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How many furries know what Bitcoin is?

Do you know what Bitcoin is?

  • Yes.

  • I have heard of it but don't really know much.

  • Isn't it like, a dark web thing?

  • Never heard of it.


Results are only viewable after voting.

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
The Central African Republic recently adopted bitcoin as an official currency.
About 4% of their population actually has internet access, so its pick-up among normal people may not be too high.
Mobile telephone use is currently low in the country but has been increasing.
Currently Russian mercenaries are fighting a war in the Republic against rebel forces, in exchange for Russian access to mineral deposits.
 

SirRob

Well-Known Member
The Central African Republic recently adopted bitcoin as an official currency.
About 4% of their population actually has internet access, so its pick-up among normal people may not be too high.
Mobile telephone use is currently low in the country but has been increasing.
Currently Russian mercenaries are fighting a war in the Republic against rebel forces, in exchange for Russian access to mineral deposits.
If bitcoin is something they can utilize to get ahead economically, then more power to them, I guess. I don't personally follow that stuff, although I'm not in a dire financial situation either (really I just went into the topic for your post, rather than the topic itself). Are there other African countries going through the same thing with Russia, or just the Republic? It's honestly a horrible situation, and I know Russia's not the only one responsible-- all the major powers try and take advantage of Africa. Are those rebel forces a group that I should be rooting for, or are they dangerous extremists, which typically seems to be the case in these sorts of struggles?
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
If bitcoin is something they can utilize to get ahead economically, then more power to them, I guess. I don't personally follow that stuff, although I'm not in a dire financial situation either (really I just went into the topic for your post, rather than the topic itself). Are there other African countries going through the same thing with Russia, or just the Republic? It's honestly a horrible situation, and I know Russia's not the only one responsible-- all the major powers try and take advantage of Africa. Are those rebel forces a group that I should be rooting for, or are they dangerous extremists, which typically seems to be the case in these sorts of struggles?

My guess is that Bitcoin will be used to facilitate under-the-table payments to Russia.
Alternatively, the best interpretation is that it is being used to provide pressure for an alternative to the Central African Franc, which is a problematic currency for some countries because of its colonial associations.

The Wagner mercenary group is involved in conflicts in numerous African countries, where it is widely accused of crimes against humanity such as killing civilians and sexual torture.
So I would probably say we shouldn't support the Wagner group.

I can't really comment on the internal politics of CAR though.
 

SirRob

Well-Known Member
My guess is that Bitcoin will be used to facilitate under-the-table payments to Russia.
Alternatively, the best interpretation is that it is being used to provide pressure for an alternative to the Central African Franc, which is a problematic currency for some countries because of its colonial associations.

The Wagner mercenary group is involved in conflicts in numerous African countries, where it is widely accused of crimes against humanity such as killing civilians and sexual torture.
So I would probably say we shouldn't support the Wagner group.

I can't really comment on the internal politics of CAR though.
Makes sense regarding the under-the-table payments, although the pressure on the country's primary currency is over my head... Trying to explain it to me would require multiple years worth of lectures given my complete lack of knowledge on global history and politics, so it probably isn't worth getting into. I'm certainly interested enough to learn more, though.

I knew it, that always seems to be the case, doesn't it? The only people willing to fight are the crazy people who are just as bad. And why wouldn't that be the case? The sane people actually have self-preservation in mind. Of course, I'm just generalizing but... it's happened time and time again since I've started following this sort of stuff on the news.
 

ConorHyena

From out of the rain.
The Wagner group are propably worse than your average rebel/insurgent forces tbh.
 

SirRob

Well-Known Member
Okay, I did a skim of their Wikipedia article and I think I was mistaken; the Wagner Group is the Russian mercenaries, while the rebels are a different group. Is that correct? The article is very long... I guess it's a group I should've already been aware of
 

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
False. Deep Capture data comes from legitimate sources, including SEC, and the libel case came from things Patrick Byrne himself said, not from the site. If there were libel claims on that site, they would be gone by now, so you can be sure you're only reading facts.
You're mistaken because, aside from the fact that website promotes "deep state" conspiracy theories which you seem to believe, Deep Capture actually published the material that was cited and contentious in the cases.

