How can you be a democrat?

[Arshes Nei]

I would also like to point out, something concerning Bill Clinton. He lied, yes, he apologized too. Guess what else, why do people seem to make a big deal about private life? That's something you do and don't tell people!

Umm having ORAL in the OVAL office is NOT Private. XD

Last I recalled, I could get fired for having some nice hot and heavy office sex on my desk and making copies of my butt, while I'm doing the grind.

Also, someone else has to use that office after him so yeah I'd like to know if you're releasing certain fluids in the chair I may sit on next XD

 

[Wolf-Bone]

Last I recalled, I could get fired for having some nice hot and heavy office sex on my desk and making copies of my butt, while I'm doing the grind.

You can also get fired for having the wrong political bumper sticker on your car, smoking even if you don't do it at work, drinking even if you don't do it at work, having a blog, having provocative pics of yourself on the net, and probably the galleries of most FA users would be enough to get them canned. Hope everyone here that values their futures is doing a good job of preserving their online anonymity, btw.

Sorry for potentially derailing the thread here, but it's really disheartening how so many people still bitch about Bill Clinton keeping his job when other politicians have done much worse and stayed in office, yet remain apathetic to the reality that they close lose their jobs for things far more trivial. A trend which seems to be on the rise in the post-9/11 era, suspiciously.

 

[Arshes Nei]

I already discussed in past threads that people are getting googled as a way to do background checks. So this actually isn't lost on me.

I'm saying however, what Clinton did in the Oval office was NOT a private matter. Him having sex with Monica in the movie theater and he gets busted for it, that's more of a private matter. It also constitutes as sexual harassment in some cases if other interns could plead a case that this person was getting benefits (other than sex) that promoted her position. (haha no matter how you word that the context of if sounds bad)

 

[Sylvine]

Hm, well, to be fair... the way I see it, sure - Clinton should had been dismissed from his office for that whole action.

However, by that standards, Bush deserves getting straight into jail, ASAP, for actions that ultimately led to pointless deaths of thousands of people.

Personally, I don't think a BJ is such a big deal, but I understand how people were and are outraged by that incident - it was quite definitely neither the place for any practices of that nature, nor were the circumstances admirable - far from it. However, a war IS a big deal, and although I can accept the afghanistan war as being justified ( though I wince at the thought, since I'm a bit on the naive side and resent wars in general ), the one in Iraq is simply a crime.

Going to bed now... before I stop making any sense =)
~Sylv

 

[Grimfang]

Yup. If you look at international law, Bush would be in deep piss. Somehow, the US has the ability to exclude itself from international law though... for the sake of national security. -_-

 

[Arshes Nei]

Well Iraq wasn't following the resolutions, to me this was an eventuality that something was going to happen. However, the misinformation and changing of facts did not make me happy.

The way the war was handled, was really bad. You don't go into a place and make sure everyone can LOOT it afterwards. That's how the insurgents are getting weapons. The Army hospitals is another thing that is upsetting, however, this has been going on far longer than the war in Iraq. I think someone not protecting our borders, is grounds for immediate termination too, especially if you're saying we're trying to protect our country from future terrorism.

I'm not going to disagree that Bush's performance is poor and some of the things should have caused termination, or possibly jail time. The thing is I think Clinton should have been terminated too.

There needs to be better "pink slips" for people in office That's the biggest problem with government bureaucracy . If people were held accountable more quickly I'm sure they'd think twice about the amount of crap they pulled.

There is a situation where two US Border Patrol Agents are now in prison for shooting an illegal alien drug runner in the butt. The drug runner got immunity, one or two of the agents that testified against the border patrol lied. So now they're uncovering more evidence that the trial was a set up against the Border Patrol Agents doing their job.

However, we have Scooter Libby who was just convicted on obstruction of justice.

The question is, who will get the pardon first, the agents or Libby?

You know who I'd like to see

 

[Mega Wolf]

I'll admit we where lied to about the Iraq war, but it had to be done eventualy. I do agree with most that it was a big Fubar on Bush's part to lie about the reason for going into Iraq, if he had just said the real reason why, I would have appretiated it. And NO, I dont think he went in because Sadam was out to get his 'daddy' or some stupid BS like that, he probably just figured that out of all our potential problem countries we had on our hands (Iran, N. Korea, etc.), Iraq was the most vulnerable and easiest to take down. I often hear 'Well if he wanted to take out a terrorist nation, why not take out N. Korea?' Well thats because they are so friggan dug in and well fortified and ready for anything, that would like be trying to knock down a 8 foot thick wall with a rock.

