Main Site Issue regarding the new policy update.

[Ank57]

I understand and appreciate your concerns, but we have no further plans to limit/prohibit content on the site at this time.

We're not going to be removing NSFW content. Again, we do not have intention of banning additional content at this time.

I want to be remembered for being violently purple.

Banning Nazis is not destroying the site. I understand this decision will not sit well with everyone, but I've already made our reasons for doing so clear in a response previous to this thread.

"I want to be remembered for being violently purple"
God speed, Dragoneer, god speed

 

[Vinfang]

I am indifferent to the ss and nazi symbol, or the sun flag for that matter, werther it was put in or left out in an artwork makes no difference to me.

I agree with the new no minor nsfw policy, but some parts of me felt like a hypocrite, because I have definitely drew/written/read 18+ naruto doujishi when I was a teen, and still do occasionally, if the mood hits me. lol

From an artist's perspective, some artists (Varg.v, Goatmoon, etc) had extreme political views that I don't support of. Doesn't mean their art works are less beautiful in my opinion.

As for the no minor nsfw part, I get why and what they are aiming for, but they forgot to factor in bad artistry... let just say if an artist is unskilled, you can't tell the difference. If most of their characters have bad proportions, or are warped looking.

There are plenty of bad preg art depicted on FA. Nobody can even tell what age, or even species of said character is without reading the artist's description notes.

 

[alphamule]

Wait a minute - isn't that term the old name for... *puts fellow traveler communism into Google* Yeah, 1940's pejorative, apparently.
I guess it can apply to any non-card-carrying member of any political persuasion but that was kind of funny since it's really old school reference to the other infamously-bad form of extreme nationalism. A really old classic.

 

[TyraWadman]

I'm happy with this change.

Once upon a time the Nazi's might have been some sort of boy-scouts group that promoted a healthier lifestyle (heavily paraphrased), but their symbol had been twisted into something terrible. It doesn't matter what their intentions were at the time because even today, there are those that breed, preach and even commit those atrocities. While it might just be 'a picture' to you, it is actually encouragement to others. There are people that feel validated to pursue/continue their hateful ways. It gives the impression that organized hate would be tolerated on this site. Just because you don't see it or experience it first-hand, doesn't mean it doesn't ever happen.

Ask yourself: are you interested in it because of the history? Or are you just trying to live out some fantasy you've created in your head? If you were interested in historical accuracy, you can surely still find those themes on Deviantart with actual humans! Or at art galleries outside the internet! Are you interested in certain characters? Do you appreciate them for their actual character, or do you absolutely require them to have a red band and Nazi symbol on their armband? Are you just obsessed with things that are 'controversial'? If one cannot produce quality art/writing without the depiction of their symbol, then that person might need more time to polish their skills. It's not really hard to imply what something is, especially if you know anything about the subject.

My intention isn't to mock anyone. I can only hope people will genuinely reflect on their behaviors. I do feel strongly about this however, as I had first-hand experience growing up with someone who worshiped this stuff. They still do, apparently, and had a complete meltdown and purged their entire gallery despite having content unrelated to Nazi's. I met them in HS and just assumed they were a history buff because they had a military family like I did. They also loved the game TF2 which seemed to add to their...enthusiasm. Then I learned of their interest in kiddie porn. At that time I just assumed they were cute characters in sexual situations. I didn't care for it. To me it was just an image. THEN I realized that these weren't just cute characters. They were children. And the artist spent hours of their life dedicated to the idea of (usually) r*ping children and not only that, people were spending just as much time getting off to it. I didn't realize it at first because I was still a freaky, underaged teen myself, but then when I became of age, I started noticing more and more people (usually 10+ years older than me) making it a frequent part of their 'lifestyle'. [I could spend way more time pointing out how this was wrong, but this thread technically isn't about that...]

In this case, someone is dedicating hours of their life to... what? Send a message? Honor the soldiers that fought? Are they creating silly characters to mock the threat that 'once was' or are they trying to push their own agenda and make certain extremists think that being a Nazi can be fun/rewarding? Are they writing something that involves experiencing trauma (like r*pe or PTSD from killing, like in war) or are they writing it in explicit detail because they get off to snuff? It might sound like a joke, but just look at how many people buy things impulsively or fall for things like gambling and drug addiction? You might be smart enough to see this as an image and ONLY an image, but that doesn't mean other people are. I don't think there's anything wrong in making sure hate/terrorist groups have one less platform to try and influence/brainwash people. Knowing what these organizations were about, if taking this one thing away from you is enough to make you feel distraught, if Nazi art is really the only thing you've ever known and loved (and associate with), then your health might not be the best. Not saying you have to abandon your social circles, but you might want to branch out and experience life a little more before deciding this is what you need.

