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How many furries know what Bitcoin is?

Do you know what Bitcoin is?

  • Yes.

  • I have heard of it but don't really know much.

  • Isn't it like, a dark web thing?

  • Never heard of it.


Results are only viewable after voting.
Bitcoin itself are not harming the eco system tho, miners are, and some of them are already working to fix that, iirc there's even an italian crypto farm that only uses hydroelectric energy to farm their stuff.

That being said there's also NFTs, these aren't quite the same as bitcoin and the like, these are a type of "token". Unlike Bitcoin NFTs have been serialized and can be tracked Individually, that's why they require stupid amounts of energy to do anything, no one but stupid hollywood celebrities and brands actually like these since they are just a novelty
 

Yakamaru

Mr. Villanous charm
...Bitcoin is damaging the ecosystem? What?
 

Mambi

Fun loving kitty cat
@Yakamaru ...Bitcoin is damaging the ecosystem? What?

They might mean the Economy...?
It could've been a mistake in wording.
But hell if I know lol.

Data-mining uses a lot of computer power in server farms...and those suck up a lot of electricity and space, which tends to be bad for the environment.
 
Each time a coin is mined it gets harder and harder to mine the next and since miners are in a race against each other they buy a lot of computers to increase processing speed, this in turn increases electricity consumption

Edit:
But like i said, some people are already working on fixing this, the bigger problem right now are NFTs
 

Yakamaru

Mr. Villanous charm
They might mean the Economy...?
It could've been a mistake in wording.
But hell if I know lol.
Hell if I know either. Kinda sounds like jealousy because people are becoming millionaires off of it, or the very least decently richer. And people didn't jump on it and as such are losing out on it. Hell, I am now sitting at some 250% earnings on these investments.

The old don't like competition. Bitcoin and the wallet system is a competition with the banks and various other systems, and they don't like that very much.
 

MechaMegs

The Red Menace
@Yakamaru ...Bitcoin is damaging the ecosystem? What?



Data-mining uses a lot of computer power in server farms...and those suck up a lot of electricity and space, which tends to be bad for the environment.
Yes the consumption of resources in the further increase in demand of components for the miner rigs to the space used up for it to the power consumed from start to end.
 

Izzy4895

Bad Fox

Pomorek

Antelope-Addicted Hyena
I may be paranoid by nature, but for me the whole thing looks dangerously close to a new incarnation of a pyramid scheme. Except that this one is self-sustaining on a longer term basis.

What's more, I can't help but think that this whole system enables some very evil people to do some very evil things. And while geeky folks are happy that their 'puters are creating monies - the processing power that is generated empowers criminals, drug/weapons/human traffickers and other sorts of scum to conduct their dark business unhindered by the traditional money control mechanisms. I'd bite my own paw off rather than lend it to something like this.

I realize that the above is still my own suspicions, so having no hard proof I was still rather tolerant towards the whole thing. But more recently, as it started hurting both on personal levels (by sucking the market dry of electronics) and globally (contributing noticeably to the resource wastage), I wish for noting less than this whole damn crypto thing be nuked to hell, and good f-ing riddance!

hero_nuclear_blast.jpg
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
Each time a coin is mined it gets harder and harder to mine the next and since miners are in a race against each other they buy a lot of computers to increase processing speed, this in turn increases electricity consumption
That's not how it works. The difficulty isn't dependent on the number of coins produced. Instead it's based on trying to keep new coin issuance at a fixed 10 minutes per successful mine. If more people put more computing power into it and start finding new coins faster, then it becomes more difficult to bring the speed back to one mine every 10 minutes. If nobody adds any more computing power, that difficulty remains the same. And if people pull out of mining and remaining people find it too hard to mine, the difficulty goes down (as it did last week after a lot of miners temporarily stopped mining in China). This difficulty adjustment works automatically roughly every two weeks. The only thing that has been making mining and energy use go up is Bitcoin's price. Because mining costs A LOT of money, if the difficulty goes up too much you may not earn any profit or even lose money. But if Bitcoin price goes up, what you can earn is worth more, so more people start to mine to get some of that profit. Until the difficulty goes up again and makes the payment lower. In simple terms, this automatic difficulty adjustment keeps making the profitability of Bitcoin trend to zero, but as long as Bitcoin grows in value there's still a bit of money to be made.

Another thing, these aren't mined with computers. They require specially manufactured CPUs (ASIC) which can only mine Bitcoin and nothing else, and due to bring specially made for that purpose they can mine it millions of timea faster than a regular PC CPU.
 