 

[Wolf-Bone]

I already discussed in past threads that people are getting googled as a way to do background checks. So this actually isn't lost on me.

If it's not too much of a hassle for ya, could you direct me to them? I've been having a bit of an internal crisis / paranoia lately as to how I'm going to partake in the joys / lulz of furrydom and not get outed as a terrorist.

 

[sunshyne]

I'll say this: I hate Bush, I hate the way he's taken our country (in the areas that he DOES have control in, such as foreign and many domestic policies decided by the executive)... but I don't think he's evil. I just think he's dumb. I think he genuinely believes he is doing what's best for America and the world, but suffers from a massive inability to process pertinent information and look at two sides of an issue... Now Cheney, and other cabinet members, I have a serious character problem with. But I could say the same about so many politicians.

 

[Rostam The Grey]

There's one thing I find confusing about any sort of debate about the presidency, Democrat or Republican or whatever.

Blaming or crediting the economy to the president. The president has no authority over the economy, the stock market, or anything else like that. Nothing the president does dictates economic policy, that kind of thing is the business of Congress and businesses themselves. Pretty much the only effect the president can have on the economy is if he makes a comment on something and it causes stocks to fall, just as if someone like Alan Greenspan or the CEO of some huge corporation had said it. That's all the influence the president has on the economy, and it's ignorant and foolish to think otherwise.

So you don't think that if the President came up with a plan to decrease minimum wages it wouldn't affect the economy?

 

[Rostam The Grey]

Student loans have been *severely* reduced in how much the government doles out recently.

It does sort of depend on what you major in (a job with 20,000 buckaroos post-college) - I'm majoring in Anthropology and with a BA of Anth, you really can't do anything. I mean, you can flip burgers...make pizzas? As far as student loans, as well, you have to take into account the amount of interest that goes into loans. For people like myself who need a PhD to do anything they can get pretty up there, and the government after a point gives you very little. Under the Federal Pell Grant you can be authorized (I'm not sure about this anymore, but this is how it was when I was a freshman) for up to somewhere around 2,000 dollars. The rest depends on the state government (this usually can get up to [really, tops] about 5,000 dollars including federal work study), generally.

It was during Bush's latest term that federal university loans had the largest cut.

Yes, but my point was there is no excuse no one in the US cannot go to college unless they just can't get accepted. If they can't get accepted, there are plenty of jobs they can take that are non-minimum wage jobs. Sure it may not be what they want to do... But how many people actually want to work?

 

[Rostam The Grey]

Clinton should have been impeached when he went on TV and lied to everyone in the nation. That's my feeling on that. If Anyone, ANYONE that's a politician, including Bush, purposefully and intentionally lies to the public, they should be sent to jail... without passing go. I don't mean forget or misinformed, I mean lie.

 

[Grimfang]

Clinton should have been impeached when he went on TV and lied to everyone in the nation. That's my feeling on that. If Anyone, ANYONE that's a politician, including Bush, purposefully and intentionally lies to the public, they should be sent to jail... without passing go. I don't mean forget or misinformed, I mean lie.

Definitely. Unfortunately, it seems that issues just kind of fizzled about, because many times, Bush just doesn't acknowledge it. He can stand up in front of everyone, and give the same old spiel on all the 'evil' in the world, and isn't forced to respond to all those burning questions and statements we'd love for him to respond to/hear.

The answers he gives at press conferences just drives me crazy. If there is a question that he can't answer without it becoming a headline and negative PR, he'll ramble on for a minute and just get lost in a slightly relevant subject.

 

[Arshes Nei]

Something I thought was funny were the Democrats blasting Bush about the war.

(paraphrasing)

Democrat A: Bush needs to stop with his ever changing policies on the war!
Democrat B: Bush needs to realize he can no longer "Stay the course"

I mean come on, I agree about the war but...like if you're going to be upset and say things about Bush...like PICK A LANE.

Either he's inconsistent with the war or he's staying the course.

 

[Grimfang]

This is gonna turn into "What pisses you right the !@#$ off? (political version)"/

Yes. I also hate how it seems democrats are trying to seize the moment and oppose anything Bush does, in hopes of gaining the "Saves the day" title.

I hate a lot of just about everything both sides do, but at least Bush can't run rampant anymore and do whatever he wants.

