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How to deal with sensitive topics & a call for tact

tato

Just some spud
What I love most about the furry community is that it's a niche that bonds so many different types of folks, from 'nerds' to business folks, blue collar workers, from young to old, so it always pains me to see furries create a civil war over politics- the one thing that even furdom can't seem to bond.

I think it's time we finally had a discussion on HOW to discuss these very important, very sensitive topics in this day and age.

In lieu of the new code of conduct policies, I've seen so many toxic threads pop up in the most extremes of: KILL ALL NAZIS AND ANYONE WHO EVEN -LOOKS- AT A NAZI to FUCK ALL YOU SENSITIVE BABIES WHO ARE UPSET BY ____ISM. Have we really regressed as a community to the level of youtube commenters and 4chan trolls?

The question is, how can we express our sometimes unfavorable opinions in a way that is still tactful to other people? And the answer is simple: Always put yourself in the other person's shoes.

That's the thing we as people tend to forget. We don't see the other people as 'people.' We see them as a target, an enemy, a threat to the thing we believe in, and regardless of what your belief is, THAT kind of behavior turns you from being an evangelist for your belief, into a common, base, uncivilized troll.

It is possible to have discussions that don't end in name calling, belittling, gaslighting, nor pandering, patronizing, or having to discuss things like we're talking to 2 year olds. The key is tact. Here's some tips on truly getting your opinions out there in a way that can be respected and heard instead of just inciting people's worst natures:

-Respect your opponent. Accept that others don't believe you and are willing to, and deserve the right to, express that. Understand that people come from different backgrounds and experiences as you, and those experiences don't make them any better or less of a person than yours.
-Use objective language, not subjective. Objective language is simply stating things that relate to the topic that is measurable and is not left up to opinion. Subjective language uses words that strike up emotions. Examplse of subjective would be "Your ideas are stupid." Stupid is subjective. You could instead say "Your ideas are contrary to what I am stating."
-Separate fact from opinion. When possible, use citeable facts. When you can't, admit that your opinion is as subject to flaws as anyone else's. By the end of the day, even morality is subjective, and it's very difficult to state a feeling as fact, however much of the majority may believe that. For everyone else's opinions you think are wrong, or stupid, or invalid, they are thinking the same of yours.
-Take a moment to read your post out loud before you send it. And ask yourself: is my comment necessary? Does it validate my opinion? Does it edify? Am I just saying this out of hurt? Am I just saying this to hurt someone else? Is this truly how I want to represent myself to the public? and always: What would my grandmother think if she saw me talk this way? XD It never hurts.

But above all things, humility is the most important trait when it comes to reaching an audience.
After all, what is the one thing that incites conflict? "I am right. You are wrong." Right?

This is the one thing that SJW's, Nazis, Christians, Terroists, Buddhists, Democrats, Republicans, Feminists, Misogynists, etc all have in common.

So before you think that you're calling out someone for some grave injustice, take a moment to think about how you're saying it before you become the very thing you're fighting against.

And lastly, a little call out to fellow Christians out there. This is for people who identify as Christians only: remember who you are trying to represent. Never forget the one commandment that fulfills all the others: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. & Love your neighbor as yourself."
And a very overlooked verse in Phil 2:3 "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves."
Can we truly say that we value others ABOVE ourselves? What does it mean to value others above yourself? I can tell you at least this one thing: It is more important to edify, uplift, and have compassion than to be RIGHT. Take a knee before you take up a sword.

I truly feel bad for right wing people labeled as criminals and assholes as well as left wing people for being labeled as sensitive whiners. We're all victims to one another until we stop the cycle and realize that being human is more important than being right. Please heed this!
 
B

backpawscratcher

Guest
I’m sorry, but when it comes to the Nazi thing I just can’t. I don’t mean conservatives or general right-wingers, who I disagree with but see as carrying a legitimate political position. I mean the actual literal neo-Nazis that have been infiltrating our fandom, pretty much universally as a recruiting tool. There are vulnerable furs amongst us who are desperate for company and empathy. The Nazi “furs” (because I doubt they are actual furries, or at least are Nazis first and furries second) are preying on them, using standard grooming tactics.

And I won’t stand by and let that happen. There’s no peace, love and understanding across the table when the person opposite you carries a philosophy of racial supremacy and hatred dressed up as friendship. Why should I reach out to them and show them tolerance? They aren’t worthy of that from me.

So I’m happy they’ve been finally booted from FA.
 
I’m sorry, but when it comes to the Nazi thing I just can’t. I don’t mean conservatives or general right-wingers, who I disagree with but see as carrying a legitimate political position. I mean the actual literal neo-Nazis that have been infiltrating our fandom, pretty much universally as a recruiting tool. There are vulnerable furs amongst us who are desperate for company and empathy. The Nazi “furs” (because I doubt they are actual furries, or at least are Nazis first and furries second) are preying on them, using standard grooming tactics.

And I won’t stand by and let that happen. There’s no peace, love and understanding across the table when the person opposite you carries a philosophy of racial supremacy and hatred dressed up as friendship. Why should I reach out to them and show them tolerance? They aren’t worthy of that from me.

So I’m happy they’ve been finally booted from FA.
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln
"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill." -Sun Tzu
 

Wulf Canavar

"He flashed a knowing grin...."
I’m sorry, but when it comes to the Nazi thing I just can’t. I don’t mean conservatives or general right-wingers, who I disagree with but see as carrying a legitimate political position. I mean the actual literal neo-Nazis that have been infiltrating our fandom, pretty much universally as a recruiting tool. There are vulnerable furs amongst us who are desperate for company and empathy. The Nazi “furs” (because I doubt they are actual furries, or at least are Nazis first and furries second) are preying on them, using standard grooming tactics.

