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i'm scared to die

Saurex

Emerian Lore Master
On the subject of seeing brains, I've been fortunate enough to have a brain scan, but I received a written explanation of what my brain looks like and I didn't get to see the original image
That sucks. I've always thought it'd be cool to see your own brain...
 

Saurex

Emerian Lore Master
My issue with your reasoning is that our consciousness can't be result of chemical reactions and yet you back that up with a view on conservation of energy that is purely emotional.
There is no evidence that even hints at our consciousness being any more special than that of other animals.
Also, to say that Wikipedia is my source for everything when I took one definition from there? THAT is what made me mad.
You made it a point to show that you used Wikipedia instead of simply giving a definition of what you were talking about. Normally those who insist on referencing the source of their information return to the same source constantly and often will not resort to other sources. Sorry it made you mad, but it seemed kinda silly to drop the "according Wikipedia" shoe when all you had to do was say what you were thinking. Hell... I (and probably most people) know what argumentum ad ignorantiam means. The fact that you felt the need to cite a site such as Wikipedia as though those of us reading this thread were too dumb to know what you were talking about made me mad.

Final thought: you do realize that your argument against the unique nature of human conscience and the existence of an afterlife, soul, etc. is also based in exactly what you accuse me of, right? You believe that because it has yet to be measured, it therefore cannot exist, in much the same way as many believed the earth was flat due to the fact that they had no way of knowing otherwise. Since then the earth has been proven to be round (except to a few crazy people). The same can neither be said for or against anything being discussed here. That is the exact, textbook definition of argumentum ad ignorantiam. So, by your own reasoning, neither of us is right because neither can prove the other wrong. So, entire exercise is a moot point.
 
Argumentum ad ignorantiam: God, souls, etc. hasn't been proven to exist, therefore they do not exist.

Nice try though
The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary. Usually best described by, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

Although we have proven that the moon is not made of spare ribs, we have not proven that its core cannot be filled with them; therefore, the moon’s core is filled with spare ribs.
Description: Making a claim that needs justification, then demanding that the opponent justifies the opposite of the claim. The burden of proof is a legal and philosophical concept with differences in each domain. In everyday debate, the burden of proof typically lies with the person making the claim, but it can also lie with the person denying a well-established fact or theory. Like other non-black and white issues, there are instances where this is clearly fallacious, and those which are not as clear.

Logical Form:

Person 1 is claiming Y, which requires justification.

Person 1 demands that person 2 justify the opposite of Y.

Person 2 refuses or is unable to comply.

Therefore, Y is true.

Example #1:

Jack: I have tiny, invisible unicorns living in my anus.

Nick: How do you figure?

Jack: Can you prove that I don't?

Nick: No.

Jack: Then I do.
And none of this should be considered to disprove the existence of the soul or afterlife, but rather that such explanations of death shouldn't and needn't come at the expense of science, logic, and reason.
I'm trying to be nice. Especially after some of the shit I dealt with in another thread. Chill.
www.logicallyfallacious.com: Shifting of the Burden of Proof
www.logicallyfallacious.com: Argument from Ignorance
 

Saurex

Emerian Lore Master
I'm trying to be nice. Especially after some of the shit I dealt with in another thread. Chill.
www.logicallyfallacious.com: Shifting of the Burden of Proof
www.logicallyfallacious.com: Argument from Ignorance
So... those two links: the second one just reinforces my point. That first one means nothing. I'm not asking you for proof. I'm simply pointing out that by the definition of the rationale you keep slinging around both of us are wrong. I can't prove anything, neither can you.

Sorry you've been dealing with crumby threads. That's never fun. Hope things get better for ya.
 

CaptainCool

Lady of the lake
Argumentum ad ignorantiam: God, souls, etc. hasn't been proven to exist, therefore they do not exist.

Nice try though
That's not an argumentum ad ignorantiam. If there is no evidence for the existence of souls it is only logical to assume that they don't exist.
Souls are like Russell's teapot. You simply cannot expect us to believe in them without proving that they do exist.
 
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CaptainCool

Lady of the lake
Final thought: you do realize that your argument against the unique nature of human conscience and the existence of an afterlife, soul, etc. is also based in exactly what you accuse me of, right? You believe that because it has yet to be measured, it therefore cannot exist, in much the same way as many believed the earth was flat due to the fact that they had no way of knowing otherwise. Since then the earth has been proven to be round (except to a few crazy people). The same can neither be said for or against anything being discussed here. That is the exact, textbook definition of argumentum ad ignorantiam. So, by your own reasoning, neither of us is right because neither can prove the other wrong. So, entire exercise is a moot point.
I don't agree. There was evidence for the earth being a round, many pointed it out but it was assumed to be false because of personal beliefs and an emotional response.
For souls out the afterlife there is no reasonable evidence at all. Just personal experiences that can't be reproduced or explained logically, like near death experiences simply being hallucinations caused by a dying brain.
You are trying to shift the burden of proof.
 