Nexus Cabler

Draconic technophile
I know the basics, it being a crypto currency, and it's value can suddenly rise and fall on a variety of factors, etc.

My father and sister have invested a small amount into them, and from what I have heard, they have had promising results.

I might try it myself some point in time.
 
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Rassah

Well-Known Member
It's that thing that makes my plans to upgrade my video card for, you know, GAMING, an annoying-as-hell endeavour. -_-
I realize that the above is still my own suspicions, so having no hard proof I was still rather tolerant towards the whole thing. But more recently, as it started hurting both on personal levels (by sucking the market dry of electronics)...
Bitcoin has nothing to do with it. You can't mine Bitcoin with video cards. It's all the other shitty coins that people created, hoping to get in on the "blockchain" fad, that use GPUs. Hopefully they will die off soon.
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
Regarding concerns about Bitcoin's waste of energy, and it being used for "empowers criminals, drug/weapons/human traffickers and other sorts of scum," it would be useful to compare it to alternatives.

The first complaint, is that bitcoin results in a lot of a lot of wasted energy/resources. Let's compare that to gold and fiat (USD/EUR). Gold takes am enormous amount of energy to mine, and destroys whole areas with physical mining in the process. Bitcoin just uses electricity and can get it from clean sources too, like hydro (which probably accounts for at least 1/3rd of it). Fiat takes no energy to create (government and private banks just print it out of thin air), but it creates another way more massive problem, which is inflation. Inflation is MASSIVELY wasteful and horrible for the environment because it motivates consumption (which is one of the reasons we're told we need it). That means people don't want their money sitting around losing value, so they go spend it on whatever crap they can get. Worse, they even borrow money to spend on crap, because even borrowing costs less than saving. All that consumption is of products that waste lots of energy and resources.

Second way inflation is horrible is that it creates what's called malinvestment. Say we we're using a currency that lost 0% a year to inflation, and you were approached with an investment that burns tons of energy and resources, and for that loses you 1% of your money. Would you invest? Of course not!
Now say we're using dollars that lose 3% a year. Now that investment looks like a 2% return instead of a 1% loss, because it outpaces the dollar loss by 2%. It looks like a good investment, so it gets started and begins to waste all that energy and resources, and in the end the wealth it actually produces is still the same negative 1%. It just looks good compared to dollars. There are A LOT of malinvestments like these around the world, and they waste WAY more than Bitcoin ever possibly could.

And third, inflation allows governments to spend money on things no one would actually voluntarily support, simply because it can print as much as it wants. Corporate subsidies. Pork projects that suck up millions but never go anywhere (like California's rail project). Or worst of all, war. How much energy and resources did we spend on the wars in middle east? Trillions. Way more than Bitcoin can even come close to. If everyone, and governments, used deflationary bitcoin that no one can just create as much as they want to, it would be literally impossible for governments to spend money on subsidies and wars, because the only way they could get money for them is by asking us to pay taxes for them directly, which obviously we would vote against.

And the second complaint about Bitcoin, with regards to it being used for a slew of bad things, first, those things were not invented by Bitcoin users. They were very widely used with just USD cash. Laws don't stop those things at all. And second, fiat that you can print actually makes those WORSE, because a lot of those bad things are done by people in power who have the ability to print that money themselves, or get it from banking and political friends who can. Like the wars for example, where the military industrial complex has been getting billions to murder innocent people from their political friends. Or the billions that government agencies have been using to smuggle guns, spread drugs, and possibly even fund human trafficking in other countries (and our own) to destabilize them or their populations. If we were all using Bitcoin, the only way for these bad people to fund their activities would be to offer people something they actually want so people can give them the money voluntarily. And as soon as exposed for doing these bad things, people would just stop giving them money. Which isn't a problem with fiat, since they just print more to fund themselves.

So, yeah, with regards to wasting resources and funding bad things, Bitcoin is not even a blip on a radar compared to ALLLLLLLL the shit inflationary fiat contributes to.
 

TyraWadman

The Brutally Honest Man-Child
But Bitcoin is digital. You could literally type more money, vs printing it?

I can't legally invest into anything until I can figure out how to restore my missing i.ds anyway so it technically doesn't affect me much, but I have seen the negatives more than the positive. Like people are just desperately trying to convince you it's good, but the people on board only want to get richer.
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
But Bitcoin is digital. You could literally type more money, vs printing it?