Didn't the minimum wage raise get shot down? I dunno what ever happen to that... but it's been quite a few years since it has been raised. Last time it was raised, gas was a buck a gallon. I don't think we'll ever see it under 2 bucks again. So many other things I've seen get so much more expensive over the years... I think it is time for a raise for the little people :

 

[Sylvine]

Clinton should have been impeached when he went on TV and lied to everyone in the nation. That's my feeling on that. If Anyone, ANYONE that's a politician, including Bush, purposefully and intentionally lies to the public, they should be sent to jail... without passing go. I don't mean forget or misinformed, I mean lie.

Well...yeah. I guess I understand the notion here.

But what You need to understand is that to some people, hardcore republicans coming up with Clinton as an argument to defend Bush is like a slap in the face. I mean, compare

"I did not have sex with this woman."
to
"We know there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

Now, I'm no expert in this matter, but I was under the impression there is evidence out there that this was not misinformation, but that the people responsible for this mess damn well knew that what they said was not true. Also, as already stated, Clinton got himself a Blowjob in his Office. Bush started a war. Even if, in reverse, the latter should not be taken as an excuse to act as if Clinton didn't do anything wrong, I think it's clear both things are uncpomparable. Hell, if Clinton killed his Wife and ate her for dinner it would still be incomparable. War sits at the very top of the pile of possible crimes - it's hard to argue against that.

About the resoultions, Nei - You are right. I, too, am concerned with, for example, the possibility that Iran could have nukes. Then again, I'm also not happy about the fact that the USA have them. My point is that it's irrational to attack people because they pose a potential threat - that would be declaring war to the whole world, really.

~Sylv

 

[darkdoomer]

Republicans, Conservateurs, Liberals, Democrats, Nationalists... same shit for me.

i'm french. and seriously the country has never been worse since the republicans ares at the power. the last 12 years have been more catastrophic than the eighties with Mitterand.
no, seriously; Republicans ares the cancer that is slowly killing democracy.

 

[Grimfang]

I like you darkdoomer

So, do you feel that you have no political affiliation?

 

[Rostam The Grey]

Clinton should have been impeached when he went on TV and lied to everyone in the nation. That's my feeling on that. If Anyone, ANYONE that's a politician, including Bush, purposefully and intentionally lies to the public, they should be sent to jail... without passing go. I don't mean forget or misinformed, I mean lie.

Well...yeah. I guess I understand the notion here.

But what You need to understand is that to some people, hardcore republicans coming up with Clinton as an argument to defend Bush is like a slap in the face. I mean, compare

"I did not have sex with this woman."
to
"We know there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

Now, I'm no expert in this matter, but I was under the impression there is evidence out there that this was not misinformation, but that the people responsible for this mess damn well knew that what they said was not true. Also, as already stated, Clinton got himself a Blowjob in his Office. Bush started a war. Even if, in reverse, the latter should not be taken as an excuse to act as if Clinton didn't do anything wrong, I think it's clear both things are uncpomparable. Hell, if Clinton killed his Wife and ate her for dinner it would still be incomparable. War sits at the very top of the pile of possible crimes - it's hard to argue against that.

About the resoultions, Nei - You are right. I, too, am concerned with, for example, the possibility that Iran could have nukes. Then again, I'm also not happy about the fact that the USA have them. My point is that it's irrational to attack people because they pose a potential threat - that would be declaring war to the whole world, really.

~Sylv

I wasn't trying to use a straw man. I was mearly stating that any politician, Bush included, that is in office and lies should be locked up. A lie is a lie, there are no levels of lying. There are levels of criminal activity, but a lie is a lie. So, lets say for arguments sake that Bush did lie. They both would be equally guilty of lying. Clinton commited adultery which is a crime. But Bush took us to war... I don't know that I consider this a crime. But I also don't know people in Iraq, or their situation before and afterwards. Even if he lied to convince people to go to war, but it was to remove an evil man from power? He's still guilty of a lie, but I'm not convinced the war is a criminal activity. Now if he went to war simply to gain land, or oil, that'd be different. I don't see that we're getting anything out of this war other than installing a democracy and removing a dictator that constantly threatened the US. I think most people's biggest problem with the war is that it doesn't appear that we are getting anything out of it and most Americans today are selfish. But if we leave, I think the people that are currently instigating attacks in Iraq would resume activities in the US. Not to mention we'd leave Iraq helpless for Iran to take over and in chaos, causing more people to hate us.

