Kiev Protests: Well Bugger

[Yarem4]

even though the violence is a terrible way to get what you want. it takes some guts to do what they are doing.

I live in Venezuela and while the situation here is barely better than in Kiev, it's hard to make any progress because a lot of people are afraid of the government's criminal mercenaries.

 

[Migoto Da]

I'd be more afraid to fight in Venezuela than the Ukraine, specifically because the EU wouldn't be watching.


That and the government isn't afraid to put people down from what I've heard.

 

[Yarem4]

I'd be more afraid to fight in Venezuela than the Ukraine, specifically because the EU wouldn't be watching.


That and the government isn't afraid to put people down from what I've heard.

well,in Venezuela, when the opposition starts to actually make some progress some armed men on motorcycles(most likely mercenaries of the government) appear and start shooting everyone. not to mention that the government actually managed to put in jail the head of the opposition with false charges and no trial.

really the only reason why ukraine is reviving more attention is because in Venezuela this kind of stuff happens all the time -_-'

 

[Attaman]

really the only reason why ukraine is reviving more attention is because in Venezuela this kind of stuff happens all the time -_-'

To be fair, one of the main squares of Kiev being on fire for at least two days straight and at least two towns / districts declaring independence might also be playing a part in it.

 

[Cassedy]

People delegate Sergey Pashinsky caught with silenced sniper riffle. Supposedly, he used it to shoot "berkut" police and rioters as well (to claim later that they were victims of goverment)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl6RUgAMaiA&noredirect=1

 

[LauriJ]

Let's hope things settles down somewhat. I feel sorry for the poor souls caught in the conflict...

 

[Cassedy]

Okay, so I have just talked to my friend from Odessa about situation there (here's her FA profile http://www.furaffinity.net/user/darkarlett)
She said that martial law was announced, most services, including banks, stopped working. Goverment officially permitted police to use lethal weapons, not just for self-defence. People are being openly recruited on railway terminal, to join the rioters : they're provided food, ticket to Kiev, place to live there and 1000 grivens (ukrainian currency) a day for participation.
Internet and communications would be cut there at midnight today, and I won't hear about her ... only for a while, I hope.

 

[Rassah]

Was about to call my girl friend there and ask if she's ok. Guess that's not happening (no Skype)

 

[Yarem4]

To be fair, one of the main squares of Kiev being on fire for at least two days straight and at least two towns / districts declaring independence might also be playing a part in it.

true enough, however all this could only be done with the use of some rather violent tactics and lot's of fire. do you think any of that could be archived without the use of violence? (not the fire part mind you)

 

[Schwimmwagen]

People in Kiev being shot and killed.

BTR gets its ass burned. Sending such a vehicle at rioters, though?

Wounded medic. Pretty sure targeting medics is a war crime.

Another older video.

 

[Rassah]

I am actually very surprised that APCs are so... flamable...

 

[Migoto Da]

I am actually very surprised that APCs are so... flamable...

Heat makes metal and such weaker.

When you stack ~20 Molotovs onto one APC, it's easy to see how it may cease to function.

 

[Attaman]

Was about to call my girl friend there and ask if she's ok. Guess that's not happening (no Skype)

My best wishes towards her and her family, I hope they're safe.

BTR gets its ass burned. Sending such a vehicle at rioters, though?

As a note, this is two days old and coincides with the first attempted breach of the Protestors' Firewall. Armored vehicles... aren't very well rated against copious amounts of fire.

Wounded medic. Pretty sure targeting medics is a war crime.

To be fair, with everything going down (at least as of the time that photo was taken) it may not have been intentional (the shooting the medic aspect, not the "shooting at someone" aspect: Gunfire's been exchanged between both sides since Tues).

Also of note, a lot of the police officers that Yanu's been using in the blockades are young conscripts who haven't been fed and are barely trained in their equipment. Needless to say, this has not done much to motivate an already horrendously de-moraled force that is listening to the army go "Lolno" at the idea of intervention.

