• Fur Affinity Forums are governed by Fur Affinity's Rules and Policies. Links and additional information can be accessed in the Site Information Forum.

"I'm not gonna take your commission because you're right/left wing"

Liseran Thistle

They/Them
(note: I am a gay woman myself, I was just raised christian. I am not defending the baker or the couple, but I kinda think the baker was being an asshole, just a little.)

Honestly, I feel like we kind of head into murky territory when we start saying that business owners reserve the right to refuse anyone, because it sounds like a lawsuit just waiting to happen (Which is what happened here with the cake thing, so go figure.) I mean yeah you can say "I don't serve nazis, so leave" because thats a shitty political idea revolving around murdering a bunch of people who are different than you. But if you say "I don't serve gay people because it's against my religion" than it's just blatant blasphemy in the face of God and the patrons in the shop. I was raised in a christian household, and whenever any wack job says "I don't cater to gay people because thats against the bible" they're basically liars. See, God does in fact say that stupid line about man not laying with another man, and a million other people have already corrected the translation error and called this line out as being directly tampered with and shit (If you're really interested in the subject of the bible and it's many alterations, feel free to just google it you'll find many articles on it, just make sure to check your sources religion can be a very tricky, and purposefully misleading thing when on the internet.) God did say that line about man, but before he told us that he also told us "Thou shalt not judge". Judging people based on literally anything is a sin that was once unforgivable in his eyes, so you can see why I don't bother with christians like that.

It's not against your religion to serve two people in a cake shop. Being gay is against your religion, but serving people who ARE gay is totally something you can do, and something god WANTS you to do. Jesus especially wants you to do it because he loves everyone, and would never tell you to treat someone so coldly and in such an abrupt manner, because it isn't your place at all. Judging people is not something humans should worry about, and if they do they are crossing a line in the eyes of god and acting like they have some kind of authority over others, which they don't. I get the baker didn't want to make a cake because of some autonomous reason about gay people and the bible, but its very ridiculous in my eyes and they were being a huge asshole. (When I say judging people, I am of course excluding extreme things like murder and stuff duh. just petty shit like "That girls hair looks weird so i won't sit with her" or "He's trans, and I don't like that, so i'm going to mock him for it."

Saying you won't serve gay people in your good christian bakery because it goes against the bible is like if my muslim friend told me I couldn't come to her house because I eat pork and thats against her religion. The baker was just using the bible as a means to not be around people that made them feel uncomfortable with reality, and the reality is that times are a changing and ain't nothing you can do about it. Jesus would not want you to wallow away, crying about how the gays are taking over, he'd want you to live beside them and be their friend because OTHER PEOPLE'S SEX LIVES/SEXUALITY IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, AND ONLY GOD IS ALLOWED TO JUDGE PEOPLE ON THOSE GROUNDS. You as a human don't get to make the rules of who gets civil rights and who doesn't, which is a huge reason society has sucked for as long as society has existed. No one is ever happy except for straight white dudes with lots of money, and thats because they've gotten it into their head since the very beginning that they can just make whatever rules they want, and they'll just change all of Jesus' words and say they "Speak for him". If jesus were alive today, no one would like him because he wouldn't look like a white, middle aged man with baby blue eyes like all of the pictures paint him as and I find that to be such a disheartening fact.
 

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
(note: I am a gay woman myself, I was just raised christian. I am not defending the baker or the couple, but I kinda think the baker was being an asshole, just a little.)

Honestly, I feel like we kind of head into murky territory when we start saying that business owners reserve the right to refuse anyone, because it sounds like a lawsuit just waiting to happen (Which is what happened here with the cake thing, so go figure.) I mean yeah you can say "I don't serve nazis, so leave" because thats a shitty political idea revolving around murdering a bunch of people who are different than you. But if you say "I don't serve gay people because it's against my religion" than it's just blatant blasphemy in the face of God and the patrons in the shop. I was raised in a christian household, and whenever any wack job says "I don't cater to gay people because thats against the bible" they're basically liars. See, God does in fact say that stupid line about man not laying with another man, and a million other people have already corrected the translation error and called this line out as being directly tampered with and shit (If you're really interested in the subject of the bible and it's many alterations, feel free to just google it you'll find many articles on it, just make sure to check your sources religion can be a very tricky, and purposefully misleading thing when on the internet.) God did say that line about man, but before he told us that he also told us "Thou shalt not judge". Judging people based on literally anything is a sin that was once unforgivable in his eyes, so you can see why I don't bother with christians like that.