You might feel angry and restricted, but sometimes 'it takes a whole village to raise a child'. Perhaps one day in the far future this can change, but in order for that to happen, generations of hate and terrorism will have to be weeded out. People still need time to heal. Since there are people still alive from when these things took place, you will more than likely never get to 'enjoy' this 'freedom' but perhaps you can pride yourself knowing the fact that you worked with others to prevent it from passing on.

Disclaimer: this is meant to be read in a neutral (but firm) and informative tone.

 

[Degorar]

If one cannot produce quality art/writing without the depiction of their symbol, then that person might need more time to polish their skills. It's not really hard to imply what something is, especially if you know anything about the subject.

I expect the same from socialists. If they cannot depict communism without USSR symbols - they have same lack of skill, as you described.

 

[Degorar]

By the way. Doesn't furries like to appropriate whatever historical event they like to depict? Because it means something for them?
Nobody has problem depicting ancient Romans, no one has problem depicting Huns, nobody has problem depicting Aztecs, nobody has problem depicting Ancient Egyptians.
I suggest for prohibition of everything, where furries may never carry any real life flag in entire fandom. Because every country has shady history behind them.
And nobody can never mention their origin, or history.

 

[Miles Marsalis]

I was holding off posting here, but clearly this thread isn't dead so I'll throw my two cents in.

I don't want to be presumptuous, but I feel like the mods could've closed or not had this thread in the first place. The policy update was perfectly reasonable and most sensible people would not be ardently arguing for Nazi art and what amounts kiddie porn. Many sites ban the former and the vast majority ban the latter for reasons that should be apparent. By opening this up for discussion, we now have people with very transparent motives arguing for right to draw swastikas for "historically accuracy" yet seem to know very little history and those who are feeling for slack to draw underage characters engaging in sex acts. One, the mere act of discussing this entertains that is actually acceptable behavior in society and online, which it isn't. Two, it makes the site and its users look like we have no standards whatsoever. I'm assuming this is permanent decision, so why bother to debate it?

Sometimes it just pays to stand your ground, no questions asked.

 

[TyraWadman]

By the way. Doesn't furries like to appropriate whatever historical event they like to depict? Because it means something for them?
Nobody has problem depicting ancient Romans, no one has problem depicting Huns, nobody has problem depicting Aztecs, nobody has problem depicting Ancient Egyptians.
I suggest for prohibition of everything, where furries may never carry any real life flag in entire fandom. Because every country has shady history behind them.
And nobody can never mention their origin, or history.

I think this refers to the last part of my big post. I don't think a lot of these extremist groups exist, and if we were to be so strict, no human would be allowed to exist after the first crime had ever been committed, and the definition of crime evolves with every generation. Are you willing to sacrifice your own life for older generations sins? That would be the sign of an extremist, which is what Nazi's were, and still are today. Aside from that, a lot of those groups you've listed have ceased to be. Like... completely. None of us would ever be born and the platforms you use to suggest your ideas never would have existed.

It would still be super easy to imply someone's origin without blatantly illustrating their symbols. People still have accents, clothing and even furniture that are exclusively from their own culture.

I was holding off posting here, but clearly this thread isn't dead so I'll throw my two cents in.

I don't want to be presumptuous, but I feel like the mods could've closed or not had this thread in the first place. The policy update was perfectly reasonable and most sensible people would not be ardently arguing for Nazi art and what amounts kiddie porn. Many sites ban the former and the vast majority ban the latter for reasons that should be apparent. By opening this up for discussion, we now have people with very transparent motives arguing for right to draw swastikas for "historically accuracy" yet seem to know very little history and those who are feeling for slack to draw underage characters engaging in sex acts. One, the mere act of discussing this entertains that is actually acceptable behavior in society and online, which it isn't. Two, it makes the site and its users look like we have no standards whatsoever. I'm assuming this is permanent decision, so why bother to debate it?