And I won’t stand by and let that happen. There’s no peace, love and understanding across the table when the person opposite you carries a philosophy of racial supremacy and hatred dressed up as friendship. Why should I reach out to them and show them tolerance? They aren’t worthy of that from me.

So I’m happy they’ve been finally booted from FA.


Wow, this is so weird. Thanks for mentioning this. I hadn't heard. But I have to say, Nazi Furs vs Antifa Furs...........

I mean, I know people are serious about this, but it's the first I've heard about it, and I'm just lmao right now.

That being said, I know it's a big deal, and I can tell you take it seriously. It caught me by surprise that there could even BE such a thing, much less that there would be Antifa Furs to rise up against it.

So thank you for mentioning it. Broaden my knowledge. You learn something new every day.
 
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quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
I’m sorry, but when it comes to the Nazi thing I just can’t. I don’t mean conservatives or general right-wingers, who I disagree with but see as carrying a legitimate political position. I mean the actual literal neo-Nazis that have been infiltrating our fandom, pretty much universally as a recruiting tool. There are vulnerable furs amongst us who are desperate for company and empathy. The Nazi “furs” (because I doubt they are actual furries, or at least are Nazis first and furries second) are preying on them, using standard grooming tactics.

And I won’t stand by and let that happen. There’s no peace, love and understanding across the table when the person opposite you carries a philosophy of racial supremacy and hatred dressed up as friendship. Why should I reach out to them and show them tolerance? They aren’t worthy of that from me.

So I’m happy they’ve been finally booted from FA.
IMO you can't simultaneously acknowledge that alt-right uses cult-esque grooming tactics (which yes, they absolutely do) and refuse to entertain the notion that not every member of the group is an awful, irredeemable person. Logic dictates that you may end up encountering the kids led astray, and I don't know that I think they are always deserving of unlimited scorn.

I have no love for the recruiters, but I don't think we do ourselves or our fandom any favors by assuming that any given individual we encounter is one of the recruiters. For me personally, I find treating people decently and employing a calm, no-nonsense attitude in calling them on it if they say something unacceptable jives best with my personal values.
 

Yakamaru

Autumn Wolf
Want to talk about these topics?

- Find reasonable people to talk with. It doesn't necessarily translate to those whom you only agree with, but someone who is capable of disagreeing when they disagree, and agree when they agree. Someone who is able to agree to disagree instead of attacking you personally.
- Extremist or not, treat them as individuals and not as a group. Do not take away their humanity because of their views. Though I'd argue there are exceptions: Terrorists, mass murderers and those who are genuinely irredeemable. "Treat others as you want them to treat you". If someone had the chance to kill you and they would, don't interact with them.
- Do not assume the position of the one you're talking with before the conversation have even started. It's insulting to the very discussion, and quite frankly, intellectually dishonest if your goal is to have a conversation.
- Yes, we have non-violent extremists. I'd argue they could potentially be convinced out of their hateful ways, and it's worth a try. There's a reason we have so many articles/videos about "Ex/Former X" going about, and have had them for years.
- Right place for it. Some places are just not fit for certain topics due to the rules and/or the members on there.

Left-wingers invoke the Nazi cultural boogeyman to shut down conversation. Right-wingers invoke the Communist boogeyman to shut down conversation. Both sides are guilty of shutting down conversation, and it's gotten to the point where I am just amused to see how long it takes until Godwin's law or the one where Communism is mentioned(does the latter one even have a "law"? Similar to that of Godwin's).

I’m sorry, but when it comes to the Nazi thing I just can’t. I don’t mean conservatives or general right-wingers, who I disagree with but see as carrying a legitimate political position. I mean the actual literal neo-Nazis that have been infiltrating our fandom, pretty much universally as a recruiting tool. There are vulnerable furs amongst us who are desperate for company and empathy. The Nazi “furs” (because I doubt they are actual furries, or at least are Nazis first and furries second) are preying on them, using standard grooming tactics.

And I won’t stand by and let that happen. There’s no peace, love and understanding across the table when the person opposite you carries a philosophy of racial supremacy and hatred dressed up as friendship. Why should I reach out to them and show them tolerance? They aren’t worthy of that from me.

So I’m happy they’ve been finally booted from FA.
All the more reason to find these so-called Neo-Nazis and talk with them, to find out of they are genuinely a National Socialist or just an edgy troll to get a rise out of easily-triggered people.

Just make sure they are a genuine NatSoc and not being labeled a NatSoc by someone else. I am not interested in a "He said she said" scenario where you won't even talk with the one that are being accused of X. Someone accused of being X doesn't translate to them actually being X. Their own beliefs do, hence why it's important to actually ask them first. If they confirm to being a NatSoc, all the more reason to talk them out of it if they are actually reasonable. NatSocs in terms of numbers are sitting at, what, some 1k people across the States in total? Out of 365 million? Your chance of running into one is lower than that of dying in a plane crash.

If we're to address potential Neo-nazi grooming/recruiting we have to address Communist recruiting/grooming as well, seeing as Communism just lead to oppression, a fucked up economy and people dying, which is just as bad as NatSoc. Neither ideology work as they are just as garbage.