It's not against your religion to serve two people in a cake shop. Being gay is against your religion, but serving people who ARE gay is totally something you can do, and something god WANTS you to do. Jesus especially wants you to do it because he loves everyone, and would never tell you to treat someone so coldly and in such an abrupt manner, because it isn't your place at all. Judging people is not something humans should worry about, and if they do they are crossing a line in the eyes of god and acting like they have some kind of authority over others, which they don't. I get the baker didn't want to make a cake because of some autonomous reason about gay people and the bible, but its very ridiculous in my eyes and they were being a huge asshole. (When I say judging people, I am of course excluding extreme things like murder and stuff duh. just petty shit like "That girls hair looks weird so i won't sit with her" or "He's trans, and I don't like that, so i'm going to mock him for it."

Saying you won't serve gay people in your good christian bakery because it goes against the bible is like if my muslim friend told me I couldn't come to her house because I eat pork and thats against her religion. The baker was just using the bible as a means to not be around people that made them feel uncomfortable with reality, and the reality is that times are a changing and ain't nothing you can do about it. Jesus would not want you to wallow away, crying about how the gays are taking over, he'd want you to live beside them and be their friend because OTHER PEOPLE'S SEX LIVES/SEXUALITY IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, AND ONLY GOD IS ALLOWED TO JUDGE PEOPLE ON THOSE GROUNDS. You as a human don't get to make the rules of who gets civil rights and who doesn't, which is a huge reason society has sucked for as long as society has existed. No one is ever happy except for straight white dudes with lots of money, and thats because they've gotten it into their head since the very beginning that they can just make whatever rules they want, and they'll just change all of Jesus' words and say they "Speak for him". If jesus were alive today, no one would like him because he wouldn't look like a white, middle aged man with baby blue eyes like all of the pictures paint him as and I find that to be such a disheartening fact.
I agree. Preach. :D
 

Apoc-Volkov

Mechanical Mind
(note: I am a gay woman myself, I was just raised christian. I am not defending the baker or the couple, but I kinda think the baker was being an asshole, just a little.)

Honestly, I feel like we kind of head into murky territory when we start saying that business owners reserve the right to refuse anyone, because it sounds like a lawsuit just waiting to happen (Which is what happened here with the cake thing, so go figure.) I mean yeah you can say "I don't serve nazis, so leave" because thats a shitty political idea revolving around murdering a bunch of people who are different than you. But if you say "I don't serve gay people because it's against my religion" than it's just blatant blasphemy in the face of God and the patrons in the shop. I was raised in a christian household, and whenever any wack job says "I don't cater to gay people because thats against the bible" they're basically liars. See, God does in fact say that stupid line about man not laying with another man, and a million other people have already corrected the translation error and called this line out as being directly tampered with and shit (If you're really interested in the subject of the bible and it's many alterations, feel free to just google it you'll find many articles on it, just make sure to check your sources religion can be a very tricky, and purposefully misleading thing when on the internet.) God did say that line about man, but before he told us that he also told us "Thou shalt not judge". Judging people based on literally anything is a sin that was once unforgivable in his eyes, so you can see why I don't bother with christians like that.

It's not against your religion to serve two people in a cake shop. Being gay is against your religion, but serving people who ARE gay is totally something you can do, and something god WANTS you to do. Jesus especially wants you to do it because he loves everyone, and would never tell you to treat someone so coldly and in such an abrupt manner, because it isn't your place at all. Judging people is not something humans should worry about, and if they do they are crossing a line in the eyes of god and acting like they have some kind of authority over others, which they don't. I get the baker didn't want to make a cake because of some autonomous reason about gay people and the bible, but its very ridiculous in my eyes and they were being a huge asshole. (When I say judging people, I am of course excluding extreme things like murder and stuff duh. just petty shit like "That girls hair looks weird so i won't sit with her" or "He's trans, and I don't like that, so i'm going to mock him for it."