In part to publicize his thoughts on naked short selling, Byrne founded the website "Deep Capture". In October 2011, Vancouver businessman Altaf Nazerali sued Byrne for libel and defamation in the Supreme Court of British Columbia for articles published on the website. The articles described Nazerali as being involved with "Osama Bin Laden's favorite financier," and that he worked with criminal syndicates including the Colombian drug cartel, the Russian mafia, and various "jihadi terrorist groups" including al Qaeda's Golden Chain. Deep Capture also accused Nazerali of "delivering weapons to war zones in Africa and to the mujahedeen in Afghanistan," of orchestrating "small-time 'pump and dump' scams… [and] bust-outs, death spiral finance and naked short selling," and of carrying out dirty work for "a Pakistani ISI asset" who "works for the Iranian regime." In May 2016, the Court found that the allegations in the Deep Capture articles were libelous and defamatory; Nazerali was awarded $1.2 million in damages, including $500,000 in aggravated damages, $250,000 in punitive damages and $55,000 in special damages.[33] Byrne was permanently banned from publishing these accusations. The Court found Byrne, his employee Mark Mitchell, and Deep Capture "engaged in a calculated and ruthless campaign to inflict as much damage on Mr. Nazerali's reputation as they could achieve." The 102-page decision said "It is clear on the evidence that their intention was to conduct a vendetta in which the truth about Mr. Nazerali himself was of no consequence."[34][35][36]

The judgment was upheld on appeal in August 2018.[37][38][39][40]


This isn't a reliable source of information.

Exchanges are not wallets. They hold your coins. With wallets you hold your coins.
I clearly mentioned exchanges and wallet operators, examples of which are already complying with the new FinCEN guidance.

Tracking crypto on blockchains has nothing to do with KYC.
The government has other methods besides that, but it is relevant to the enforcement of KYC regulations, you had asked about.

They will do business if the law is from another country. I don't give a crap about doing business with someone in another country where doing business with an American is illegal, or doing it breaks some other unethical law. If I want to help people there, I'm indifferent about breaking their laws that don't apply to me. Such as by buying software services from women software developers in a country where women aren't allowed to work or have bank accounts. And yes I'm a business too. Stop confusing "legal" with "right/ethical."
You make the generous assumption you wouldn't prosecuted for breaking those laws here or be extradited to that country because we have a extradition agreement with them. Furthermore, with China, India, the EU, the US, Japan, and Australia adopting similar regulations, that includes most of the would-be big markets for Bitcoin and the economies where the most coveted possible Bitcoin investors are. It would be hard to do business that evades these regulations. Furthermore, because of the war in Ukraine, most of these countries are coordinating on their cryptocurrency regulations and making sure they overlap.

As a side note, you do realize you're admitting you'd willfully break the law if it suited your interests?
 

ConorHyena

From out of the rain.
Okay, I did a skim of their Wikipedia article and I think I was mistaken; the Wagner Group is the Russian mercenaries, while the rebels are a different group. Is that correct? The article is very long... I guess it's a group I should've already been aware of
They are essentially putin's private army, yeh.
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
You're mistaken because, aside from the fact that website promotes "deep state" conspiracy theories which you seem to believe, Deep Capture actually published the material that was cited and contentious in the cases.


Oh, even better, the stuff that was libelous didn't even have anything to do with the actual data on the markets and short selling. So, like I said, you can ignore his opinions and mistakes he makes, and just read the pore dada sourced from SEC and brokerages to come to your own conclusion.


I clearly mentioned exchanges and wallet operators, examples of which are already complying with the new FinCEN guidance.
No, you clearly mentioned wallet developers, suggesting that if a company created a non-custodial wallet where the user is in control of their own money, that the wallet developer would somehow still be responsible for KYCing the money they have no knowledge or control over. Moving goal posts to "operators" where wallet developers control the wallet somehow.

I really don't get why you can't understand that if you don't control someone's money, you're not responsible for what they do with it.

The government has other methods besides that, but it is relevant to the enforcement of KYC regulations, you had asked about.
How is tracking funds relevant to KYC regulations? You know that the public blockchain doesn't show anything about the kind of wallet used, right? It's just transactions with nothing attached to them.

You make the generous assumption you wouldn't prosecuted for breaking those laws here or be extradited to that country because we have a extradition agreement with them.
It's not an assumption, no. I don't have to assume that US is going to fine me for doing something legal in US, or allow another country to extradite me for doing something legal in US. Reminder, it's legal to pay women in US.

Furthermore, with China, India, the EU, the US, Japan, and Australia adopting similar regulations,
They're not adopting regulations making it illegal for women to have bank accounts or get paid. They're not adopting regulations making it illegal to send money to family. They're not adopting regulations making it illegal to fund groups that fight for human rights (well maybe China is).
If you mean general Bitcoin regulations, I don't know how much bigger and bolder I can make this so you'll get it but BITCOIN IS ALREADY SUBJECT TO ALL THE SAME REGULATIONS AS ALL BANKING AND FINANCE. Bitcoin is NOT unregulated.
If you mean regulations requiring KYC on non-custodial wallets, again, that's impossible to do. It's like regulations that require gravity to be half as strong or that 2+2 be equal 5. You can pass all the regulations you want, but it's just impossible to do and to enforce. You've yet to explain how a wallet would do that. How would you force Microsoft to regulate notepad.exe to force it to collect KYC on people using it to send Bitcoin transactions?