At this point I'm so sick of talking about this neo-Nazi boogeyman I get sleepy whenever it's mentioned.
 

Astus

Well Known Foxxo
Ah yes, all of this stuff is great in theory. But when you have someone who's emotionally charged and having their feelings hurt that something they thought was right for the longest time is wrong, or what they use to define themselves is being called into judgement, things tend to get escalated.

Example; you have someone who views himself as alt right, because deep down he feels threatened by the rising of groups like the antifa, and wants to continue his american lifestyle where he has guns and hotdogs to his content. When you give reasons why the alt right in general is not the greatest, he's going to flip out on you because he thinks you want to take his values (in this case, hotdogs and guns) away from him, as you're not supporting his side.

On the other hand, say you have a girl who's been living in poverty her whole life, her parents just made the bill each time. She goes to school and learns about the transcendentalists... How they viewed nature and humanity, and the goodness in people. She begins to think that people are inherently good and should help those in need to a fault, relating it back to the struggles in her life. She joins antifa because she dreams of a world where people can share everything, no one goes hungry, or worries about losing their house. When you try to tell her she's wrong, she thinks you want to let the elite ride the lower classes and she goes back to the stress of living in her poverty ridden home.

You can actually find in some instances, that people aren't arguing the topics at hand, they're arguing how it relates to their emotions or current/previous situations. They would rather ignore the doings of the whole to focus in the ideology they've created in the group for a means to their own end.

It's always really good to let people know where you're coming from in an argument first, instead of just jumping right into why you don't like antifa or the alt right or really whatever it is. It's actually funny because most of the time, arguments are held about the right way to reach a common end, when both people want the same thing. So just as a heads up, let people know where you're coming from on top of trying to be open and understand where they're coming from. That way everyone learns, and people do not get emotionally charged and butt hurt.

Obviously this won't work on trolls, who feed off of drama and the lols.
 

AppleButt

Well-Known Member
I’m sorry, but when it comes to the Nazi thing I just can’t. I don’t mean conservatives or general right-wingers, who I disagree with but see as carrying a legitimate political position. I mean the actual literal neo-Nazis that have been infiltrating our fandom, pretty much universally as a recruiting tool. There are vulnerable furs amongst us who are desperate for company and empathy. The Nazi “furs” (because I doubt they are actual furries, or at least are Nazis first and furries second) are preying on them, using standard grooming tactics.

And I won’t stand by and let that happen. There’s no peace, love and understanding across the table when the person opposite you carries a philosophy of racial supremacy and hatred dressed up as friendship. Why should I reach out to them and show them tolerance? They aren’t worthy of that from me.

So I’m happy they’ve been finally booted from FA.

If it took company and empathy to get them to join the Neo-Nazi clique. Maybe all it takes is the same to get them to turn away from it?

There’s many stories out there of NNs turning away from that garbage.

They aren’t all irredeemable.
 

Ciderfine

Slow as sickness but true as sap
Banned
The answer is simple, dont do what the user who created this topic says.

You want to say something "crazy" or "abnormal" best do it professionally. The "get the know them in their shoes" only works for the offened sides benefit, making you take pity, simply it down and cater to their needs. My time in psychology and human mental development told me that getting on someones level wont cure them, help them and only slow you down.

Because facts don't care about feelings. You need to be frank and direct. You want to say something? Do it logically and dont slow down your side of life for someone else whos to triggered to do so.
 

tato

Just some spud
I’m sorry, but when it comes to the Nazi thing I just can’t. I don’t mean conservatives or general right-wingers, who I disagree with but see as carrying a legitimate political position. I mean the actual literal neo-Nazis that have been infiltrating our fandom, pretty much universally as a recruiting tool. There are vulnerable furs amongst us who are desperate for company and empathy. The Nazi “furs” (because I doubt they are actual furries, or at least are Nazis first and furries second) are preying on them, using standard grooming tactics.

And I won’t stand by and let that happen. There’s no peace, love and understanding across the table when the person opposite you carries a philosophy of racial supremacy and hatred dressed up as friendship. Why should I reach out to them and show them tolerance? They aren’t worthy of that from me.

So I’m happy they’ve been finally booted from FA.

You just can't what? It's so easy to say "Nazis. I can't." But what is it we're really afraid of?
I agree, any harm to another individual shouldn't be tolerated. If anyone is openly harassing another user in an environment where that user has the right to feel safe, then they are impeding on the freedom of another individual. Their freedom of speech ends where another's freedom of safety begins. Naziism is the thing we need to night. The people who support it are blinded by an evil ideology, yes. But by the end of the day, they're just -people- like you and me, and frankly, that is what is most terrifying. When we villify a group to the point where looking at a symbol makes us run in fear, or seeing a uniform makes us immediately stick our head in the ground, then we're in very real danger of becoming exactly like them. We need to face our fears boldly, professionally, and with a higher sense of rationale. Any ism is caused by that very ignorance "I'm right and I JUST CAN'T EVEN THINK OR LOOK INTO ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING LA LA LA LA YOU DONT EXIST, JUST DISAPPEAR." is the very level of ignorance that causes people to turn a blind eye to reason. I'm not saying there is ANY reason to national socialism by any means, please understand. What I'm saying is this: if we can't confront the thing we fear, then we will become it, because fear begets ignorance, and ignorance begets hatred, and hatred begets fear and the cycle starts all over again.