Saying you won't serve gay people in your good christian bakery because it goes against the bible is like if my muslim friend told me I couldn't come to her house because I eat pork and thats against her religion. The baker was just using the bible as a means to not be around people that made them feel uncomfortable with reality, and the reality is that times are a changing and ain't nothing you can do about it. Jesus would not want you to wallow away, crying about how the gays are taking over, he'd want you to live beside them and be their friend because OTHER PEOPLE'S SEX LIVES/SEXUALITY IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, AND ONLY GOD IS ALLOWED TO JUDGE PEOPLE ON THOSE GROUNDS. You as a human don't get to make the rules of who gets civil rights and who doesn't, which is a huge reason society has sucked for as long as society has existed. No one is ever happy except for straight white dudes with lots of money, and thats because they've gotten it into their head since the very beginning that they can just make whatever rules they want, and they'll just change all of Jesus' words and say they "Speak for him". If jesus were alive today, no one would like him because he wouldn't look like a white, middle aged man with baby blue eyes like all of the pictures paint him as and I find that to be such a disheartening fact.
One could easily use this rationale to argue that whatever the customer does outside of the business transaction is none of the service provider's business.

On a more pragmatic note, there is bound to be a culture clash in any multicultural society, regardless of how tolerant the people involved are of one another. Trying to force the issue under those circumstances, especially by means of preachy lecturing, will not only backfire but also can potentially make matters worse for everyone involved. Be mindful that the only actions we can reliably control are our own; the onus is on all of us to not act like the complete and utter idiots we tend to become when tempers rise.

If some idiot wants to use a rather liberal interpretation of some holy text to justify whatever breed of lunacy they fancy as their malfunction, yeah, it's within the public right to have them quarantined and possibly resocialized as a matter of damage control. If it's a genuine cultural artifact that someone adheres to out of tradition however, like for instance the fact that Muslim males are not allowed to touch a female they are not closely related to (the actual commandment, as it were, is framed a lot more conservatively in the Quran), and said tradition doesn't conflict with any existing laws, demanding that the service provider do something that goes against their core beliefs is unwarranted harassment.
 

Sunburst_Odell

Some weird teen on the web that likes cartoons
I would put it out there that I would just like to hear from @Sunburst_Odell and @Yakamaru about their thoughts on whether we should be denying gay people business services and if it is appropriate to address this.

Would have replied sooner but I thought this thread was locked until I saw it on the new posts tab.

But I'm not sure how you got the idea that I want to deny gay people services just because I mentioned politics always end up in a flame war? I never said anything that implies that at all.

I don't like talking about my political stance because I'm not very politically smart, mostly because I don't care enough about politics to stay informed, and in the past it always backfired on me. But, just so you know, I'm not homophobic. Far from it. So please do not drag me into this.

Anyway, after this I'm not replying to anything because I don't really want to get into this, and arguments in general are very stressful for me.
 

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
Would have replied sooner but I thought this thread was locked until I saw it on the new posts tab.

But I'm not sure how you got the idea that I want to deny gay people services just because I mentioned politics always end up in a flame war? I never said anything that implies that at all.

I don't like talking about my political stance because I'm not very politically smart, mostly because I don't care enough about politics to stay informed, and in the past it always backfired on me. But, just so you know, I'm not homophobic. Far from it. So please do not drag me into this.

Anyway, after this I'm not replying to anything because I don't really want to get into this, and arguments in general are very stressful for me.
I apologize if I made you feel that way because that totally wasn't my intention. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on whether I should've commented. I don't really have any beef with you. Sorry I if caused you any undue stress.
 
Last edited:

Sunburst_Odell

Some weird teen on the web that likes cartoons
I apologize if I made you feel that way because that totally wasn't my intention. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on whether I should've commented. I don't really have any beef with you. Sorry if caused you any undue stress.
It's alright, and I'm sorry if I sounded snappy. Looking back I sounded a little harsh and I feel bad about it.
 

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
It's alright, and I'm sorry if I sounded snappy. Looking back I sounded a little harsh and I feel bad about it.
Nothing to feel bad about and I didn't take it as snappy. Have a good night.
 
P

Purple Jackal

Guest
(note: I am a gay woman myself, I was just raised christian. I am not defending the baker or the couple, but I kinda think the baker was being an asshole, just a little.)