Furthermore, because of the war in Ukraine, most of these countries are coordinating on their cryptocurrency regulations and making sure they overlap.
Regulations already exist, and they already overlap with them being decades old banking and finance regulations.

As a side note, you do realize you're admitting you'd willfully break the law if it suited your interests?
Of course I would. By the same reasoning you're admitting you would turn in a Jewish family to the SS just because the law told you to. Enlightened intelligent people don't follow laws blindly.
 

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
Oh, even better, the stuff that was libelous didn't even have anything to do with the actual data on the markets and short selling. So, like I said, you can ignore his opinions and mistakes he makes, and just read the pore dada sourced from SEC and brokerages to come to your own conclusion.
And you feel that a site that published libelous information is going to accurately report on conspiracy theories regarding the SEC and the deep state apparently.


No, you clearly mentioned wallet developers, suggesting that if a company created a non-custodial wallet where the user is in control of their own money, that the wallet developer would somehow still be responsible for KYCing the money they have no knowledge or control over. Moving goal posts to "operators" where wallet developers control the wallet somehow.

I really don't get why you can't understand that if you don't control someone's money, you're not responsible for what they do with it.
No, I clearly mentioned multiple times that under the new FinCEN guidance that exchanges, custodial wallets operations, and non-custodial wallet operations are considered money transmitters and therefore subject to KYC regulations.


How is tracking funds relevant to KYC regulations? You know that the public blockchain doesn't show anything about the kind of wallet used, right? It's just transactions with nothing attached to them.
Tracking funds and evidence provided by the blockchain would obviously be essential to any enforcement of KYC regulations.


How would you force Microsoft to regulate notepad.exe to force it to collect KYC on people using it to send Bitcoin transactions?
You would obviously have the developer of the app impose KYC verification in their app, rather than hold Microsoft, which only made the program they are using to make the app, responsible.


Of course I would. By the same reasoning you're admitting you would turn in a Jewish family to the SS just because the law told you to. Enlightened intelligent people don't follow laws blindly.
This is stupid and offensive. There is clear difference between following financial laws and abetting in the Holocaust.
 

Kope

Artist?
It’s what the rich use for tax evasion now right?
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
And you feel that a site that published libelous information is going to accurately report on conspiracy theories regarding the SEC and the deep state apparently.
Yes if they're not conspiracy theories. You're free to dismiss whatever you don't agree with as conspiracy. As I said I know people personally who corroborate this. Not just Patrick.

No, I clearly mentioned multiple times that under the new FinCEN guidance that ... non-custodial wallet operations are considered money transmitters and therefore subject to KYC regulations.
They're not. And it's impossible for them to follow those regulations. We can keep going in circles, but that fact still remains.


Tracking funds and evidence provided by the blockchain would obviously be essential to any enforcement of KYC regulations.
... Okay, but tracking funds doesn't tell you what wallet was used to move those funds, and in most cases who even sent those funds. Tracking funds on the Bitcoin blockchain is generally very difficult to impossible anyway, outside of a few hops from an exchange.



You would obviously have the developer of the app impose KYC verification in their app, rather than hold Microsoft, which only made the program they are using to make the app, responsible.
Right, so you would hold Microsoft, the developer of notepad.exe, responsible for collecting KYC on notepad.exe users, and would have them build KYC verification into notepad.exe, because users can use that app to type up and send a Bitcoin transaction. Actually I guess every developer of a program that can write up text files would be required to impose KYC verification in their text editor in case their users decide to use it to send Bitcoin. How do you not see the absurdity of this?

This is stupid and offensive. There is clear difference between following financial laws and abetting in the Holocaust.
No there isn't. One is just a law you like and the other is one you don't. You're already against me breaking laws such as paying women for work in countries where it's illegal for them to work, or me breaking laws by sending money to families in need where their countries legally seize all international micro transfers that cross their borders via normal means. What's another unethical law to break?
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
It’s what the rich use for tax evasion now right?
Nah, the rich use corporate structuring where they buy everything through corporations which allow them to deduct almost 100% of their spending, and use loan tactics where rather than take profits they use them as collateral for a loan, where loans are tax free. Bitcoin is what the poor and middle class can use for offshore tax havens. Stuff that only the rich had access to before.
 