"Why should I reach out to them and show them tolerance? They aren’t worthy of that from me." said the Nazi to the Jew.
You understand that this is the very point of what I'm saying? Because us, who are in a better position to have reason and a broader spectrum of how to treat others better, should be changing the world not by pretending that evil doesn't exist, as if banning them from FA will do anything to stop naziism, but rather, we should be trying to make a real difference, and make a real change. And, again as stated in my initial post, the ONLY way to change someone is to have a real conversation with them. You can't confront ignorance without education, and you can't educate someone if they don't trust you.

Yes, some people will refuse. Yes, real terrorists really exist. Yes, we need to ban groups from harassing other groups of people in a social environment that has a set code of conduct. Yes to all of the above. But no towards the general attitude of hating your enemy. MOST people in these hate groups are the sheep following the truly wicked leaders of the ideology. There are many who will act violently out of hatred and need to have a legal justice system stop them, but your common racist CAN be talked to.

I was a historical reenactor for a 116th panzer division, because I am a WWII writer and artist. I have traveled to Germany, Poland and Russia pursuing my passion to get a perspective from the people who suffered a first hand account of the affects of national socialism on their country. I am also a victim of racism every day of my life. I am half filipino, not recognized by the asian community, the people of color community, white people, 'brown people' or any people. I have been rejected from social activities due to my gender as well, and been given every strange uncomfortable terrible look from people for invading their spaace with my presence. I've been told that I can't join a church and should find one for 'my people.' I've been rejected for my lifestyle, for my gender, for my race, for my hobbies, for my weight, for my clothes. I'm not saying this for pity, I'm telling you that I of all people know first hand how disgusting racism is. My own father has said things that have made me want to tear out the very blood from my own body. But in spite of all these things, I pursue what I pursue BECAUSE of this.

I had joined reenactment because I wanted to write a more accurate portrayal of the military day to day life, to get first hand reference of military procedures, visual reference of uniforms and weaponry, and I had ignorantly HOPED to find people interested in the HISTORY, not the political ideals, as this particular unit specifically did not want any political affiliation, and represented one of the few units not charged with war crimes and for that, is still an active unit in the modern german army. I had gone in with an open mind, and met many wonderful people who took me in like one of their own. My unit was based out of the carolinas, with many deep south folk. A lot of the conversations around the campfire made me uncomfortable, directed at the common degredation of women, etc. In spite of it all, there were people who had a good heart and good intentions, but draaaaaaaaaaaaaastically in need of some social ettiquite and open mind. And how else would I be able to reach those people if I wasn't there?? SOMEone had to be the voice to prod them and say "hey guys. that went too far." or "hey, you probably shouldn't say that."

I ended up quitting when a leader of the unit sent a mass text to everyone in the unit of a photo of a japanese family in front of a temple, and someone photoshopped an american bomber in the background saying "Epic photobomb in 3, 2, 1." It sickened me so much that I couldn't stop shaking. I replied accidentally to the whole group of ppl that the text was sent to: Why would you send that to me? That's not funny, it's disgusting and on the anniversary of the boming of hiroshima of all days???
Aaaaaaaaaaand I got the ENTIRE 80some people unit jumping on me for being some butthurt person crying 'racism.' Everyone. From the people who I had helped, who I had slept side by side with in the camp, who I ate with, who I associated with. And of those people only ONE person stood up for me, and not even in front of the others, but sent a text to me on the side. I had never felt more betrayed. I quit reenactment. I couldn't stand the transphobic talk, when someone who seemed so nice, sat around the campfire complaining how the military is no longer a military because they allow "towel heads and trannies" into the ranks. I just couldn't do it anymore. So yes, I understand the feeling of "Nazis. I can't."

I couldn't either. I just fucking couldn't. But I was there, I had made a statement and stood up for what I believed. I called out the people in charge, and explained to them WHY it would be helpful. I was given a talk about how it was necessary military tactic, etc etc, nothing at all to do with the fact that it was a tasteless poorly timed joke. I was given a talk about how 'its okay becasue i have a japanese friend who thought it was funny," and "well this guy suffers PTSD in the marines cuz of the shit he saw, so he just has a dark sense of humor." I cried about this for months. But I tell you, a year or more later, I received a full apology from the person who sent that text, stating that they were wrong to do it.............

I'm telling you, it was worth every scrap of hurt, to have made the difference in ONE person's mind. The tiniest breakthrough can cause a dam to fall. I'm certain that if they were to run across a similar situation, they'll remember how THEY were corrected, and in turn, correct someone, and maybe that person will listen to them, because of their background and where they came from.

I say all of this to answer your question "Why should I reach out to them and show them tolerance? " Because. It's. Worth it.
Because if you want to be better than them, if you want to make a difference, if you want to be someone who won't fall prey to the same egotistical mindset as them, you -have- to suffer the hurt a little while.
If I had simply responded to those people "FUCK YOU ALL YOU'RE FUCKING SICK FUKRUFKFUFUFUCKCUFKC" i guarantee, I would have done nothing for my cause, and all of them would have simply sawn me and gone "yup. butthurt millenial lol"
But reason broke through to the person that it mattered most to, and I believe that it will continue to spread to everyone in that preson's life now too.

Be better than those other people, not by just counting yourself somehow more 'worthy' than them, but by -true- humility. One that suffers for a cause, that loves when other people don't deserve love, and one who can bounce back from a tragedy and turn it into a testimony.
 

tato

Just some spud
*thing we need to "fight"

Sorry I can't edit my post for some reason. Sorry for any other typos x.x
 

tato

Just some spud
Wow, this is so weird. Thanks for mentioning this. I hadn't heard. But I have to say, Nazi Furs vs Antifa Furs...........