I can't legally invest into anything until I can figure out how to restore my missing i.ds anyway so it technically doesn't affect me much, but I have seen the negatives more than the positive. Like people are just desperately trying to convince you it's good, but the people on board only want to get richer.
One of Bitcoin's greatest innovations is to be able to make something that is both digital and cannot be duplicated like every other digital thing. It's the first time in history that you're able to send something digital to someone else, and guarantee that you will no longer have it yourself. So because of this mathematically guaranteed scarcity no one can make any more of it, not even the richest most powerful people or governments (who historically have been able to amass their wealth and power mainly by being able to print more money). You can hold a gun to a 2+2=4 math problem and demand that it be equal to 5, but it will always be equal to 4, and it's the same with Bitcoin's math.

Eh, people desperately try to tell others to exercise, eat healthy, and do things that make you better off too, because doing those things made them better off, but other people either listen or don't. It's same with bitcoin. Everyone I know who switched to hard, sound money with a good monetary policy became much better off in the end. Everyone who stuck with their easy and manipulated money remained the same or got worse. And just like old folks who don't want to adopt the internet doesn't really affect the internet, people who don't want to adopt new money won't really affect it either.
Although I am not sure if you are trying to imply that "getting richer" is a bad thing?
 

TyraWadman

The Brutally Honest Man-Child
One of Bitcoin's greatest innovations is to be able to make something that is both digital and cannot be duplicated like every other digital thing. It's the first time in history that you're able to send something digital to someone else, and guarantee that you will no longer have it yourself. So because of this mathematically guaranteed scarcity no one can make any more of it, not even the richest most powerful people or governments (who historically have been able to amass their wealth and power mainly by being able to print more money). You can hold a gun to a 2+2=4 math problem and demand that it be equal to 5, but it will always be equal to 4, and it's the same with Bitcoin's math.

Eh, people desperately try to tell others to exercise, eat healthy, and do things that make you better off too, because doing those things made them better off, but other people either listen or don't. It's same with bitcoin. Everyone I know who switched to hard, sound money with a good monetary policy became much better off in the end. Everyone who stuck with their easy and manipulated money remained the same or got worse. And just like old folks who don't want to adopt the internet doesn't really affect the internet, people who don't want to adopt new money won't really affect it either.
Although I am not sure if you are trying to imply that "getting richer" is a bad thing?

From my understanding, they started as a way to sort of unite the world under one currency and I really liked the sound of that idea. But now, in 2021, you've got more and more people trying to start their own. It's no longer a mission, it's a competition.

Getting wealthier (in my situation) wouldn't be terrible. But the psychological tactics of a promoting something as good, and then dipping once you've gotten your fill (aka playing the stock market) is more likely to be the issue than when it first started up. It doesn't make sense to me to promote cryptocurrency if you're still banking your success on the amount of cash you have to spend everywhere else that doesn't accept Bitcoin.

The concept of a digital currency having absolutely no way of being altered sounds very unrealistic to me. Unless I'm just misunderstanding something, it'd be like saying 'we made a safe no robber can break through', but you had to break down the materials in order to get it into that shape, not to mention, you still have to have employees coming and going from that safe every day. Someone had to make it in order to put it there. It doesn't matter how many layers it has, it can still be abused or manipulated in some way. So clearly something can, and will, happen at some point.

People can hack or develop malware to get into it. People can lose their entire wallet just for not being able to remember their password after x amount of times. That wouldn't go over well with a lot of older folks, I'm sure. If people are desperate enough, they will find a way to exploit it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, same shit, different currency. XD

All in all, this doesn't really affect me 'cause I'm in Canada and nobody uses it over here. But this is just my skepticism on it.
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
From my understanding, they started as a way to sort of unite the world under one currency and I really liked the sound of that idea. But now, in 2021, you've got more and more people trying to start their own. It's no longer a mission, it's a competition.

Getting wealthier (in my situation) wouldn't be terrible. But the psychological tactics of a promoting something as good, and then dipping once you've gotten your fill (aka playing the stock market) is more likely to be the issue than when it first started up. It doesn't make sense to me to promote cryptocurrency if you're still banking your success on the amount of cash you have to spend everywhere else that doesn't accept Bitcoin.