That's not an argumentum ad ignorantiam. If there is no evidence for the existence of souls it is only logical to assume that they don't exist.
And none of this should be considered to disprove the existence of the soul or afterlife, but rather that such explanations of death shouldn't and needn't come at the expense of science, logic, and reason.
That isn't a logical conclusion either, because you cannot prove souls do not exist, nor be certain beyond a reasonable doubt of that fact. We can accurately state they probably do not based on the preponderance of evidence and Occam's Razor. To reject the possibility of their existence outright is no more rational than to play god of the gaps.

I don't agree. There was evidence for the earth being a round, many pointed it out but it was assumed to be false because of personal beliefs and an emotional response.
For souls out the afterlife there is no reasonable evidence at all. Just personal experiences that can't be reproduced or explained logically, like near death experiences simply being hallucinations caused by a dying brain.
You are trying to shift the burden of proof.

Historically speaking, there have been multiple instances of wrong assumptions based on a lack of information. There was in fact a period of time well and prior to adequate understanding of geometry that people believed the world to be flat.

I might have criticisms of @Saurex in regards to the improper implementation of logic and failure to understand principles of logic, but I don't assume I myself have all the answers when there is so much more to learn. I just don't conjure them up from gaps in our understanding and pretend to know, but instead would rather admit I know nothing to the effect and correct incorrect assumptions based in a lack of knowledge of medical science.

This is why I am an atheist, because I believe it is unlikely their is a god, and know I cannot truly know one to be real. Thus it is more practical to live under the assumption that one does not exist, but this does not reasonably disprove the existence of some form of deity, afterlife, soul, etc. This merely rejects them as improbable rather than wholly impossible, and seeks rational explanations for phenomena before assuming them to be divine or spiritual in nature. The "gotcha" brand of atheist is ironic in its failure to understand the limitations of scientific methodology in exploring the metaphysical by its untestable nature, and that the burden of proof naturally exists for absolute counter arguments against the metaphysical being at all possible.

While I do feel @Saurex is trying to shift the burden of proof, in this case there is a burden of proof required to make the absolute statement that souls do not exist. One that cannot stand on assumption alone. Such an absolute claim must be absolutely proven, and no human is capable of proving such a claim for either camp of this argument. Rather, I would aim to debunk poor arguments for or against the metaphysical that demonstrate unhealthy failings of reason.

The absence of counter evidence of the soul is no proof of the souls existence, but the absence of evidence to the soul existing cannot prove it does not exist. While probability can be determined, absolute certainty cannot.
 

CaptainCool

Lady of the lake
I don't regret them entirely, I just dids that at the moment it makes more sense to assume that they don't exist.
It's not just that we have no evidence for them, we can also explain everything without needing shoul as an answer.
No one has seen dark matter. We are pretty certain that it fits exist though because the maths checks out. Souls don't even have thet going for them. It only makes sense to assume souls exist if you tweak everything else to need souls to work.
 

Trndsttr

Yeet
Death only frightens me because if I die young I’ll be forgotten forever. I want to do something with my life. Something good. Something to make me be remembered, for as long as I can be. Like Julius Caesar is still remembered today, and he’s ancient. It’s not just about being demented or forgotten that makes me want to do something good, though. I don’t want an ordinary life. I’ve never liked sticking to a strict system, or a set of rules. I’ve never let rules define me, because sometimes rules get in the way of things. People so long ago were killed for being in any way LGBTQ+ and what did people do to fix that? Broke the rules. And look at us now. It may not be good, but things have changed. I’m going into a long thing here, so I’m just going to stop now. Basically, one of my many phobias is getting an incurable (Or any type of deadly) disease. Going day to day with really bad anxiety about this stuff isn’t helping, but sometimes it feels nice to say something. I get what you mean. I believe in afterlife because it was forced onto me as a child and now it’s just my belief, but that doesn’t make things better. Stuck in the clouds, for... eternity? Depressing. I really hope reincarnation is real. But it wasn’t part of my belief, so I don’t have high hopes.
 

Thehoneybutter

Trusted butter sampler.
Well in retrospect every human being has been dead for billions of years up until the day they've been conceived, if that is of some comfort,
 

AppleButt

Well-Known Member
Death doesn't really scare me, what comes after does scare me a bit though.

I don't really believe in god, so the thought there being nothing after death scares me, and I imagine it scares a lot of other nonbelievers more than they're willing to admit. While I have nothing against the belief in God, no amount of people telling me to believe in him simply because they are scared of death too is going to make him real or make me believe in him.

I used to think I was terrified of death because I'd wake up from naps with crushing feeling that I was going to die. It was a really shitty feeling, but then I thought that it's not death I'm scared of, it was the thought of not ever seeing my family, and friends again.

No material thing in life really makes me happy, but my friends and family do, so the best I can do now is enjoy the time I have with them.
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
You made it a point to show that you used Wikipedia instead of simply giving a definition of what you were talking about. Normally those who insist on referencing the source of their information return to the same source constantly and often will not resort to other sources. Sorry it made you mad, but it seemed kinda silly to drop the "according Wikipedia" shoe when all you had to do was say what you were thinking. Hell... I (and probably most people) know what argumentum ad ignorantiam means. The fact that you felt the need to cite a site such as Wikipedia as though those of us reading this thread were too dumb to know what you were talking about made me mad.