I mean, I know people are serious about this, but it's the first I've heard about it, and I'm just lmao right now.

That being said, I know it's a big deal, and I can tell you take it seriously. It caught me by surprise that there could even BE such a thing, much less that there would be Antifa Furs to rise up against it.

So thank you for mentioning it. Broaden my knowledge. You learn something new every day.
^^^
This is exactly why it's so important to have these conversations, and even MORE important that we talk about these things in a RATIONAL way.
Just saying "i can't" or "they're not worthy of my time" does nothing for this person who is just now learning about it.

There are MANY people who don't know the history of national socialsm, as it goes wayyyyyyy back and farther spread than Nazi Germany 1930s-40s XD But how is anyone going to learn about WHY it's bad, and WHAT -exactly- is bad about it, if NO one is talking about it in a rational way? iF everyone's just running around screaming AAAAAAA NAZIS EVIL KILL THEM then those who have no idea what nazis are, are just going to jump on board and go "um, k. NAZIS EVIL KILL THEM" and guess what? That's exactly what happened to a whole nation of people a little over 70 years ago when one man stood up, and said "you know who caused this war? The jews. They're evil." Then anyone who saw a Jew, someoen who LOOKED like a Jew, or anything RELATED to a jew, jumped on the bandwagon of what was deemed at the time to actually be a righteous cause.

Now again, I'm not saying "hey maybe nazis aren't so bad :) " I'm simply saying, be careful of blind hatred without carefully conducted conversations, because you may simply incite irrational fear and hate without the education behind it.
 

tato

Just some spud
Yesssssssssssssssss to everything in this post, my God.

Want to talk about these topics?

- Find reasonable people to talk with. It doesn't necessarily translate to those whom you only agree with, but someone who is capable of disagreeing when they disagree, and agree when they agree. Someone who is able to agree to disagree instead of attacking you personally.
- Extremist or not, treat them as individuals and not as a group. Do not take away their humanity because of their views. Though I'd argue there are exceptions: Terrorists, mass murderers and those who are genuinely irredeemable. "Treat others as you want them to treat you". If someone had the chance to kill you and they would, don't interact with them.
- Do not assume the position of the one you're talking with before the conversation have even started. It's insulting to the very discussion, and quite frankly, intellectually dishonest if your goal is to have a conversation.
- Yes, we have non-violent extremists. I'd argue they could potentially be convinced out of their hateful ways, and it's worth a try. There's a reason we have so many articles/videos about "Ex/Former X" going about, and have had them for years.
- Right place for it. Some places are just not fit for certain topics due to the rules and/or the members on there.

Left-wingers invoke the Nazi cultural boogeyman to shut down conversation. Right-wingers invoke the Communist boogeyman to shut down conversation. Both sides are guilty of shutting down conversation, and it's gotten to the point where I am just amused to see how long it takes until Godwin's law or the one where Communism is mentioned(does the latter one even have a "law"? Similar to that of Godwin's).


All the more reason to find these so-called Neo-Nazis and talk with them, to find out of they are genuinely a National Socialist or just an edgy troll to get a rise out of easily-triggered people.

Just make sure they are a genuine NatSoc and not being labeled a NatSoc by someone else. I am not interested in a "He said she said" scenario where you won't even talk with the one that are being accused of X. Someone accused of being X doesn't translate to them actually being X. Their own beliefs do, hence why it's important to actually ask them first. If they confirm to being a NatSoc, all the more reason to talk them out of it if they are actually reasonable. NatSocs in terms of numbers are sitting at, what, some 1k people across the States in total? Out of 365 million? Your chance of running into one is lower than that of dying in a plane crash.

If we're to address potential Neo-nazi grooming/recruiting we have to address Communist recruiting/grooming as well, seeing as Communism just lead to oppression, a fucked up economy and people dying, which is just as bad as NatSoc. Neither ideology work as they are just as garbage.

At this point I'm so sick of talking about this neo-Nazi boogeyman I get sleepy whenever it's mentioned.

I've highlighted the most important parts of your conversation for the TLDR folk.

It's so important to separate the individual from the ideology. Really realize who your target audience is. Address people as people, not as a group. Recognize that there's a greyscale in everything. For one person, they see the slaughter of a million jews as the only form of racism, while others can turn a finger and point at them saying "Yeah, and you're the guy who says they dont want black people to move in, because they like a low crime rate!!!" There's extremes, and there's a whole slew of hues in between those extremes, and if we're going to start a witch hunt, then we better be careful we don't get burned by our own torch.
 
E

ellaerna

Guest
This is fair, but I think it overlooks something that many people don't take into consideration with these things.

There's a big difference between a white cit het man worried that he's going to be called a racist because he's a conservative when he is still part of the group currently in power and can easily take off his MAGA hat whenever he pleases, and a queer poc who is worried about getting accosted, beat, shot, killed, and otherwise disenfranchised and stripped of their rights by the system they are trapped in. Even now that the former can add "getting punched by antifa at a protest" to their list of concerns, their position is still inherently different than the latter's.

So yeah, it's good to know where the "other side" is coming from and their personal experience, but it's also good to keep in mind that not all experiences are equal.

Edited to correct typos.
 
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Yakamaru

Autumn Wolf
I've highlighted the most important parts of your conversation for the TLDR folk.