Sometimes it just pays to stand your ground, no questions asked.

I totally agree with this. Unfortunately not everyone in this world can have the guidance in life to actually understand this. What, with the incest families, the inbreeding, brainwashing and coddle cultures that congregate in their safespaces that are unregulated (like discord), it becomes impossible to make sure everyone was given the right amount of attention and support they needed when they were younger. :/
I can't force anyone to change their minds about their extremist ideologies. I can only present them the information they might not have considered, and hope they change for the best. It's way more common than I'd like it to be. It's frustrating that I usually end up talking to a brick wall, but if there's that 1% chance I have to make them reconsider, I'mma take it.

 

[Degorar]

 

[Miles Marsalis]

One, Fur Affinity isn't a video game where context is provided in the storyline usually explaining why Nazism is undesirable. Also, video games are hardly the most historically accurate medium, so this is at best a weak argument.

Two, most art sites have rules them discretion to terminate art and accounts that promote Nazism or its Alt-Right derivatives, which meets most people's standards.

I totally agree with this. Unfortunately not everyone in this world can have the guidance in life to actually understand this. What, with the incest families, the inbreeding, brainwashing and coddle cultures that congregate in their safespaces that are unregulated (like discord), it becomes impossible to make sure everyone was given the right amount of attention and support they needed when they were younger. :/
I can't force anyone to change their minds about their extremist ideologies. I can only present them the information they might not have considered, and hope they change for the best. It's way more common than I'd like it to be. It's frustrating that I usually end up talking to a brick wall, but if there's that 1% chance I have to make them reconsider, I'mma take it.

I'm guessing I'm more conservative than you, but I feel regardless of the possibility of bigots or pedophiles changing their minds, there needs to be a consistent set of standards against this content and sometimes you just hold to those standards rather than chasing people who probably won't change their minds even when presented with rational evidence.

I also want to say ... I don't think people who are users on an art site should have argue with people who are mentally not well about what clearly established societal standards are. I don't want to be a disrespectful prick like some on here have been, but I'd really like the mods to just enforce this standard they came to so you, me, and other users don't have explain why Nazism and pedophilia are bad things. I know people who have left the site because the endless debates around this stuff, artists who refuse to business on here because it will look bad to animation or comics industry, and writers who don't want to put their name on here because of the controversy.

I feel the site should consider those people as opposed to people asking to drawn Nazi art either be overtly or covertly signalling to fellow travellers or those looking to view art that is beyond societal standards, especially when both group are the primary trolls we see on here who bring nothing constructive to the community.

 

[Degorar]

One, Fur Affinity isn't a video game where context is provided in the storyline usually explaining why Nazism is undesirable. Also, video games are hardly the most historically accurate medium, so this is at best a weak argument.

I see that History_Furs will be dropping Axis-Powers depiction, with limitations they are put in. Especially when German soldiers and SS will be put under same symbol, implying they're the same.
I wonder will USSR furs gets same treatment. I doubt that.

. I don't want to be a disrespectful prick like some on here have been, but I'd really like the mods to just enforce this standard they came to so you, me, and other users don't have explain why Nazism and pedophilia are bad things.

Rape is bad, Necrophilia is bad, Murder is bad. Should this imagery be banned on FA?

 

[TyraWadman]

One, Fur Affinity isn't a video game where context is provided in the storyline usually explaining why Nazism is undesirable. Also, video games are hardly the most historically accurate medium, so this is at best a weak argument.

Two, most art sites have rules them discretion to terminate art and accounts that promote Nazism or its Alt-Right derivatives, which meets most people's standards.

I'm guessing I'm more conservative than you, but I feel regardless of the possibility of bigots or pedophiles changing their minds, there needs to be a consistent set of standards against this content and sometimes you just hold to those standards rather than chasing people who probably won't change their minds even when presented with rational evidence.

I also want to say ... I don't think people who are users on an art site should have argue with people who are mentally not well about what clearly established societal standards are. I don't want to be a disrespectful prick like some on here have been, but I'd really like the mods to just enforce this standard they came to so you, me, and other users don't have explain why Nazism and pedophilia are bad things. I know people who have left the site because the endless debates around this stuff, artists who refuse to business on here because it will look bad to animation or comics industry, and writers who don't want to put their name on here because of the controversy.