Final thought: you do realize that your argument against the unique nature of human conscience and the existence of an afterlife, soul, etc. is also based in exactly what you accuse me of, right? You believe that because it has yet to be measured, it therefore cannot exist, in much the same way as many believed the earth was flat due to the fact that they had no way of knowing otherwise. Since then the earth has been proven to be round (except to a few crazy people). The same can neither be said for or against anything being discussed here. That is the exact, textbook definition of argumentum ad ignorantiam. So, by your own reasoning, neither of us is right because neither can prove the other wrong. So, entire exercise is a moot point.

So I find it's very helpful to know where people get their information from, so that I can go and look at it myself if it takes my interest.

I'm sure you know that there are many clever ways of proving the earth is round by using a cunning choice of measurements (such as the position of shadows in different parts of the world at mid-day on the solstice, or the displacement of a projectile that is launched from the earth's surface), without having to directly observe its shape from space.
Most people would be happy to accept (extremely happy to accept in most cases) that a human soul exists, if similarly cunning measurements could be made to show it.

Until such a time, it's not really possible to know- and in the case that the soul doesn't exist it will never be possible to know, because there will be no possible observation to make that can confirm the soul's existence.
This is why, as you point out, a lot of scientists view the idea of trying to investigate spirituality as moot- pointless.
 

StolenMadWolf

resident Lab Wolf
Death only frightens me because if I die young I’ll be forgotten forever. I want to do something with my life. Something good. Something to make me be remembered, for as long as I can be. Like Julius Caesar is still remembered today, and he’s ancient. It’s not just about being demented or forgotten that makes me want to do something good, though. I don’t want an ordinary life. I’ve never liked sticking to a strict system, or a set of rules. I’ve never let rules define me, because sometimes rules get in the way of things. People so long ago were killed for being in any way LGBTQ+ and what did people do to fix that? Broke the rules. And look at us now. It may not be good, but things have changed. I’m going into a long thing here, so I’m just going to stop now. Basically, one of my many phobias is getting an incurable (Or any type of deadly) disease. Going day to day with really bad anxiety about this stuff isn’t helping, but sometimes it feels nice to say something. I get what you mean. I believe in afterlife because it was forced onto me as a child and now it’s just my belief, but that doesn’t make things better. Stuck in the clouds, for... eternity? Depressing. I really hope reincarnation is real. But it wasn’t part of my belief, so I don’t have high hopes.

Outside of the afterlife part, I agree with that to the letter.
 

Trndsttr

Yeet
Outside of the afterlife part, I agree with that to the letter.
And truth be told, I’ve been having second thought myself about it. Just having time alone so much more now, I think about it often. Only reason I still believe it is because like I said, it was forced on to me as a child.
 

Trndsttr

Yeet
Nothing frightens me more than the idea of my conciousness...my essence, my being, my thoughts, my experiences...simply ceasing to exist.
Yeah, like your memories being forever lost and everything you had ripped away from you in a fraction of a second. It’s terrifying when you really think about it.
 

Tazmo

Trash connoisseur
This year I had to go under the knife. Just before the anesthesia was administered I asked the surgeon "will I dream"? Response was "Yes, but you will not remember anything." not long after, I was out; Complete darkness of my existence . As in turning off and on a light, I was back.


I was intrigued because I thought consciousness was turned off under anesthesia; the closest you can come to death while still being alive.

Weird experience
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
Reading these posts prompted me to remember that when I was...I think 22, maybe 21, I was sitting down to drink a cup of coffee when I was overwhelmed with an immense sense of imminent death. It was really weird to describe; I felt this odd visceral dread that my body was just telling me 'you're dying' and felt like I was levitating- being pulled up into the sky. (this feeling is sometimes described as an 'aura' and it can happen to people with epilepsy)
I tried to shout for help but it didn't come out very loudly.

Then I woke up screaming and convulsing. After lots of medical poking and prodding, including a brain-scan I discovered...that there's absolutely nothing wrong with my brain; no epilepsy no nothing. I was given the impression that the stream of consciousness that a brain creates is inherently unstable, and any brain might just randomly run into a brick-wall and stop working.

So that was a fun little experience. :]
 
Reading these posts prompted me to remember that when I was...I think 22, maybe 21, I was sitting down to drink a cup of coffee when I was overwhelmed with an immense sense of imminent death. It was really weird to describe; I felt this odd visceral dread that my body was just telling me 'you're dying' and felt like I was levitating- being pulled up into the sky. (this feeling is sometimes described as an 'aura' and it can happen to people with epilepsy)
I tried to shout for help but it didn't come out very loudly.

Then I woke up screaming and convulsing. After lots of medical poking and prodding, including a brain-scan I discovered...that there's absolutely nothing wrong with my brain; no epilepsy no nothing. I was given the impression that the stream of consciousness that a brain creates is inherently unstable, and any brain might just randomly run into a brick-wall and stop working.

So that was a fun little experience. :]
Damn
 
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