It's so important to separate the individual from the ideology. Really realize who your target audience is. Address people as people, not as a group. Recognize that there's a greyscale in everything. For one person, they see the slaughter of a million jews as the only form of racism, while others can turn a finger and point at them saying "Yeah, and you're the guy who says they dont want black people to move in, because they like a low crime rate!!!" There's extremes, and there's a whole slew of hues in between those extremes, and if we're going to start a witch hunt, then we better be careful we don't get burned by our own torch.
I have more, but I don't want to drown people in what is basically saying a lot of the same: "Treat others as you want them to treat you". "Look at the person, not the group".

This is fair, but I think it overlooks something that many people don't take into consideration with these things.

There's a big difference between a white cit het man worried that he's going to be called a racist because he's a conservative when he is still part of the group currently in power and can easily take off his MAGA hat whenever he pleases, and a queer poc who is worried about getting accosted, beat, shot, killed, and otherwise disenfranchised and stripped of their rights by the system they are trapped in. Even now that the former can add "getting punched by antifa at a protest" to their list of concerns, their position is still inherently different than the latter's.

So yeah, it's good to know where the "other side" is coming from and their personal experience, but it's also good to keep in mind that not all experiences are equal.

Edited to correct typos.
Indeed. No two experiences are exactly the same, but they shape how we perceive the world. However, our perception can quite easily be wrong, especially if you compare your experiences and perception of the world with others. It's a matter of having the ability to consider that your view of the world is wrong and/or incomplete, something I've found out this past year alone. I've been more wrong than I have been right, and it's liberating.
 

tato

Just some spud
Ah yes, all of this stuff is great in theory. But when you have someone who's emotionally charged and having their feelings hurt that something they thought was right for the longest time is wrong, or what they use to define themselves is being called into judgement, things tend to get escalated.

Example; you have someone who views himself as alt right, because deep down he feels threatened by the rising of groups like the antifa, and wants to continue his american lifestyle where he has guns and hotdogs to his content. When you give reasons why the alt right in general is not the greatest, he's going to flip out on you because he thinks you want to take his values (in this case, hotdogs and guns) away from him, as you're not supporting his side.

On the other hand, say you have a girl who's been living in poverty her whole life, her parents just made the bill each time. She goes to school and learns about the transcendentalists... How they viewed nature and humanity, and the goodness in people. She begins to think that people are inherently good and should help those in need to a fault, relating it back to the struggles in her life. She joins antifa because she dreams of a world where people can share everything, no one goes hungry, or worries about losing their house. When you try to tell her she's wrong, she thinks you want to let the elite ride the lower classes and she goes back to the stress of living in her poverty ridden home.

You can actually find in some instances, that people aren't arguing the topics at hand, they're arguing how it relates to their emotions or current/previous situations. They would rather ignore the doings of the whole to focus in the ideology they've created in the group for a means to their own end.

It's always really good to let people know where you're coming from in an argument first, instead of just jumping right into why you don't like antifa or the alt right or really whatever it is. It's actually funny because most of the time, arguments are held about the right way to reach a common end, when both people want the same thing. So just as a heads up, let people know where you're coming from on top of trying to be open and understand where they're coming from. That way everyone learns, and people do not get emotionally charged and butt hurt.

Obviously this won't work on trolls, who feed off of drama and the lols.


I agree, you can be personable about your argument and still be tactful however!
By all means, use your experiences to explain your situation. It's all part of having an honest conversation. And when you talk about your experiences, that's what opens others up to see you as human.

Part of having an objective conversation is one where you discuss things that can not be argued by opinions. For example, if I say "All conservatives just hate me because I'm gay" that is subjective. It's putting words in the mouth of people who didn't necessarily say that, just becasue some of the people in that group do. However, if you say, "I am gay, and one time I went to a church where people told me I wasn't wanted because of my life style, and it hurt me emotionally," who can argue that? Who would be offended by that? When we tell our story and our experiences, we have to be careful not to name call, put words in others' mouths, or use subjective language that incites people to bring up their defenses. That is ultimately how we can reach people.

I used an example you can read above how I was deeply wounded by a poorly timed, distasteful joke (an image of a Japanese family standing in front of a temple with a photoshopped american bomber behind it saying "epic photobomb in 3, 2, 1). In the conversation I had with the person who sent that WHY it offended me, as someone of asian decent. I told them how it made me feel to see an image of a bomb about to strike a family in front of a holy place; how my grandparents lived in the Philippines during it, and how even they wouldn't laugh at a hiroshima joke. I brought up the question if he would find it funny if I sent him a photo of americans at pearl harbor with a japanese bomber in the background going "epic photobomb in 3, 2, 1" and suggested that if that offended him but the alternative didn't, then it might be the fact that he can't relate to the race of people. I explained to him WHY it was not just "dark humor" but could be perceived as racism. It didn't affect him at the time. He excused himself with a thousand excuses, but a year or more later, came to apologize to me and tell me that his behavior was wrong and unacceptable and saw why I was offended.

And I toooooootally get you, and I wish folks would have more of a freedom to express your point of view. The whole "I lived this way, and suddenly my lifestyle is being challenged and I'm suddenly called a terrible horrible person"
I believe this is why MANY people labeled as racists are simply clinging MORE to their outdated ways. Because instead of someone having a respectful conversation with them about why certain old life style ways are harmful to other people and how it can be changed without compromising who you are, they're instead being attacked by SJW's, labeled side by side with people who literally hate people of color and want them -dead.- It can certainly make one put up defensive walls and go "you know what? screw you. I hate you even more now. and maybe that's why ppl hate your group"

By not acting rationally, we are harming our own cause.