Honestly, I feel like we kind of head into murky territory when we start saying that business owners reserve the right to refuse anyone, because it sounds like a lawsuit just waiting to happen (Which is what happened here with the cake thing, so go figure.) I mean yeah you can say "I don't serve nazis, so leave" because thats a shitty political idea revolving around murdering a bunch of people who are different than you. But if you say "I don't serve gay people because it's against my religion" than it's just blatant blasphemy in the face of God and the patrons in the shop. I was raised in a christian household, and whenever any wack job says "I don't cater to gay people because thats against the bible" they're basically liars. See, God does in fact say that stupid line about man not laying with another man, and a million other people have already corrected the translation error and called this line out as being directly tampered with and shit (If you're really interested in the subject of the bible and it's many alterations, feel free to just google it you'll find many articles on it, just make sure to check your sources religion can be a very tricky, and purposefully misleading thing when on the internet.) God did say that line about man, but before he told us that he also told us "Thou shalt not judge". Judging people based on literally anything is a sin that was once unforgivable in his eyes, so you can see why I don't bother with christians like that.

It's not against your religion to serve two people in a cake shop. Being gay is against your religion, but serving people who ARE gay is totally something you can do, and something god WANTS you to do. Jesus especially wants you to do it because he loves everyone, and would never tell you to treat someone so coldly and in such an abrupt manner, because it isn't your place at all. Judging people is not something humans should worry about, and if they do they are crossing a line in the eyes of god and acting like they have some kind of authority over others, which they don't. I get the baker didn't want to make a cake because of some autonomous reason about gay people and the bible, but its very ridiculous in my eyes and they were being a huge asshole. (When I say judging people, I am of course excluding extreme things like murder and stuff duh. just petty shit like "That girls hair looks weird so i won't sit with her" or "He's trans, and I don't like that, so i'm going to mock him for it."

Saying you won't serve gay people in your good christian bakery because it goes against the bible is like if my muslim friend told me I couldn't come to her house because I eat pork and thats against her religion. The baker was just using the bible as a means to not be around people that made them feel uncomfortable with reality, and the reality is that times are a changing and ain't nothing you can do about it. Jesus would not want you to wallow away, crying about how the gays are taking over, he'd want you to live beside them and be their friend because OTHER PEOPLE'S SEX LIVES/SEXUALITY IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, AND ONLY GOD IS ALLOWED TO JUDGE PEOPLE ON THOSE GROUNDS. You as a human don't get to make the rules of who gets civil rights and who doesn't, which is a huge reason society has sucked for as long as society has existed. No one is ever happy except for straight white dudes with lots of money, and thats because they've gotten it into their head since the very beginning that they can just make whatever rules they want, and they'll just change all of Jesus' words and say they "Speak for him". If jesus were alive today, no one would like him because he wouldn't look like a white, middle aged man with baby blue eyes like all of the pictures paint him as and I find that to be such a disheartening fact.

The Discord i had this debate kept going around saying "It's his place go find a another baker". Apparently its okay to them, to refuse serving LGBT customers and that were being rude to christians.
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry if someone else said what I said, I only looked at about the first three pages of this thead. Of course, there's the fact that we don't have all the info or know OP's friend personally or anything, but assuming OP is being truthful, speaking from my personal experiences, I doubt OP's friend is a nazi or alt righter and is covering himself for following this accounts or anything.
There's a few issues with this:
1) The artist has no way of knowing which is the case
2) The previously raised point about the artist possibly feeling unsafe doing work for them because it leaves breadcrumbs between people who have extreme positions and themselves, via any reposting the commissioner does, doesn't care about whether the follows are serious. If it risks leading extremists back to the artist, it risks leading extremists back to the artist.
3) Exposure to extremist talking points over time often leads to people being influenced by those opinions. Basically, just because someone started listening to alt-righters to mock them, doesn't mean they won't internalize some of what's said. If it were just Donald Trump's account, that would be one thing, especially since he's taken to announcing policy via Twitter, but it's not only Trump.
4) It could be a "line in the sand" thing for the artist. They want no association, even indirectly.