I feel the site should consider those people as opposed to people asking to drawn Nazi art either be overtly or covertly signalling to fellow travellers or those looking to view art that is beyond societal standards, especially when both group are the primary trolls we see on here who bring nothing constructive to the community.

I'm not really associated with politics (left, right, conservative, liberal, etc). I don't understand what makes what and find it easily gets muddled. Aaaaaand also puts me to sleep. XD
But I'm not gonna lie, it would be nice to have someone that sets standards for themselves and doesn't shy away from it. Youtube isn't perfect, but I like that you can go through the comments without 13 year olds showing off how many swears they've learned. People flipped out about those changes. 4Chan would have a lot of people razing cities if they added any kind of filter or restriction. XD

I see that History_Furs will be dropping Axis-Powers depiction, with limitations they are put in. Especially when German soldiers and SS will be put under same symbol, implying they're the same.
I wonder will USSR furs gets same treatment. I doubt that.

Rape is bad, Necrophilia is bad, Murder is bad. Should this imagery be banned on FA?

Rape is an absolute yes to ban.
Necrophilia I think is subjective. As long as the person gave them consent before they died, it might be gross, but it's still consensual. Not very healthy though... XD
There is a lot of people getting off to snuff so I'm game. Again though, if you actually read what I'd posted, you ought to have more than that one line you quoted back to me. So I think it's safe to assume you're just getting upset for the sake of being upset.

 

[Miles Marsalis]

Rape is bad, Necrophilia is bad, Murder is bad. Should this imagery be banned on FA?

For the first two ... yes? Like, I feel most normal people would. It is also extremely telling you are deflecting like this because most people don't reply to being asked if drawn kiddie porn should be banned with asking if rape and necrophilia porn will be out the door as well.

Murder is more complicated as in if it is fetish, it should be absolutely banned because that is snuff. If it is a furry reenactment of Agatha Christie's books, then no.

I see that History_Furs will be dropping Axis-Powers depiction, with limitations they are put in. Especially when German soldiers and SS will be put under same symbol, implying they're the same.

I've seen History Furs. I'm sure they will get over it. But one of your fellow travelers definitely conflated German soldiers and the SS, so let's not act like this matters to everyone making the argument.

 

[Degorar]

I'm more concerned about, that site owner didn't gave rigid answer about additional content types.

"We're not going to be removing NSFW content. Again, we do not have intention of banning additional content at this time."

It's good he gave rigid answer about NSFW rating, but it can't be said about second part.
Word picking matters. They don't know what to ban right now. It implies they'll figure out what to ban next in their future next policy update, or maybe not. It's inconclusive statement.

Listen here, people. "just move to other place" Isn't the only factor. A lot of content, that was posted here after many years - will be lost forever. I will agree, that it's the confusion people learned that it's safe to leave their single copy of work on cloud (someone's computer), because it's convenient.
Others may not move out, because of their "deceased" status, for obvious reasons.
So only hope is if their fans will care enough to download everything and re-post it elsewhere.

So whatever art piece nobody archived yet - will be lost.
And future is rather dark, because we don't know what will be banned in future.
So we have to speculate what will be banned next.

I agree. Nobody is entitled to have the right to be on FA.
And FA is not entitled to have the audience.
It's two-way relationship.

Once FA plummets in audience user base - FA will be the only one to be put to blame.
And if that happens, FA will be remembered as a website who ditched their actually diverse interests groups of community for one single homogenized interest group.

Forgoing FA's it's own achievement, in uniting many furries with different interests which don't connect with everyone necessarily, but still everyone can see each other if they want to.

I disliked many fetishes, but despite that - I questioned people why they like it, which turned into mini discussions about our own world. It's like fetish talk turned into philosophy talk - it's beautiful moment I cherish.

And to see that piece by piece, FA is going to destroy this diverse community of ideas,thoughts,mindsets, so nobody would be "offended" - is disgusting.
People will be segregated onto other separate websites, less likely to create relationships with each other, because they mainly exist on different planes.
And we both know it's pain in the ass, to manage several profiles at same time.
But I guess it's how things are.

I love FA for being a middle-man who let me know about content and people I wouldn't meet, otherwise. Thank you.

