or talk dirty towards transwomen. A lot of trans people are leaving the UK, which is something I cannot afford. The same goes for shop or gym bathrooms, while their company brandishes rainbow-flags and hosts the bathrooms, there has been times when I've been forced by their staff to leave the women's bathroom and even the men's. They really don't care for LGBTQ+ rights with their rainbow flags, they just do it because they can make profit from us while LGBTQ don't get any compensation at all (unless you're very rich and can sue may be). They also do it because they don't want their own higher-up LGBTQ employees rising legal cases of exclusion. But as the customer? They only care for your money. Of course it's not just the bathroom that's the issue, I get ostracized in public, too, but I can least definitely tell you from my and many other's experiences, things get a lot worse for us in June because GCs get particularly hot-headed due to pride month, so if anything pride month is one of the hardest months for a lot of us. That definitely doesn't mean that pride month should stop, it just means that people should invest in helping LGBTQ people directly and not the corp-state bureaucracy that is persistently harming them.
 

Mambi

Fun loving kitty cat
Yep. It's often impossible to even go to the public bathroom in my country. It's where it gets the name "TERF Island". Like if I am to go to the women's bathroom, a GC will often say stuff like "you're a pervert", etc, even though I am male-attracted yet be totally ok with a AFAB LGBTQ person who is female-attracted. They never make any sense and I swear if they had fur you would see their hackles rise straight up whenever they spot any suspected trans women.

127009532_843239013129496_2656049930457802433_n.jpg
 

Inafox

Member
Yep like every toilet in every house, even if there's a family of like 8 of any gender, it's "ok" to share the toilet. But not public toilets? It's very strange and TERF go on about how feminists spent years fighting for female-only spaces when actually it's the patriarchy has forced it on women for the last couple of centuries. The idea that all men are sex predators and always heterosexual is also very homophobic as well yet that's the core TERF argument, that all men make women unsafe and that MtF are men denies that transwomen are women. Trans-males have similar prejudices, but as from a FtM friend's experience, it seems that often cis males don't care about trans-males in their bathroom so it's definitely that archaic "women are all vulnerable" attitude that does it, yet I don't see why a true feminist would berate women that way. Occasionally even intersex people get caught up in these gender presumptions, too. It'd be safer for trans, enby, intersex, etc, if spaces weren't gendered.

Sitting toilets already have cubicles here. I can sort of understand people not wanting to see others naked like with locker/shower rooms, but that's a sexuality rather than gender issue. Because cis homosexual people can see you in the same-sex changing rooms, yet a trans person isn't allowed to. When you're a transwoman you can easily receive both misogyny and misandry at the same time, because the women who say you're a guy act misandrous and hate AMAB in gendered spaces, and the women who say you're a girl but hate transgenderism are openly transmisogynist. It's not fair on enbies either, so yeah I totally agree that bathrooms should be genderless and that changing rooms should always have cubicles. A lot of religions as well like muslim and jain women value private per-person changing rooms, too as even being onlooked by other women is unpleasant to them. So it's way more than a gender issue. Each cubicle should be considered a different space, the containing room should be considered the hub. Like we can have cubicle/half-cubicle urinal and bathrooms, or optionally have a separate urinal room that's genderless for anyone who likes to "do it upright". I also don't get how they manage to get "cis male" toilet wardens to escort transwomen like me out of the female toilets, but are against the idea of securely guarded genderless bathrooms. It really is insane.

So if these corps are so LGBTQ+ like they make themselves out to be, they should sort out their bathrooms and stop hiring employees that make cutting comments to transwomen when we buy feminine products. Like a cis male won't even be attacked, they're just like "I guess it's for their gf", society is way too cis-heteronormative and assuming.
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
Yep. It's often impossible to even go to the public bathroom in my country. It's where it gets the name "TERF Island". Like if I am to go to the women's bathroom, a GC will often say stuff like "you're a pervert", etc, even though I am male-attracted yet be totally ok with a AFAB LGBTQ person who is female-attracted. They never make any sense and I swear if they had fur you would see their hackles rise straight up whenever they spot any suspected trans women. That said, many TERFs who are not LGBTQ-friendly at all will also attack AFAB people if they appear too butch. Meanwhile, in the men's bathroom, it's very easy to get harassed, not so much because they're actually attracted to trans women per se but rather because they find it funny to oogle or talk dirty towards transwomen.
Again, for what it's worth I'm so sorry you have been burdened with these people's issues. Any time I've seen someone who I suspect might be a transwoman in a public bathroom, I'm inwardly cheering for her, and this whole hate thing is so utterly asinine. Like... if you accept their implied claim that men are so predatory they'd crossdress and claim to identify as female to get into a women's bathroom, how does that make forcing transwomen to use the men's bathroom ethical? Wouldn't those oh-so-predatory men just opportunistically victimize the transwomen? Y'all aren't some kind of decoy to throw to the (imagined, because obviously the vast majority of men are decent and not going to assault anyone in bathrooms) wolves!

If they want to be hateful, they should keep it in their own heads and not take it out on others who never asked to be involved.

It's not like gender neutral bathrooms aren't better for a horde of reasons anyway - no more "ten person line for the ladies' room and no line for the men's" or vice versa. Any time I see female transphobes bitch about the importance of single-sex spaces, I wonder what makes them feel entitled to speak for all the women (or people they'd file as women, like yours truly) who don't mind. I'm not in the bathroom to socialize or to hide from penises, I'm there to fucking pee!
 
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