Now, do I agree with calling people nazis without very strong evidence that they actually engage in spreading white supremacist ideology? Not at all. I don't agree with the extent some people let perceived association poison their opinion of others. But given that a lot of people who do subscribe to toxic ideologies will say the exact same things to try to escape social repercussions for those positions, I wouldn't think it entirely fair to expect the artist to take their word for it that they're not alt-right, honest!
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
*BINGO*

This is one of the ways society governs itself, instead of some governmental bureaucracy or robe-garmented Elder sitting behind a desk.
Society tends to change more slowly, which can be a good or bad thing, depending. I see far more harm jumping to conclusions (how many wars/conflicts have we seen over the centuries, that were based off completely inaccurate presumption(s)? And it keeps right-on truckin' along...)

In this case, if a business that banned people with the 'wrong' skin colour thrived (as you put it) that would be an incredibly bad thing.

That behaviour is morally inexcusable, and preventing bad behaviours like that is one of the functions of the state.
 

Inpw

Roller Coaster Imagineer.
You're allowed to not do business with whoever you want. And the OP is allowed to mention it and we're allowed to criticise it.

Personally the artist is an idiot who like many other people turned politics into their religion because they have nothing better to do. If bullshit starts to define who you are you are a bullshit person.
 

Furryfox777

Gentle as snow
Denying service based on religion, skin colour, sex, and any other inherent trait or affiliation, is stupid. And for most of aforementioned, illegal and or unethical.

Political affiliation is not (to my knowledge) a protected identity as such, but in my opinion that does not make it any more respectable to discriminate based on it. That said, I'm also a firm adherent to not shoving your own beliefs down someone else's throat and forcing them to accomodate you. Which makes it an interesting dilemma. My opinion, taking the things here at face value, is that the artist is stupid - but well within his rights to not offer service for any reason. You can criticize that decision, and I think you should. But he's perfectly allowed to offer his services for free, charge for his services, or deny them, as he or she pleases.
I think it's wrong to do so for a number of reasons. But having read some of the other input here, I can understand why one might choose to do so.

To answer the initial question:
Justified? Yes.
Unprofessional? No.
Stupid? In my opinion, yes.

We're all people, we all have different opinions, feelings, and ideas. Hating each other and building walls between us is not - contrary to some recent ideas - a good solution. In some cases, it may be a necessary action as the last resort. But it's never a good solution.
 

Shadow of Bucephalus

Banned
Banned
In this case, if a business that banned people with the 'wrong' skin colour thrived (as you put it) that would be an incredibly bad thing.

That behaviour is morally inexcusable, and preventing bad behaviours like that is one of the functions of the state.

"preventing bad behaviours like that is one of the functions of the state."

Here we agree to disagree.

I do not, will not, and cannot imagine ever thinking my morality/behavior is the responsibility of my (or anyone else's). 'Government'.
IF that were true?
Name one thing (here in America at least. I won't pretend to speak on behalf of another Nation.), that our 'Government' has done right, in, oh, say the last THIRTY (plus) YEARS?

One. Thing.

I'm not about to hand-over the reins like that.

That is the function of society, and by default (since we're discussing capitalism/money), commerce and good or bad business sense and decisions.

This conversation has become circular (like that's anything new).

I stand by my original post and sentiment-

Any business has the Right to refuse service to anyone.

Period.

There are some things the government should regulate, as has already been mentioned- necessary materials/services. Medical, Food, etc., should in no way be denied because of prejudice.

A wedding cake is not going to kill you if you don't eat it. (quite the contrary, really)
 

Troj

Your Friendly Neighborhood Dino Therapist
One of the functions of the state is to protect people from each other and from predatory institutions (including the government itself), so that everyone can enjoy the same basic rights and a basic level of comfort and safety.

The state can choose to "nudge" people away from undesirable behaviors and towards desirable ones with propaganda/education campaigns, social incentives, financial incentivizes, and peer pressure, but making "good" or "nice" behavior compulsory is one of the red flags of totalitarianism.

Anti-discrimination laws need to be grounded in the former above intention, and not the latter one--but, if the latter aim is achieved in the process, that's certainly a cherry on top.

