I have some issues with CoC 2.7's Update...

[GreenZone]

It's a rather important distinction that the original accusation was made by a third party and to some degree went viral first. It changes the dynamics of the situation significantly, from "these people saw Tim Pool near this individual and assaulted him" (which is what your summary implied) to "these people believed an assertion on social media that some people caught in a photograph with Tim Pool and this individual were fascists and decided to assault them" - while assaulting them was bad in either case, what you got was basically the vigilante equivalent of SWATing.


The common ideology, as appears to be understood by the vast majority of FA users I've seen supporting Antifa-branded accounts (and given my history on staff I can pretty much guarantee I've seen a larger portion of that demographic than you have), is being outspoken about opposing fascism. You are conflating ideology with methods, and as long as the objectionable methods are not being advocated on FA, FA has no problem with the ideology. That is pretty much what FA's statement means, and the general underlying reasoning I see as being behind the decision.


Nope. Fictional content designed to communicate a message that "these ideologies are not okay"; I draw plenty of violent vent art, too, doesn't mean I am a proponent of literal violence. I find nazi-punching art incredibly tiresome, myself, but hey, if that's how they want to vent their anger and it works for them, that's their prerogative.

The "group" accounts based around anti-fascist ideology on FA are not engaging in promoting actual violence. Any individuals actually making statements encouraging violence are already having action taken against them. I've seen a number of Antifa-punching submissions and depictions of nazi violence, as well, and they aren't encouraging RL violence, either.

can you stop defending Antifa Mungo i my heart is actually racing with Anger

they are violent i have a friend who lost an eye to antifa simply because he was walking back from lunch in Uniform they defaced memorial to Vietnam vets with "this is a no Fascism zone" posters they tried to break into a military base causing a 6 hour lockdown

They have stabbed cops in the EU they have BOMBED places

the US branch of Antifa are more tame than the rest of the world but they are still domestic terrorists and you don't seem to understand their ideology they are criminals and thugs if you represent capitalism in any way be it a cop a soldier or a paramedic you are a "Nazi" if you do not confirm to their extremist communist views you are a "Nazi"

in the UK they are breaking into peoples homes who go on holiday and squatting because they don't believe in property ownership

do you understand Mungo

Antifa is the literal left version of a Nazi what they are doing is not opposing fascism they are committing it themselves

 

[GreenZone]

you don't seem to understand by harbouring these people you are allowing violence because you don't seem to understand what they define as a Nazi and that's literally anyone who's not pro Communist

they attack liberals as well Mungo stop promoting this view that they're noble warriors standing up to Fascism

 

[Cawdabra]

Just an amusing video.

 

[Ramjet]

you don't seem to understand by harbouring these people you are allowing violence because you don't seem to understand what they define as a Nazi and that's literally anyone who's not pro Communist

they attack liberals as well Mungo stop promoting this view that they're noble warriors standing up to Fascism

Their not as violent in the US because alot of American States have CCW laws...

They can't go too far with direct kinetic violence,they know they'd get smoked...

reason.com: Antifa Has Backed Its Message With Violence for Decades in Europe

 

[Oblique Lynx]

you don't seem to understand by harbouring these people you are allowing violence because you don't seem to understand what they define as a Nazi and that's literally anyone who's not pro Communist

they attack liberals as well Mungo stop promoting this view that they're noble warriors standing up to Fascism

This destruction they caused is disgusting. That's not protesting or fighting fascism. That's causing massive amounts of property damage against most everyone in their vicinity

 

[webkilla]

It's a rather important distinction that the original accusation was made by a third party and to some degree went viral first. It changes the dynamics of the situation significantly, from "these people saw Tim Pool near this individual and assaulted him" (which is what your summary implied) to "these people believed an assertion on social media that some people caught in a photograph with Tim Pool and this individual were fascists and decided to assault them" - while assaulting them was bad in either case, what you got was basically the vigilante equivalent of SWATing.