 

[Rostam The Grey]

Republicans, Conservateurs, Liberals, Democrats, Nationalists... same shit for me.

i'm french. and seriously the country has never been worse since the republicans ares at the power. the last 12 years have been more catastrophic than the eighties with Mitterand.
no, seriously; Republicans ares the cancer that is slowly killing democracy.

replace Republicans with Politicians and I'll agree.

i.e. Politicians ares the cancer that is slowly killing democracy.

 

[darkdoomer]

Clinton should have been impeached when he went on TV and lied to everyone in the nation. That's my feeling on that. If Anyone, ANYONE that's a politician, including Bush, purposefully and intentionally lies to the public, they should be sent to jail... without passing go. I don't mean forget or misinformed, I mean lie.

Well...yeah. I guess I understand the notion here.

But what You need to understand is that to some people, hardcore republicans coming up with Clinton as an argument to defend Bush is like a slap in the face. I mean, compare

"I did not have sex with this woman."
to
"We know there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

Now, I'm no expert in this matter, but I was under the impression there is evidence out there that this was not misinformation, but that the people responsible for this mess damn well knew that what they said was not true. Also, as already stated, Clinton got himself a Blowjob in his Office. Bush started a war. Even if, in reverse, the latter should not be taken as an excuse to act as if Clinton didn't do anything wrong, I think it's clear both things are uncpomparable. Hell, if Clinton killed his Wife and ate her for dinner it would still be incomparable. War sits at the very top of the pile of possible crimes - it's hard to argue against that.

About the resoultions, Nei - You are right. I, too, am concerned with, for example, the possibility that Iran could have nukes. Then again, I'm also not happy about the fact that the USA have them. My point is that it's irrational to attack people because they pose a potential threat - that would be declaring war to the whole world, really.

~Sylv

I wasn't trying to use a straw man. I was mearly stating that any politician, Bush included, that is in office and lies should be locked up. A lie is a lie, there are no levels of lying. There are levels of criminal activity, but a lie is a lie. So, lets say for arguments sake that Bush did lie. They both would be equally guilty of lying. Clinton commited adultery which is a crime. But Bush took us to war... I don't know that I consider this a crime. But I also don't know people in Iraq, or their situation before and afterwards. Even if he lied to convince people to go to war, but it was to remove an evil man from power? He's still guilty of a lie, but I'm not convinced the war is a criminal activity. Now if he went to war simply to gain land, or oil, that'd be different. I don't see that we're getting anything out of this war other than installing a democracy and removing a dictator that constantly threatened the US. I think most people's biggest problem with the war is that it doesn't appear that we are getting anything out of it and most Americans today are selfish. But if we leave, I think the people that are currently instigating attacks in Iraq would resume activities in the US. Not to mention we'd leave Iraq helpless for Iran to take over and in chaos, causing more people to hate us.

come on, what is worse ? getting a blowjob or invading a country ?

( haha! i'm using CommonSenseâ„¢ )

So, do you feel that you have no political affiliation?

well; not anymore. i think we've came to a point where politics aint the answer.

 

[Rostam The Grey]

come on, what is worse ? getting a blowjob or invading a country ?

( haha! i'm using CommonSenseâ„¢ )

But that wasn't what it was? It was adultery or liberating a country. Invasion implies taking it over. And I'd rather get a blow job then commit adultery.

Which is worse, getting a blowjob or invading? Invading of course.
Which is worse, commiting adultery or liberating a country? Adultery of course.

 

[Grimfang]

come on, what is worse ? getting a blowjob or invading a country ?

( haha! i'm using CommonSenseâ„¢ )

But that wasn't what it was? It was adultery or liberating a country. Invasion implies taking it over. And I'd rather get a blow job then commit adultery.

Which is worse, getting a blowjob or invading? Invading of course.
Which is worse, commiting adultery or liberating a country? Adultery of course.

Now it gets ugly.

Which is worse?

We have to consider both possibilities in their entireties.

Adultery. Ok. So a man had sex with a woman, cheating on his wife.

Invading/Liberating. American death toll is about 3,000. Iraqi deaths range from like 100,000 - 655,000 according to various estimates a while ago. Destabilized region, which is having a massive impact on politics and tensions around the world. Soiled American reputation.