The concept of a digital currency having absolutely no way of being altered sounds very unrealistic to me. Unless I'm just misunderstanding something, it'd be like saying 'we made a safe no robber can break through', but you had to break down the materials in order to get it into that shape, not to mention, you still have to have employees coming and going from that safe every day. Someone had to make it in order to put it there. It doesn't matter how many layers it has, it can still be abused or manipulated in some way. So clearly something can, and will, happen at some point.

People can hack or develop malware to get into it. People can lose their entire wallet just for not being able to remember their password after x amount of times. That wouldn't go over well with a lot of older folks, I'm sure. If people are desperate enough, they will find a way to exploit it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, same shit, different currency. XD

All in all, this doesn't really affect me 'cause I'm in Canada and nobody uses it over here. But this is just my skepticism on it.

That's still the goal, and one that's closer than ever, to make it be the world's reserve currency. I'm playing with the latest Bitcoin tech now (still in beta but came a long way in the last year), and it let's me send transactions with almost instant settlement and almost zero fees. I can even use it to instantly fund one-time-use VISA cards to buy anything online. Those other competitions have been around since almost the beginning, but they're about as useful as someone making their own dollar bills with green crayons. Or someone making up their "secret language" that no one else knows or uses. It's the same concept. There's still only one main cryptocurrency with the biggest network of users.

Those who end up making money from Bitcoin don't "dip" if you mean "take their profits and run." Bitcoin*is* money. Just keep your savings in it and spend it when you need to. It's going up mainly because more and more people are realizing that it's better money than all alternatives, and dumping their old money to move into it. Some even moving hundreds of millions or billions into it. I guess the point is to not be the last one left holding the old money that by then will be worthless. Earlier you move in, better off you'll be. If you move in late, you'll still be able to use it just fine, but you'd have missed out on the growth. That's why people are trying to get their friends and family into it. They don't want them to miss the growth part.

It's not so much a safe no robber can break through, it's more like a financial policy that was set at the beginning and no one can change or mess with. No rich person, government, bank, or dictator can come in and say "Bitcoin will do this from now on." No one can change the total number of bitcoins that cash exist by just printing more for themselves. No one can say "This country or these people can't spend their bitcoin in this way." It's the most sovereign, uncensorable, apolitical, and thus peaceful and fair currency in existence. Everyone has to use it exactly the same way as everyone else, no one can dictate what it can and can't do, it doesn't depend on any country's political or economic stability, and nobody can capture it for their own benefit like governments have done countless times with their money (from diluting gold coins to printing more paper than there is gold to back it). That's also why it's the most trusted money by those who use it.

The reason it can't be changed our hacked is because it's not a program or a piece of software that just runs on some computer somewhere, but rather a math based language that everyone uses to communicate transactions of value to each other. And it's all based on consensus, meaning everyone has to agree on the terms in that language. You can easily take the code, "hack" it, and change the language to anything you want. It's not even a "hack" really, since it's all open and easily modifiable. But the problem is that if you do that, no other Bitcoin computers will understand you or trust you. They'll just ignore whatever your code says because it doesn't conform to the standard that everyone else uses. And they have a huge incentive to conform, because if they don't, no one else will accept their payments either. The only way to change Bitcoin is to have a supermajority (90%+) agree on that change. And even then there are a lot of economic incentives to prevent such agreements from happening. For instance, you can propose to increase the amount of bitcoin that can exist and make it inflationary, but the majority of people will not want to see their savings go down in value so they will not go along with that change, and your change will just be ignored. So there's really no way to hack or exploit it because there's nothing actually there to exploit. It's just too basic and too distributed.

People can forget their passwords, but they write them down for that reason. Or make backups. Or use custodial services like banks that store their bitcoins for them. More and more banks are coming around to letting you hold bitcoins in your account along with dollars, euros, and other stuff. There are already a number of debit cards that let you spend it anywhere VISA or MasterCard are accepted, and PayPal is rolling out a way to pay with it too. In a few short years you'll be able to use it same as you use Canadian dollars through your bank or credit card. It'll just be another currency available to you. Only difference is that it will not keep falling in value like your current money is, and you'll have the option to take full personal control over it if you want to.
 

TyraWadman

The Brutally Honest Man-Child
Those who end up making money from Bitcoin don't "dip" if you mean "take their profits and run." Bitcoin*is* money. Just keep your savings in it and spend it when you need to. It's going up mainly because more and more people are realizing that it's better money than all alternatives, and dumping their old money to move into it. Some even moving hundreds of millions or billions into it. I guess the point is to not be the last one left holding the old money that by then will be worthless. Earlier you move in, better off you'll be. If you move in late, you'll still be able to use it just fine, but you'd have missed out on the growth. That's why people are trying to get their friends and family into it. They don't want them to miss the growth part.