Vigilante equivalent of SWATing? Vigilante in what sense? Vigilante means civilian taking the law in their own hand - exactly what law was being upheld or enforced when innocent journalists were being targeted here?

It was guilt by vague association - and whatever antifa thug that assaulted the guy (not tim poole, the guy tim is interviewing in the video) seemed more than willing to play judge, jury and executioner.

The common ideology, as appears to be understood by the vast majority of FA users I've seen supporting Antifa-branded accounts (and given my history on staff I can pretty much guarantee I've seen a larger portion of that demographic than you have), is being outspoken about opposing fascism. You are conflating ideology with methods, and as long as the objectionable methods are not being advocated on FA, FA has no problem with the ideology. That is pretty much what FA's statement means, and the general underlying reasoning I see as being behind the decision.

highlighted for relevance

What you appear to understand doesn't matter - you can have all the rose-tinted goggles on that you like, it doesn't change that a ton of antifa people are promoting political violence against people they don't like - just like what parts of, if not not most of, the alt-right also does.

Opposing fascism? Yes, opposing it with violence. Ideology informs methods - and if the ideology is that of militant anti-fascism, then violence seems to be a core tenet. Again, "bash the fash" was a viral meme for quite a while right after antifa member randomly assaulted that alt-right moron live on camera (which incidental made the guy famous, great work there genius)

You seem to be in denial of just how violent this little club is - or how violent its members at least would like to be. I can easily imagine that most of the FA-based supporters of antifa might not ever get to 'bash the fash' IRL - but they're still clearly quite ok with posting gore-filled propaganda.

Nope. Fictional content designed to communicate a message that "these ideologies are not okay"; I draw plenty of violent vent art, too, doesn't mean I am a proponent of literal violence. I find nazi-punching art incredibly tiresome, myself, but hey, if that's how they want to vent their anger and it works for them, that's their prerogative.

so... by your logic here, pro-nazi propaganda is perfectly fine? I'm glad to her that - I could barely make out your logic over that massive double standard you seem to have there.

The "group" accounts based around anti-fascist ideology on FA are not engaging in promoting actual violence. Any individuals actually making statements encouraging violence are already having action taken against them. I've seen a number of Antifa-punching submissions and depictions of nazi violence, as well, and they aren't encouraging RL violence, either.

Doesn't matter - the supporters, the random FA members who like antifa - are doing all that work for it. I mean, come on - you're basically saying "I'm not seeing these people doing anything bad right now, so they can't possible have done anything bad ever, or want to do anything bad ever".

And you must have the thickest proscription rose-tinted goggles to say that there. Are you legit arguing that propaganda depicting political violence isn't encouraging RL violence? Good grief you are a piece of work.

 

[Oblique Lynx]

Nope. Fictional content designed to communicate a message that "these ideologies are not okay"; I draw plenty of violent vent art, too, doesn't mean I am a proponent of literal violence. I find nazi-punching art incredibly tiresome, myself, but hey, if that's how they want to vent their anger and it works for them, that's their prerogative.

Does that mean I'm allowed to draw art of a Nazi punching an ANTIFA member?

 

[JakeCWolf]

Wonder if Dragoneer ever emerged from his Twitter hiding spot to acknowledge that pending lawsuit or not? He's only got a few more days, or there's gonna be a warrant out for his arrest. The American justice system is nothing to take lightly.

 

[Cawdabra]

Does that mean I'm allowed to draw art of a Nazi punching an ANTIFA member?

Ha! I think we all know the answer to that one.

 

[webkilla]

Ha! I think we all know the answer to that one.

and there-in lies the hypocrisy

If its ok to depict political violence one way - but not the other way - then... then the system is broken

 

[BahgDaddy]

I


I actually posted sources debunking this notion that right wing terrorism outnumbered Islamic. Even after 9/11 Islamic terrorism has killed 100s more post 9/11 than right wing extremeists.