Kope

Artist?
Nah, the rich use corporate structuring where they buy everything through corporations which allow them to deduct almost 100% of their spending, and use loan tactics where rather than take profits they use them as collateral for a loan, where loans are tax free. Bitcoin is what the poor and middle class can use for offshore tax havens. Stuff that only the rich had access to before.
*thinks about Tesla who owns millions in bit coin while it’s CEO promotes pumps and dumps*

hmm
 

KimberVaile

Self congratulatory title goes here
Seems Bitcoin is still following stocks, and with the stocks going into a bear market, there's already been a bit of blood.

I'm pretty sure Terra Luna is dead in the water now. Went from like, 80 dollars to less than a cent. Algorithmic stable-coins, hell stablecoins in general are bad news.
With the market going into bear territory, I wonder if it might be a good thing for crypto to flush out all the meme coins and other projects with poor fundamentals. NFTs have certainly been hit hard, thankfully.
 
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Borophagus Metropolis

A prehistoric aquatic woof.
Seems Bitcoin is still following stocks, and with the stocks going into a bear market, there's already been a bit of blood.

I'm pretty sure Terra Luna is a dead in the water now. Went from like, 80 dollars to less than a cent. Algorithmic stable-coins, hell stablecoins in general are bad news.
With the market going into bear territory, I wonder if it might be a good thing for crypto to flush out all the meme coins and other projects with poor fundamentals.

Nooooo, not my Dogecoin!
 

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
No there isn't. One is just a law you like and the other is one you don't. You're already against me breaking laws such as paying women for work in countries where it's illegal for them to work, or me breaking laws by sending money to families in need where their countries legally seize all international micro transfers that cross their borders via normal means. What's another unethical law to break?
If you're actually doing that, I'll admit that is admirable ... but you've worked in finance long enough to know no banking institution is going to engage in that kind of activity if it is illegal in any country on either end of the transaction.

It also doesn't detract from my point that me not supporting illegal financial activity is tantamount to supporting the persecution of Jews during the Holocaust.

On the other stuff, I previously posted the link showing the language with FinCEN is mandating KYC for non-custodial wallet operations in their forthcoming guidance.

As for Deep Capture, citing unknown individuals knowing the truth about your conspiracy theories isn't advancing your case about the SEC or the "deep state".
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
*thinks about Tesla who owns millions in bit coin while it’s CEO promotes pumps and dumps*

hmm
Just the Dogecoin bs. And then I think he just doesn't get the point, thinking it's more efficient, when the only reason it is, is because no one uses it so it barely has any volume.

I wonder if it might be a good thing for crypto to flush out all the meme coins and other projects with poor fundamentals. NFTs have certainly been hit hard, thankfully.

God I hope so. So many distractions and resources wasted. But when crypto goes down and stops being stupidly exciting again, that's when we get back to work :D

If you're actually doing that, I'll admit that is admirable ... but you've worked in finance long enough to know no banking institution is going to engage in that kind of activity if it is illegal in any country on either end of the transaction.
Yeah, but who cares? Bitcoin makes banking institutions unnecessary. That's the whole point. You're in charge of your money, can pay or get paid, and no one can do anything about it. What do I need banks for?

It also doesn't detract from my point that me not supporting illegal financial activity is tantamount to supporting the persecution of Jews during the Holocaust.
Do you or do you not agree that some laws should be ignored because they're unethical?
If yes, that's what Bitcoin allows. Countries passing laws to regulate Bitcoin and regulate who can and can't have financial access are unethical.


On the other stuff, I previously posted the link showing the language with FinCEN is mandating KYC for non-custodial wallet operations in their forthcoming guidance.
Yeah, and I keep saying it's unenforceable and impractical. Like I said, Bitcoin makes notepad.exe and a calculator a financial app, a wallet, that lets you send Bitcoin, and thus would require the creator of notepad.exe to collect KYC on the users if that regulation passes. Plus Bitcoin node itself is a wallet, so that would make every node illegal, which is, good luck XD


As for Deep Capture, citing unknown individuals knowing the truth about your conspiracy theories isn't advancing your case about the SEC or the "deep state".
You're still confused thinking I have a case or am trying to convince you. I'm just telling you what I know. I don't care if you don't believe me and lose all your money in the market. I just ethically can't advise people to invest in it.
 

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
Do you or do you not agree that some laws should be ignored because they're unethical?
If yes, that's what Bitcoin allows. Countries passing laws to regulate Bitcoin and regulate who can and can't have financial access are unethical.
I think there is wide gulf between breaking laws to save Jews during the Holocaust ... and breaking international and national financial regulations.

I'm side-eyeing your apparent sudden social-mindedness.