So how do you actually use it then? Is it 1 dollar of any currency for one bitcoin? Do you just load it up how you would buying an online gift certificate? If so, that might be more reasonable.

But if you have to fork over thousands for just one coin (like I keep hearing it is), it's not gonna help those who are stuck spending 80% of their income on basic living expenses.
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
So how do you actually use it then? Is it 1 dollar of any currency for one bitcoin? Do you just load it up how you would buying an online gift certificate? If so, that might be more reasonable.

But if you have to fork over thousands for just one coin (like I keep hearing it is), it's not gonna help those who are stuck spending 80% of their income on basic living expenses.
Just use it same as any money. Like deciding you don't want to use euros anymore and converting them to dollars. You just keep your money in it and use it to pay for things, such as reloading your VISA card, or paying for things online directly with merchants who support accepting payments in it. Only difference is that, while you need to go through the same banking setup hassle to convert your currency into it using online means, if you just want to set up an account to accept it all you need to do is download a simple wallet app. A lot of people who can't get a bank account use it for that reason.
Sure, the price of a Bitcoin is about $58,000 right now, but since it's divisible to 100 million units, the smallest unit, called satoshi, is worth less than a penny, so you can buy any tiny amount you want. Even a penny worth. Same as a $100 bill is too expensive for most people in the world to obtain, but they can just get $1 or a few cents if they wanted to. And it can definitely help those who spend 80% of their income on basic living expenses. If they convert their income into Bitcoin, they can get good deals spending that money on living expenses (there are places that give you discounts on gift cards you can use for groceries, or as much as 15% off on Amazon purchases, if you use bitcoin), and as the month goes by, the money they have left can just keep growing, versus continuing to fall if they keep in all in dollars.
 

Jackpot Raccuki

Mind your manors
It’s the reason I hate new graphic cards coz they’re all sold out by people mining.

Whiles I know why some people do it and why it can be good, I still wish all people who do it but buy the new graphic cards making it impossible for people to enjoy it that they trip over, stub their toe and have the sensation of wanting to sneeze but can’t for a full hour.
 

MechaMegs

The Red Menace
I see some claims that Bitcoin is lower emissions than say Gold mining.
Emissions of Bitcoin vs other things like gold mining
Seems that Bitcoin operations are responsible for more emissions than gold mining annually:
goldcoin.png


I stand by my initial statement that bitcoin is a digital currency that is yet another capitally driven machination that really on a large scale has the net benefit of adding yet another vector of destruction to the climate.
 

Faustus

Well-Known Member
I see some claims that Bitcoin is lower emissions than say Gold mining.
Emissions of Bitcoin vs other things like gold mining
Seems that Bitcoin operations are responsible for more emissions than gold mining annually:
It's worth noting that the disparity in opinions may be because BitCoin, by its nature, is a finite resource. The more that gets mined, the longer it takes to mine the same amount. This translates directly into more energy and more emissions. Gold is of course also a natural resource following the same general rules, but the number of companies with the money, political connections and experience to mine it are limited. Anyone with the space and knowledge to set up a home server can start mining BitCoin, and the outlay is much much lower.

Similarly, the blockchain on which it's based relies on a network of computers performing fancy calculations to track the entire trading history of a bitcoin, every time a transaction occurs. This would mean that there would continue to be a steady increase in computational needs to maintain the currency, even after the last bitcoin ever was mined, because those trading histories will only get longer and more complicated to process.

Now, I don't have historic data to back this up, but logically speaking, this could mean that the CO2 cost of BitCoin accelerates dramatically, maybe even exponentially, over time. It's likely that at one time BitCoin WAS less impactful than gold mining, though I don't have the data to show when exactly that would have been. Any way you look at it though, it doesn't seem to be an ecologically or financially sustainable model, and sooner or later the needs of the system as a whole will become more expensive to operate than the profit they create. When that happens, I'd expect a massive market crash, and a bunch of people will be left holding a worthless currency.
 

Rassah

Well-Known Member
It’s the reason I hate new graphic cards coz they’re all sold out by people mining.
Bitcoin has nothing to do with graphics cards. You can't mine Bitcoin with graphics cards. It's all the copycat and scam coins that use those.
 
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