Leaving FA isn't a big deal. Big deal is what FA is destroying what it built in so many years.

 

[quoting_mungo]

It's good he gave rigid answer about NSFW rating, but it can't be said about second part.
Word picking matters. They don't know what to ban right now. It implies they'll figure out what to ban next in their future next policy update, or maybe not. It's inconclusive statement.

Quite honestly? The reason why the administration of any service can’t commit to “we will never introduce any further content bans/restrictions ever” is that a certain subset of people are ludicrously into pushing boundaries. If people had followed the spirit of the original “no hate groups” rules, rather than go looking for loopholes, the rules wouldn’t have needed to be made more restrictive. Any time rules change, just assume that the reason is some dingus pushing boundaries and looking for loopholes in the letter of the law.

FA isn’t looking for shit to ban. It’s thrust upon them by people acting in bad faith.

 

[Degorar]

FA isn’t looking for shit to ban. It’s thrust upon them by people acting in bad faith.

Sounds like you admit, the site owner is a victim of circumstances.
If he's a victim, how he's gonna get remembered as in this quote:
"I want to be remembered for being violently purple."?

 

[Miles Marsalis]

Sounds like you admit, the site owner is a victim of circumstances.
If he's a victim, how he's gonna get remembered as in this quote:
"I want to be remembered for being violently purple."?

Correct if I am wrong, but isn't Fur Affinity basically the most successful furry art site? There is Weasyl, which is more or less a ghost town and Inkbunny, where pedophiles when after Fur Affinity started cracking on the kiddy porn art which some companies it did or had business with were concerned about, I believe.

Fur Affinity is basically the only substantial game in town. I feel an infinitesimal group of people with shady motives will be mad over this and maybe leave, but the vast majority of the userbase will not care or actively cheer about this decision.

Meanwhile, you are looking suspect complaining about this.

 

[quoting_mungo]

Sounds like you admit, the site owner is a victim of circumstances.
If he's a victim, how he's gonna get remembered as in this quote:
"I want to be remembered for being violently purple."?

No more than governments are/were a victim when the advent of the Internet resulted in needing new legislation when people used the Internet to do things they couldn’t legally do in person. It’s just a fact of policy making. People do stupid shit, you plug the loopholes they used to get away with it.

I don’t necessarily agree with all aspects of this policy change, but trying to act like it was enacted out of malice is silly and frankly more than a little tinfoil hatty.

As I’ve said before in this thread, if you fear art getting lost, save it. If you feel groups/governments should be covered that aren’t specifically named, put together a rational argument (that doesn’t just amount to McCarty-esque “but communism!”) and submit a trouble ticket. Trying to shift the focus onto art portraying illegal acts as though legality is the primary concern in banning depictions of historically recent or contemporary RL hate groups is just tossing red herrings into the water.

For the first two ... yes? Like, I feel most normal people would. It is also extremely telling you are deflecting like this because most people don't reply to being asked if drawn kiddie porn should be banned with asking if rape and necrophilia porn will be out the door as well.

I’m a little bit disappointed in you, in that you allowed yourself to be baited into what basically amounts to kink shaming. Rape fantasies are literally one of if not the most common kink in western society (at least I’m getting the impression that that’s the origin of the studies that make it over here); having had them is literally more common than not among women. If fictional depictions of illegal acts significantly contributed to the acceptance of those acts, I might agree, but I am not aware of any study suggesting that is the case. (And that would also result in the vast majority of mainstream media being unacceptable if we’re going to be honest.) While I’m not going to throw out everything about rape culture narratives as bullshit, there are so many aspects other than fictional depictions that would influence the growth of such societal attitudes; otherwise we’d see people being similarly accepting of non-sexual assault given the amount of positive depictions of beating people up there are in movies etc.

While I still have my reservations about aspects of the change in policy, I can’t not acknowledge that a lot of art featuring e.g. swaztikas posted to FA, especially in the last maybe five years, falls into one of a few camps: provocation/trolling/people trying to be edgy, people involved in hate groups or adjacent groups trying to skirt rules, or submissions that ultimately result in at least one person encouraging/condoning assault in violation of COC, either in the submission description or comments. All of these are problems in their own way, and two of the three can end up promoting hateful agendas. (Comments in the first two types of submissions, even before the hate group rules, had a tendency to have malicious speech violations crop up, so they are also a problem in that way.)