Yeah, and I keep saying it's unenforceable and impractical. Like I said, Bitcoin makes notepad.exe and a calculator a financial app, a wallet, that lets you send Bitcoin, and thus would require the creator of notepad.exe to collect KYC on the users if that regulation passes. Plus Bitcoin node itself is a wallet, so that would make every node illegal, which is, good luck XD
I mean, putting aside the vast resources the federal government has for enforcement, most people aren't to use the method you're describing to transfer funds for everyday transactions that is more convoluted than traditional electronic payment systems ... or cash.

Also, most individuals and institutions aren't going to use an app that isn't compliant with their country's financial regulations, for obvious reasons.

And you can just admit you have no proof of your SEC allegations.
 

Kope

Artist?
I think there is wide gulf between breaking laws to save Jews during the Holocaust ... and breaking international and national financial regulations.

I'm side-eyeing your apparent sudden social-mindedness.


I mean, putting aside the vast resources the federal government has for enforcement, most people aren't to use the method you're describing to transfer funds for everyday transactions that is more convoluted than traditional electronic payment systems ... or cash.

Also, most individuals and institutions aren't going to use an app that isn't compliant with their country's financial regulations, for obvious reasons.

And you can just admit you have no proof of your SEC allegations.
I see where you’re coming from but look at it from the average perspective. The rich break the rules all the time (sometimes the ones they intentionally implement through lobbying) so why would an average Joe care about this if the rich are hetting away with it as well.
 

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
I see where you’re coming from but look at it from the average perspective. The rich break the rules all the time (sometimes the ones they intentionally implement through lobbying) so why would an average Joe care about this if the rich are hetting away with it as well.
I'd argue financial regulations should and do apply to everyone, not just the wealthy.

I'd add as well that the flouting of financial laws Bitcoin somewhat enables actually empowers the wealthy to more effectively hide vaster sums of money from taxes and scrutiny while attempting to undermine the governments and economies that those who are not wealthy depend on.
 

Kope

Artist?
I'd argue financial regulations should and do apply to everyone, not just the wealthy.

I'd add as well that the flouting of financial laws Bitcoin somewhat enables actually empowers the wealthy to more effectively hide vaster sums of money from taxes and scrutiny while attempting to undermine the governments and economies that those who are not wealthy depend on.
Good point. I just wish we could level the playing field and lower the inequality for everyone.
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
I think there is wide gulf between breaking laws to save Jews during the Holocaust ... and breaking international and national financial regulations.
Not really, since international financial regulations are mainly used to control and oppress. Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman some time. Or remember the Cantilon Effect I mentioned. It's why El Salvador and now many other countries are looking to Bitcoin for salvation, and why so many in Bitcoin are motivated to make it work no matter the price.
FB_IMG_1652840961144.jpg


I'm side-eyeing your apparent sudden social-mindedness.
Nothing sudden about it. I kept telling you that's the reason I and many others are in Bitcoin. You and others keep saying it's to make money on it going up, or to sell my bags to someone else, but it's always been to give people freedom from financial oppression.

I mean, putting aside the vast resources the federal government has for enforcement,
They don't have enough. Even the totalitarian nightmare surveillance state of Communist China doesn't have enough.

most people aren't to use the method you're describing to transfer funds for everyday transactions that is more convoluted than traditional electronic payment systems ... or cash.
In Europe there's a popular payment method called MB Way, where you see a QR code on the permanent terminal, and you just scan it with your banking app. Same concept. But that's if you want to have control of your money. I agree most people will just keep trusting their bank with it, so they'll just use Bitcoin with their debit card, which they can already,


Also, most individuals and institutions aren't going to use an app that isn't compliant with their country's financial regulations, for obvious reasons.
Depends on the country. People in Venezuela have no problem using it, since they know their country's financial regulations and government are extremely corrupt.

But like I said, I'm not worried about KYC on non-custodial wallets. The concept is too stupid to even consider.

And you can just admit you have no proof of your SEC allegations.
I'm not a liar. As I said, you'll just dismiss any proof as conspiracy.
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
I'd argue financial regulations should and do apply to everyone, not just the wealthy.
As they say, a fine just means that only the rich can do it. There's also the whole too big to fail, bailouts, and things I mentioned that you don't believe.

I'd add as well that the flouting of financial laws Bitcoin somewhat enables actually empowers the wealthy to more effectively hide vaster sums of money from taxes and scrutiny while attempting to undermine the governments and economies that those who are not wealthy depend on.
They already can do that. I can even give you a number of legal ways how. But now everyone else can do it too. And, regarding the last sentence, good! Bad governments shouldn't be allowed to survive.
 
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