My numbers disagree with yours. Can you post that link again? Because we've got a lot of right won terrorism going on right now - the shooter in Florida recently was one such example. Also I'm keeping the example constrained to the US. Perhaps you weren't aware of that.

 

[BahgDaddy]

FUCK ME!

I almost had an aneurysm trying to read this.

That's not even what we're trying to say in the first place. I'm saying Hold the same standard, and apply it!

If you ban violent political rhetoric and imagery from the right, ban it from the left too. They Explicitly call out organizations on the right, while BLATANTLY disregarding that coming from the left.

First off, Politifact has already proven their incredibly left bias, as I'll show below.




And Even then, it is incredibly vague! Going through the actual article in which Politico Defined "Alt-right" as, they actually had it until they said:



The two are nothing alike. Culture is a set of values, Race is a genetic trait. I don't give a fuck about race. Culture however, is very much something that should be subject to skepticism. And it is then perfectly and objectively acceptable after looking through those values to find one better, or to find others lacking.

The moment they added this to their definition, they've included every single skeptic of any foreign set of values, which includes anyone who leans right wing.



EXCEPT THAT THE CoC SPECIFICALLY DOES!




I'd actually agree with that, but I'm more than certain it won't be policed this way. And that's the issue; the biased moderation of this website. I have no confidence in FA to be consistent, and fair in this issue. In fact, I'd be willing to make a bet.

I'll create images similar to the ones presented by @webkilla, with someone wearing a confederate flag being brutalized by Antifa members, and then do the same vice versa. How much would you be willing to bet that the Pro-Antifa images will remain, when the Pro-Confederacy ones will not?




Except we were talking about Antifa. That was, as STATED IN THE ORIGINAL POST, the biggest problem I had with the entire CoC. They specifically give Antifa a free Pass!

Guess what? WE'RE SAYING THAT TOO! But the problem is that even when defined by Politico, Anyone on the right wing could be included in "Alt-Right."




Oh, fuck off. You just specifically cherry picked Less than half of a sentence in an attempt to preform character assassination of your opponent. He said in Literally the next half of the sentence;

He wasn't saying you couldn't correct what you said, he was saying you absolutely should if you want to retain any kind of actual validity or legitimacy in your political argument!

You want to talk about shitty debate tactics? This is a constant from the left. They stack the deck against their opponents with the most disingenuous character assassinations, often without even bothering to prove it. Calling people "Racists" Is the GO-TO tactic for lefts. That's why you get things like President Trump. (Guess what, I don't like the guy either!) People were sick of the left constantly slandering others with no real proof other than their own perceived injustices, even going as far as to fabricate the evidence as you literally just did.

Hey, I'm not paying your medical bills, so try to avoid debates that make your heart go that fast! If you can't take it, don't dish it baby!

 

[Reshizard]

Hey, I'm not paying your medical bills, so try to avoid debates that make your heart go that fast! If you can't take it, don't dish it baby!

Oh yes. I said it before, if anyone talks politics, they painted a target on themselves. I am not above this either

 

[BahgDaddy]

Something to think about:

The alt right is racist.

AntiFa is opposed to racism. That's one of the main definition of AntiFa.

If you apologize for the alt right.... AND try to throw AntiFa under the bus... well we pretty know what you are, now don't we?

 

[ResolutionBlaze]

My numbers disagree with yours. Can you post that link again? Because we've got a lot of right won terrorism going on right now - the shooter in Florida recently was one such example. Also I'm keeping the example constrained to the US. Perhaps you weren't aware of that.

My example doesnthe same.

I'll send you the links in a bit I'm just exhausted rn

 

[webkilla]

AntiFa is opposed to racism. That's one of the main definition of AntiFa.