 

[Degorar]

This is future of FA, once they eliminate every "offensive","hateful","racist", politically incorrect users.
Give it time, and you'll be amazed that it'll turn into this

Now 3 years later below:

 

[ConorHyena]

I was holding off posting here, but clearly this thread isn't dead so I'll throw my two cents in.

I don't want to be presumptuous, but I feel like the mods could've closed or not had this thread in the first place. The policy update was perfectly reasonable and most sensible people would not be ardently arguing for Nazi art and what amounts kiddie porn. Many sites ban the former and the vast majority ban the latter for reasons that should be apparent. By opening this up for discussion, we now have people with very transparent motives arguing for right to draw swastikas for "historically accuracy" yet seem to know very little history and those who are feeling for slack to draw underage characters engaging in sex acts. One, the mere act of discussing this entertains that is actually acceptable behavior in society and online, which it isn't. Two, it makes the site and its users look like we have no standards whatsoever. I'm assuming this is permanent decision, so why bother to debate it?

Sometimes it just pays to stand your ground, no questions asked.

I agree with that, 100%. Well said, Miles.

 

[Miles Marsalis]

This is future of FA, once they eliminate every "offensive","hateful","racist", politically incorrect users.

See, I thought we were initially talking about whether Nazis could be depicted on Fur Affinity along with kiddie porn in art, but you're clearly laying down cover for these people, who quite frankly shouldn't be germane to the discussion at hand if you had honest intentions. If you were truly concerned about how less accurate depictions of Nazis might impact the historically-versed users on Fur Affinity (and I'm not even bothering to entertain the notion of accepting arguments for drawn underage porn), you would be solely focused on that issue without having to create a rhetorical safety net for the offensive, hateful, racist, politically incorrect users this policy update was created to address.

 

[Attaman]

I'll be blunt, y'all being lead around by the nose re: @Degorar . Anyone who's legitimately presenting the argument that removing explicit, pro-Nazi content and Nazi insignia is - by their own, non-twisted or misinterpreted words - "going to destroy this community of diverse ideas" (while also, under their breath, muttering "When will you get rid of those fucking Socialists and Commies?") is blatantly trying to soapbox. When they go further to fucking compare explicit, pro-Nazi content and insignia with art featuring Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Rome, or any fucking other culture as being literally indistinguishable, it's clear as fucking day that they're just trying to throw up chaff and doing the classic "DEBATE ME!" hoping to scum for recruits for whatever Neo-Nazi radicalization site / community they invariably peddle for.

Seriously: When this is the argument they try to put forward (while, again, shilling that "Actually I'd be perfectly fine if you silenced these groups", and repeatedly trying to slander Dragoneer's character to give their self a morale / character superiority, as well as posting "Checkmate Libs" videos out of the blue), the response should generally be summed up with a singular post of somebody going "Great! Farewell! Let the door hit your ass on the way out!".

 

[TyraWadman]

I’m a little bit disappointed in you, in that you allowed yourself to be baited into what basically amounts to kink shaming. Rape fantasies are literally one of if not the most common kink in western society (at least I’m getting the impression that that’s the origin of the studies that make it over here); having had them is literally more common than not among women. If fictional depictions of illegal acts significantly contributed to the acceptance of those acts, I might agree, but I am not aware of any study suggesting that is the case. (And that would also result in the vast majority of mainstream media being unacceptable if we’re going to be honest.) While I’m not going to throw out everything about rape culture narratives as bullshit, there are so many aspects other than fictional depictions that would influence the growth of such societal attitudes; otherwise we’d see people being similarly accepting of non-sexual assault given the amount of positive depictions of beating people up there are in movies etc.

I honestly think it's more about the actual rape. Like... rape fantasies are still technically consensual. Whereas regular rape, is not. BDSM you have a safe word. Torture does not.

 

[SSJ3Mewtwo]

I see the same points being asked over and over, despite the answers given by Dragoneer already.

Because I said I'd close this up if I saw things going in circles, and now I'm seeing questions about banning all historical discussion, I'm taking the stance that this thread has served its purpose and closing it.

People aren't asking productive questions anymore, and are just stirring the pot, when the site's ToS, CoC, and AUP answer their questions.