Anyway, as long as artists are transparent, clear, and open about their policies, I see no reason why they can't politely turn down a commission request because they don't want to be associated with certain people, ideas, or content, or don't want their art to be misused, abused, or misappropriated. People are free to criticize that artist and take their business elsewhere, but the artist still gets to draw that boundary.

When the commissioner is a fundamentally-decent person who's just been misjudged by an artist, that's genuinely unfortunate. When the commissioner has earned a bad reputation through sketchy (ha ha) deeds, then they only have themselves to blame.
 
Last edited:

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
"preventing bad behaviours like that is one of the functions of the state."

Here we agree to disagree.

I do not, will not, and cannot imagine ever thinking my morality/behavior is the responsibility of my (or anyone else's). 'Government'.
IF that were true?
Name one thing (here in America at least. I won't pretend to speak on behalf of another Nation.), that our 'Government' has done right, in, oh, say the last THIRTY (plus) YEARS?

One. Thing.

I'm not about to hand-over the reins like that.

That is the function of society, and by default (since we're discussing capitalism/money), commerce and good or bad business sense and decisions.

This conversation has become circular (like that's anything new).

I stand by my original post and sentiment-

Any business has the Right to refuse service to anyone.

Period.

There are some things the government should regulate, as has already been mentioned- necessary materials/services. Medical, Food, etc., should in no way be denied because of prejudice.

A wedding cake is not going to kill you if you don't eat it. (quite the contrary, really)

Of course regulating bad behaviour that harms society is in the purview of the Government. Why else do you think there are laws against littering?

Sure you could make the argument that in your moral system there's nothing wrong with dropping your trash wherever you want; how unfair that the tyrannical government forces its pansy-ass morality upon you!
 
Z

ZeroVoidTime

Guest
I know more about American politics than most Americans, if you count babies and children and old people with dementia.

I am very smart.
Insane joke reply: Lies! You do not know American politics while I drink blue sky back and upwardsssss..........

Serious reply: *sigh* I sincerely doubt you understand the difference between political and general public America as most Americans from the general public are apathetic towards world affairs and tend to focus on local problems. I can imagine the same goes for any other human society as humans tend to be more focus on their own issues rather focus on a problem outside of their control. (This has become a massive issue due to the rise of the Internet and mass media being shoved in said apathetic citizens faces causing more negative backlash to become more frequent. Though America needs to stop shoving its problems on to the world stage and making drama out of it and acting self entitled. Though the same can be said about any other country and Americans just need to set a better example.)
 

Slytherin Umbreon

Black Lives Matter
I sincerely doubt you understand the difference between political and general public America as most Americans from the general public are apathetic towards world affairs and tend to focus on local problems.
Just want to add to this, it's been a running joke for years, that many American's couldn't pass the citizenship test we make immigrants go through.
I don't know how valid that is, but it's a thing.
I'm pretty sure our President can't.
 
Just want to add to this, it's been a running joke for years, that many American's couldn't pass the citizenship test we make immigrants go through.
I don't know how valid that is, but it's a thing.
I'm pretty sure our President can't.
That was actually a study that was done.

And our current president doesn't even know what powers he does and doesn't have, bust on the frequency of attempted constitutional violations.

That or he's seeing what he can get away with. Either circumstance being really bad...
 

Slytherin Umbreon

Black Lives Matter
And our current president doesn't even know what powers he does and doesn't have, bust on the frequency of attempted constitutional violations.
Question 1: Who is the President of the United States?
Trump: -ugly smirk-

Question 2: Literally anything
Trump: -smirk wiped off- I refuse to take this, this test was written by the Left Fake News Alien Climate Change Trade Deal Investigation!
 
Z

ZeroVoidTime

Guest
Personally I blame our poorly run public schools in the United States as they fail to teach how our government works and practically little to no life skills upon graduation. (Yes I know parents are suppose to teach their children how to function in society and learn life skills through them but parents will not know everything and will not always be there to help.)
 
I

Infrarednexus

Guest
Personally I blame our poorly run public schools in the United States as they fail to teach how our government works and practically little to no life skills upon graduation. (Yes I know parents are suppose to teach their children how to function in society and learn life skills through them but parents will not know everything and will not always be there to help.)
"Education is the key that unlocks the golden door of freedom"- George Washington Carver
 
Top