If you apologize for the alt right.... AND try to throw AntiFa under the bus... well we pretty know what you are, now don't we?

oh that's cute

no, antifa jokers tend to harp on about being against "fascism" - though, from what I can tell pretty much none of them really know what fascism even means these days. They just use it as a catch-all for anyone who's to the right of their politics.

And then you follow up with a nice and poorly veiled "if you're not with us, you're an alt-right supporter" threat. How utterly pathetic.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: if antifa propaganda is allowed on FA, then far right propaganda should be allowed on equal terms - calls to violence of any form should, of course, not be allowed. Alternatly ban all of it and be done with it.

Now, if you can contort your brain-meats in a feat of mental gymnastics to make that out out to be "apologizing" of the alt right, or throwing antifa under the bus, then go ahead... call me alt right - because that's all that it'll be: It'll be a moron on the internet calling me something that I am not, but it'll go really well to demonstrate how idiotic antifa supporters are and how happy they are to call anyone who disagrees with them for alt right supporters or worse.

 

[BahgDaddy]

oh that's cute

no, antifa jokers tend to harp on about being against "fascism" - though, from what I can tell pretty much none of them really know what fascism even means these days. They just use it as a catch-all for anyone who's to the right of their politics.

And then you follow up with a nice and poorly veiled "if you're not with us, you're an alt-right supporter" threat. How utterly pathetic.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: if antifa propaganda is allowed on FA, then far right propaganda should be allowed on equal terms - calls to violence of any form should, of course, not be allowed. Alternatly ban all of it and be done with it.

Now, if you can contort your brain-meats in a feat of mental gymnastics to make that out out to be "apologizing" of the alt right, or throwing antifa under the bus, then go ahead... call me alt right - because that's all that it'll be: It'll be a moron on the internet calling me something that I am not, but it'll go really well to demonstrate how idiotic antifa supporters are and how happy they are to call anyone who disagrees with them for alt right supporters or worse.

"Oh that's cute"
"How utterly pathetic"
"Contort your brain meats"
"A moron on the internet"
"Idiotic AntiFa supporters"

My my, looks like I struck a nerve there! Too bad it's all wrong since I'm not an AntiFa supporter. I think they're violence is uncalled for and that we should solve problems with logic, reason, and public debate, not screechy protesting. Same goes for the alt right with their innumerable beer belly demonstrations. (They're not actually protesting leftism. They're just advertising their version of the American Dream, which usually seems to be some form of belching on your trailer steps while mama cooks meth.)

 

[Oblique Lynx]

"Oh that's cute"
"How utterly pathetic"
"Contort your brain meats"
"A moron on the internet"
"Idiotic AntiFa supporters"

My my, looks like I struck a nerve there! Too bad it's all wrong since I'm not an AntiFa supporter. I think they're violence is uncalled for and that we should solve problems with logic, reason, and public debate, not screechy protesting. Same goes for the alt right with their innumerable beer belly demonstrations. (They're not actually protesting leftism. They're just advertising their version of the American Dream, which usually seems to be some form of belching on your trailer steps while mama cooks meth.)

It's either rednecks swilling moonshine and spouting hate

or anti-fascists using fascist tactics to alienate

Both sides seem pretty shitty to be under

 

[GreenZone]

If you apologize for the alt right.... AND try to throw AntiFa under the bus... well we pretty know what you are, now don't we?

yeah a centrist

you cannot trade one evil for another

 

[BahgDaddy]

It's either rednecks swilling moonshine and spouting hate

or anti-fascists using fascist tactics to alienate

Both sides seem pretty shitty to be under

Yeah.

yeah a centrist

you cannot trade one evil for another

I'm not a centrist. I'm a leftist, basically a socialist.

And I never said you could.

Try again.

 

[LuxVolans]

Hey, I'm not paying your medical bills, so try to avoid debates that make your heart go that fast! If you can't take it, don't dish it baby!

Yet you didn't respond to nor refute anything I said.

Something to think about:

The alt right is racist.