I can also relate as someone who is a recovering conservative asshole XDDDD I grew up with my dad's beliefs he taught me that were wrong: "Black people don't have good jobs because they don't try hard enough. Racism doesn't exist anymore" it was disgusting and wrong and I'll be the first to admit that I actually used to think that way because I was told that. And that "burger flippers are just lazy kids who don't apply themselves to getting better jobs." And things like "Feminists are just whiny bitches who overreact because women have all the same rights as men so they should just shut up." And other such toxic disgusting things I wish I could erase from my life.

Then I grew old enough to form my own opinions and see people around me. I saw my black friends failing to get to the higher positions in their jobs, doing all the same things if not more hard work than those around them. I saw how my white dad would win employee of the year, year after year despite knowing how lazy he is, and yet his black female coworker who's worked there as long as he has and who is favored by everyone around her, has never won it once in over 20 years working there. I saw my ex work TWO 'burger flipper' minimum wage jobs and struggle to get enough money to move out. I saw my classmates with college degrees and tens of thousands of dollars in debt go out into the working world and FAIL to get a job in their career. I saw my female friends be told it was their fault for being raped, and being labled as whiners just because some guy wanted to degrade her. I experienced things, AND above all, I had friends who honestly, but tactfully told me what a horrible person I was XDDDD Friends who I trusted enough to value their opinion told me I was wrong. Yes. It offended me. Yes, I fought back. Yes, it ended some friendships, but over time, thanks to people who corrected me honestly, I realized just how wrong I had been and I feel terrible about it. I am changed thanks to honest conversations where people had to sit my ignorant ass down and say "dude, you can't just say that. Here's facts on why you're wrong. Who told you that was right?" XD

I am constantly having my values challenged and I am better for it. It doesn't mean I have given up any of my true values either though. I still don't agree with a lot of left wing politics when it comes to my finances as a small business owner. But I also don't agree with the sentiment of a lot of right wing opinions. I can no longer laugh at some of my favorite movies growing up, but I can still hold a special place for them in my heart. Just because I am being changed doesn't mean WHO I am has to change. I am still a proud american, but that doesn't mean I have to blow off the issues that people are really facing today. I can still say I am from the south and I'm not ashamed of being born in Virginia, while still conceding to the fact that a flag that I have seen around my every day life, causes real emotional pain to people who grew up with the same symbol meaning something vastly different for them. And when it comes to my right to wave around a dumb flag, versus hurting the feelings of people I care about, I'd much rather tuck that away into a little memoir box of the person I used to be but am no longer. XD

The message needs to be out there that you can still be a gun toting, hot dog eating, proud american without being labeled as a criminal. We can identify with those things which don't adversely affect other people. We can still hold on to our culture, while recognizing that certain aspects might need to be modified for the comfort of others. It doesn't mean we're changing who we are because 'of some whiny person,' but rather, we do it because AS americans, TRUE Americans, we -should- strive to live harmoniously next to people who are vastly different.
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
There's a big difference between a white cit het man worried that he's going to be called a racist because he's a conservative when he is still part of the group currently in power and can easily take off his MAGA hat whenever he pleases, and a queer poc who is worried about getting accosted, beat, shot, killed, and otherwise disenfranchised and stripped of their rights by the system they are trapped in. Even now that the former can add "getting punched by antifa at a protest" to their list of concerns, their position is still inherently different than the latter's.
Absolutely there's a difference. However, we mustn't forget that being called racist, or a nazi, or misogynist, or whatever else along those lines when you've not earned it? Is fucking hurtful. I'm white, and I'm not American, so I can't know how your (presumably American given the MAGA reference) queer poc feels. However, I know that it feels pretty damn shitty to have a reputation of being "nazi" slapped on me. I'm not male, I'm not straight, I'm certainly nowhere near conservative. If I get called a nazi, and people call for me to be shunned from one of the primary communities I am part of, I think it's pretty understandable if your hypothetical cishet conservative feels like he has his back against the wall.

Quite honestly, dismissing his concerns kind of comes off as a "starving children in Africa" argument. Someone else has it worse than he does, but that doesn't mean he should be obligated to weather attacks on his character (which unfounded accusations of racism very much are), either.

Because instead of someone having a respectful conversation with them about why certain old life style ways are harmful to other people and how it can be changed without compromising who you are, they're instead being attacked by SJW's, labeled side by side with people who literally hate people of color and want them -dead.- It can certainly make one put up defensive walls and go "you know what? screw you. I hate you even more now. and maybe that's why ppl hate your group"
So much this. The approach of going in guns blazing and lumping in people who carry on traditions they grew up with with people who actively seek to harm other groups has soured me on so many groups/movements in the social justice sphere. I may share many values with them, but their methods have just made me go "nope, I can't reconcile treating people that way with the person I want to be". I used to come on a lot stronger in opposition of shitty values and thoughtless word usage, when I was young and dumb, and I'm so grateful to the friends who sat me down and told me what I was doing wasn't the right way to go about it.
 
E

ellaerna

Guest
Quite honestly, dismissing his concerns kind of comes off as a "starving children in Africa" argument. Someone else has it worse than he does, but that doesn't mean he should be obligated to weather attacks on his character (which unfounded accusations of racism very much are), either.
I'm not calling for a dismissal, but rather perspective. Hurtful things hurt. No two ways about it. But acting like being called a racist is the same as being black in America (and you're right, I am from America. Chicago, actually) is disingenuous and that false equivalency is often used to dismiss the queer poc and their issues.