((I saw a list of polls taken from citizens of different countries around the world from before and after the war in Iraq. Afterwards, there was an EXTREME drop in positive views towards Americans. Many feared America would invade their country))

I think I'd rather have an adulterer than an unjust, war-mongering president. He was just finishing up what daddy started.. :

 

[Rostam The Grey]

Now it gets ugly.

Which is worse?

We have to consider both possibilities in their entireties.

Adultery. Ok. So a man had sex with a woman, cheating on his wife.

Invading/Liberating. American death toll is about 3,000. Iraqi deaths range from like 100,000 - 655,000 according to various estimates a while ago. Destabilized region, which is having a massive impact on politics and tensions around the world. Soiled American reputation.

((I saw a list of polls taken from citizens of different countries around the world from before and after the war in Iraq. Afterwards, there was an EXTREME drop in positive views towards Americans. Many feared America would invade their country))

I think I'd rather have an adulterer than an unjust, war-mongering president. He was just finishing up what daddy started.. :

Well, this goes back to what I said before. I can't really judge what has been accomplished in Iraq. You can't really judge based on the media. Just as you can't trust the death toll that the media has released. You'd have to ask the soldiers and iraqi citizens about what was accomplished in the liberation. I say liberation and not invasion. The definition of invade is to march aggressively into another's territory by military force for the purposes of conquest and occupation. That's not what we did, we removed the existing government and then helped them to start a new government that was a democracy. Was this right? I don't know. It certainly didn't look like it helped immediately afterwords when everything was complete chaos. It almost seemed like they needed a dictator to keep order. But now everything appears to have calmed down except for the terrorist, and even these are slowing down. I know that I personally would not want my rights refused by a dictator. I would not want to live in fear that me or my family could be killed for stupid reasons like disagreeing with the government, or being born the wrong religion... I would welcome being liberated, even if it meant a period of instability. But on the other hand, I do know adultery is wrong. And he obvious commited adultery and then lied about it.

 

[nobuyuki]

Republicans, Conservateurs, Liberals, Democrats, Nationalists... same shit for me.

i'm french. and seriously the country has never been worse since the republicans ares at the power. the last 12 years have been more catastrophic than the eighties with Mitterand.
no, seriously; Republicans ares the cancer that is slowly killing democracy.

replace Republicans with Politicians and I'll agree.

i.e. Politicians ares the cancer that is slowly killing democracy.

Here comes a history lesson. France is now at its 5th republic since the french revolution, and it has a serious love-hate relationship with authoritarians, fascism, and other right-wing things. The distinction to be made here is what kind of Republican (capital R) we're talking about. Even moreso than the US, ever since De Gaulle, france has had very strong executive power and I wouldn't blame anyone in that country who seriously distrusts putting all that power in the hands of one person. Republicans in france are authoritarian -- Since fascist is a politically-incorrect word now and days, I'd say they're not unlike a US Neoconservative.

Furthermore to that point, fascism is a major point that scares the bejeezus out of me regarding the US Republican party. It would probably never get to that extreme a point, but there's still a large number of people who vote republican on the premise of "small government and less taxes" when what they're actually getting is rammed in the ass by the neocons who actually want more executive power and do a "tax dance" by shuffling the numbers around a bit then spinning it like it will help the economy. Do we really want to have as much political instability as France? Yes, since De Gaulle I doubt anyone has considered their system as illegitimate, but in essentially the same period of time since the American revolution, France has had FIVE republics and several more authoritarian regimes. This is enough for me to set my own opinion to the idea that a strong executive (a neocon/big "R" Republican mainstay) are the source of a lot of their problems. Not unlike admins on the internet (yes I know, silly comparison), the best ones are on the honor system to only use those sweeping powers when it is absolutely necessary. Otherwise trust in the entire system breaks down.

Finally:

I just want to throw out there that I like the government out of my business, and I like less taxes, but there will always be taxes and there will always be big brother breathing down your neck to some extent. So, it really is just a matter of your opinion on who's going to screw you more. And in a Winner-take-All system like the US, that means everyone wants a winner -- so they either vote for one of two parties. Many people will not so much vote FOR a party as they will AGAINST what the other party stands for or try to punish them for doing a piss poor job.


P.S. Liberating a country is an ex-post facto justification -- I'd say adultery is a moral sin and not necessarily an ethical one, and let's not forget all of our money they wasted "liberating" iraq. But shit, I shouldn't be getting baited into another straw man argument and chucking back red herrings, should I :V

Anyone ever notice how much politics is about trying to sneak in logical fallacies? Spin is great, isn't it? </sarcasm>