AntiFa is opposed to racism. That's one of the main definition of AntiFa.

If you apologize for the alt right.... AND try to throw AntiFa under the bus... well we pretty know what you are, now don't we?

Except that I'm NOT apologizing for the Alt-Right. We are openly condemning it.

However, I disagree with the vague, nearly all encompassing definition of Alt-Right as described in the article provided that then begins to include people who actually aren't. That's why I stated in the original post that I wanted to know exactly what they defined Alt-Right as, and who the "reputable organizations" were.

You are creating this "Us vs Them" Dichotomy automatically attributing those who disagree with you into the category of "Racists" without actually proving that they are racist. You are the one dealing in absolutes.

And the problem is: That logic goes both ways. By your own definitions, You are now affiliated with, in support of, or might as well be a member of AntiFa.

Taking your argument and reversing it: "If You're not a racist, and you stand against the Alt-Right, You MUST be a member of AntiFa."

Do you see how destructive this logic and train of thought is?


This is why I subscribe to a much more simple and much more solid way of defining these lines.

You are on the Alt-Right if you say you're in the Alt-Right.

You are a member of AntiFa if you say you're in AntiFa.

This is why, once again, I said I wanted to see what they defined it as, and what their source was.

It's also why I am so passionate about them maintaining the same standards. The Alt-Right is a radical extremist group. AntiFa is ALSO a radical extremist group. Treat them the same. If you don't allow one, don't allow the other. Acting otherwise is just blatant hypocrisy.

Consistency please FA.

 

[BahgDaddy]

Yet you didn't respond to nor refute anything I said.




Except that I'm NOT apologizing for the Alt-Right. We are openly condemning it.

However, I disagree with the vague, nearly all encompassing definition of Alt-Right as described in the article provided that then begins to include people who actually aren't. That's why I stated in the original post that I wanted to know exactly what they defined Alt-Right as, and who the "reputable organizations" were.

You are creating this "Us vs Them" Dichotomy automatically attributing those who disagree with you into the category of "Racists" without actually proving that they are racist. You are the one dealing in absolutes.

And the problem is: That logic goes both ways. By your own definitions, You are now affiliated with, in support of, or might as well be a member of AntiFa.

Taking your argument and reversing it: "If You're not a racist, and you stand against the Alt-Right, You MUST be a member of AntiFa."

Do you see how destructive this logic and train of thought is?


This is why I subscribe to a much more simple and much more solid way of defining these lines.

You are on the Alt-Right if you say you're in the Alt-Right.

You are a member of AntiFa if you say you're in AntiFa.

This is why, once again, I said I wanted to see what they defined it as, and what their source was.

It's also why I am so passionate about them maintaining the same standards. The Alt-Right is a radical extremist group. AntiFa is ALSO a radical extremist group. Treat them the same. If you don't allow one, don't allow the other. Acting otherwise is just blatant hypocrisy.

Consistency please FA.

I never said you were apologizing for the alt right. I don't see you doing that.

And no. I'm not casting everyone who disagrees with me into the basket of racists. You seem to not be understanding my arguments, despite how short I've made them. Sad!

""If You're not a racist, and you stand against the Alt-Right, You MUST be a member of AntiFa." No, the logic doesn't follow, and it's not a reversal of what I said. A reversal of, "If you apologize for the alt right.... AND try to throw AntiFa under the bus... well we pretty know what you are, now don't we?" would be something like "If you apologize for antifa, and try to throw the Alt Right under the bus, we pretty much know what you are." Except it doesn't follow what you are, because it's a nonsense statement now. I guess you'd be... *le gasp* NOT A RACIST! Hide the children...

And no. You're an alt-righter if your ideology matches enough of the things the alt right believes. Even if you're not actually an alt-righter, if enough of the views match up, it's fair to say those views have no place in society and every effort should be made to keep them from running our society. Right wing populist nationalism is currently the biggest threat to liberal democracy. Everyone has an obligation to try and keep that dream alive, and that starts by fighting against these views and keeping them out of government.