Both are issues, but it's important to remember what everyone really has at stake. A white guy can take off his hat or his polo or go by a different name online and circumvent the consequences pretty successfully. A black person cannot take off their blackness. A queer person can try to not to be openly queer, but they cannot stop loving who they love. Someone who is actively being harmed by society and these groups can't just stop getting harassed because the power is not in their hands.
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
I'm not calling for a dismissal, but rather perspective. Hurtful things hurt. No two ways about it.
They do, and I will say that while I don't believe you intended to be hurtful, you do come off as dismissive, and your suggestion that someone whose reputation has been wrecked by accusations of racism could just change their online name... Really stings. I can't say what it's like for your hypothetical cishet man, but what it would entail for me would be discarding a significant portion of my identity, over something that is based in confirmation/sample bias and lies in the first place. Passing as straight/monoamorous/vanilla is hell of a lot easier than starting my online life over from scratch would be to me.

But acting like being called a racist is the same as being black in America (and you're right, I am from America. Chicago, actually) is disingenuous and that false equivalency is often used to dismiss the queer poc and their issues.
Acting like there's a dichotomy between the two is absolutely inappropriate, yes. They are separate issues, very different in nature, and there's no inherent conflict between them. They are not at all the same thing, and I hope I didn't come across as suggesting they are. Concern about being unfairly labeled a bigot is not sound grounds for dismissing the concerns of a minority group; if anything, it'd be the opposite. I am not defending that behavior.

I am, however, saying that I have seen a pattern among many people engaged in social justice, of underestimating how hurtful, and sometimes harmful, it can be to be on the receiving end of accusations of racism. Speaking of the general pattern, not you specifically, there appears to me to be a perception that these accusations are never undeserved, and/or fall in the realm of uncomfortable truth. Acknowledging the social stigma that is associated with racism costs little, as does acknowledging that mistakes are sometimes made and result in innocent people being hurt.

Ultimately, we should avoid causing our fellow humans undue pain. Comparing the pain of two fundamentally different situations isn't relevant to that. They're both pain, and I don't wish either of them on anyone.
 

Wulf Canavar

"He flashed a knowing grin...."
^^^
This is exactly why it's so important to have these conversations, and even MORE important that we talk about these things in a RATIONAL way.
Just saying "i can't" or "they're not worthy of my time" does nothing for this person who is just now learning about it.

There are MANY people who don't know the history of national socialsm, as it goes wayyyyyyy back and farther spread than Nazi Germany 1930s-40s XD But how is anyone going to learn about WHY it's bad, and WHAT -exactly- is bad about it, if NO one is talking about it in a rational way? iF everyone's just running around screaming AAAAAAA NAZIS EVIL KILL THEM then those who have no idea what nazis are, are just going to jump on board and go "um, k. NAZIS EVIL KILL THEM" and guess what? That's exactly what happened to a whole nation of people a little over 70 years ago when one man stood up, and said "you know who caused this war? The jews. They're evil." Then anyone who saw a Jew, someoen who LOOKED like a Jew, or anything RELATED to a jew, jumped on the bandwagon of what was deemed at the time to actually be a righteous cause.

Now again, I'm not saying "hey maybe nazis aren't so bad :) " I'm simply saying, be careful of blind hatred without carefully conducted conversations, because you may simply incite irrational fear and hate without the education behind it.


Well said
 
E

ellaerna

Guest
They do, and I will say that while I don't believe you intended to be hurtful, you do come off as dismissive, and your suggestion that someone whose reputation has been wrecked by accusations of racism could just change their online name... Really stings. I can't say what it's like for your hypothetical cishet man, but what it would entail for me would be discarding a significant portion of my identity, over something that is based in confirmation/sample bias and lies in the first place. Passing as straight/monoamorous/vanilla is hell of a lot easier than starting my online life over from scratch would be to me.
You're assuming that their reputation is actually on the line.

I know you went through some stuff. I'm not trying to comment on that or make you personally feel shitty. I'm sorry if I do. But in my experience, the people who tout being called a racist as a huge grievance are the ones in a position where it wouldn't necessarily mean anything at all. A racist who is in a position of power- like being white, male, cis, straight- can easily hide their racism so it is not a problem. They can go to rallies and then take their polos off the next day like nothing ever happened. A poster online can make an alt account to spew hatred if they don't want their main to get banned. And even if that claim sticks, it doesn't always (and sometimes it feels like hardly ever) amount to anything. They don't get fired or divorced or jailed or harmed in a lot of real ways that people on the other side of the equation do.

And I'm not talking about the people falsely accused. False accusations suck. No doubt. And we need to get better at not throwing around words so much that they lose all meaning. But people who are actual factual racists, bigots, and yes, even Nazis, like to make it seem like their pain is the same as the pain they inflict. That because someone on Twitter called them out, that they are just as oppressed as any minority.


Ultimately, we should avoid causing our fellow humans undue pain. Comparing the pain of two fundamentally different situations isn't relevant to that. They're both pain, and I don't wish either of them on anyone.
True, but this was about discussing sensitive topics with someone who is in opposition to you. And part of that was knowing the other side. Part of knowing the other side is knowing how your pain and feelings relate to and compare to theirs. Because not all experiences are the same. Not all pain is the same. And sometimes a little hurting has to happen to move forward.
 
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