Your arguments are cleverly styled pseudo logical rants. I can say what you say in 5 paragraphs, in 5 sentences, because I know what I stand for and don't need to mentally masturbate first.

 

[webkilla]

"Oh that's cute"
"How utterly pathetic"
"Contort your brain meats"
"A moron on the internet"
"Idiotic AntiFa supporters"

My my, looks like I struck a nerve there! Too bad it's all wrong since I'm not an AntiFa supporter. I think they're violence is uncalled for and that we should solve problems with logic, reason, and public debate, not screechy protesting. Same goes for the alt right with their innumerable beer belly demonstrations. (They're not actually protesting leftism. They're just advertising their version of the American Dream, which usually seems to be some form of belching on your trailer steps while mama cooks meth.)

You can belly-ache all you want - my points still stand

and for someone who claims not to be an antifa-supporter, you sure seem keen on trying to present them in the nicest way possible - though if you sincerely mean what you say about not wanting violence, and preferring logic, reason and public debate then I'm all there with you.

Mind you, you go to the exact same name-calling with the "beer belly demonstrations" - so no moral high horse you, but nice sentiment.

 

[webkilla]

Hey gang - 2 the ranting gryphon had a fun little adventure investigating the Alt Furry

His discovery: No they're no nazis, and they share a ton of porn. He even asked why the furries there, were there - and got a lot of very interesting non-nazi related stories that seemed to center on having been abused by SJWs and antifa supporters, and thus felt pushed out of the regular fandom.

Take from that what you want - but he found no evidence that it was a vile hive of racism and white supremacy. Sure, there were a few white supremacists there, but there were also people there who challenged them on their ideas and took up a discussion on the topic, presenting alternate viewpoints.

2 basically sums it up talking about how left wing censors are taking over the furry fandom and excluding anyone who aren't agreeing with them.

This is why antifa is bad. This why the CoC needs to reflect that

 

[quoting_mungo]

can you stop defending Antifa Mungo i my heart is actually racing with Anger

Can you actually read my posts, GreenZone, instead of assuming that I'm doing something I'm not? :V
I have no particular love for Antifa. I think a lot of counter-protestors are going about it the wrong way (to say the least). However, I recognize that there is still a difference in character between an ideology that inherently involves bigotry, such as white supremacism, and an ideology that rejects such beliefs. I'm trying to explain this difference, and how in the light of it the administrative decisions FA has made make sense.

I'd personally still just as soon see "group" accounts branded "Antifa" off the site, but not for reasons relating to COC 2.7 or them supposedly being a "hate group".

Vigilante equivalent of SWATing? Vigilante in what sense? Vigilante means civilian taking the law in their own hand - exactly what law was being upheld or enforced when innocent journalists were being targeted here?

It was guilt by vague association - and whatever antifa thug that assaulted the guy (not tim poole, the guy tim is interviewing in the video) seemed more than willing to play judge, jury and executioner.

That's a flawed question. No law is being upheld in SWATing - it's harassment (and endangerment) by sending police to raid innocent people. Here, the individual(s) who identified Tim Pool and co as nationalists on Twitter, painted them as targets for vigilante "justice" (keep in mind that vigilantism isn't only about civilians taking into their own hands to uphold actual law, but also to uphold law that they feel should be in place). You are still painting the situation as being entirely based on the judgment of the individuals committing the assault, which doesn't jive with the account in Pool's video.

Does that mean I'm allowed to draw art of a Nazi punching an ANTIFA member?

As long as it's a generic character (or a character belonging to someone who's explicitly okay with it) getting punched, and not the fursona of some Antifa-identifying furry, far as I'm aware, yes. I see nothing in policy indicating otherwise, and I know it would have been permitted when I was on staff same as the nazi-punching work. That said, it's probably kind of social suicide to post such.