 

[Rassah]

By the way, it's shit like that that's also the reason I'm so anti authority and pro cryptocurrency. Any means of preventing aholes in power from getting money from those they opress...

 

[Migoto Da]

Cryptocurrency is an interesting prospect, actually.

 

[Attaman]

While we're still early on the derail, please​ don't turn this into a thread about Dogecoin or Bitcoin or the like.

 

[Rassah]

While we're still early on the derail, please​ don't turn this into a thread about Dogecoin or Bitcoin or the like.

Ok. What about topics about democracies being subverted, and power being stolen through fixed elections, followed by things like unlimited government borrowing and spending leading to enormous government debt placed on the citizens instead of the politicians doing the borrowing, and then when the citizens protest, some of them are forced to keep others in line through conscription, and everyone else is forced to pay for the conscripted ones to keep them down (tax). Basically everyone is forced to keep themselves down, while the "elected" ones get to take all they can.

Though from what I'm told, while some of what's going on in Ukraine may be The People v.s. The Opressors, much of it could also be Crooks A v.s. Crooks B

 

[Migoto Da]

Revolutions worry me mainly because the new people in power could be just as bad, if not worse, than the old people.

 

[Attaman]

Ok. What about topics about

If you want to talk about the situation in the Ukraine itself (since most people here don't have much knowledge about the situation outside "Pro-Russia and Pro-EU side are butting heads", which in itself is still highly inaccurate and misinformative), yes. Otherwise? No. You can point to this thread or the subject of it if you'd like to make a thread on the subject "Anarchy Yay or Nay", but I'd rather not see a thread about what may very well be an up-and-coming full-blown revolution derailed to talk about why taxes are totes oppression.

 

[Yarem4]

Revolutions worry me mainly because the new people in power could be just as bad, if not worse, than the old people.

I remember that once there was a revolution to overthrow the ex-president Hugo Chavez from Venezuela. it was successful and he was taken to Cuba somewhere but the guy that tried to act as a substitute tried to change all the rules in the constitution so the people said "fuk naw" and took Chavez back as the president again.

and that proves that first impressions may be the only impression you leave, ever.

 

[Jashwa]

If you want to talk about the situation in the Ukraine itself (since most people here don't have much knowledge about the situation outside "Pro-Russia and Pro-EU side are butting heads", which in itself is still highly inaccurate and misinformative), yes. Otherwise? No. You can point to this thread or the subject of it if you'd like to make a thread on the subject "Anarchy Yay or Nay", but I'd rather not see a thread about what may very well be an up-and-coming full-blown revolution derailed to talk about why taxes are totes oppression.

Don't worry, I personally won't let it get derailed like that.

My knowledge of the situation is basically to the simplified "Pro Russia vs Pro EU" sections. Is there anything you could link to or could you explain in a little more detail how this started and what the actual divide is caused by other than how the protesters have been treated? I can't find anything much more than "Pro Eu vs Pro Russia" and "People are dying everywhere. Here's a bodycount and pictures.".

 

[Shà nwà ng]

I'd like to hear about more too. Pro-Russia v.s EU+West seems to be the narrative that's been spit out all over the news media but of course it's a number of issues that have piled up, right? I know that protesting started in November after talks with the EU stopped but people really started protesting when the Yanu led government decided to pass a number of draconian laws limiting protesting, etc. Internally, isn't there an East-West divide as well? I know that Yanukovich can't win a second ballot election through a number of corrupt electioneering tactics without a large enough legitimate block of voters putting him and his party into power, so just what sort of tensions have driven Ukraine into what seems to be the start of a civil war.

 

[Attaman]

My knowledge of the situation is basically to the simplified "Pro Russia vs Pro EU" sections. Is there anything you could link to or could you explain in a little more detail how this started and what the actual divide is caused by other than how the protesters have been treated? I can't find anything much more than "Pro Eu vs Pro Russia" and "People are dying everywhere. Here's a bodycount and pictures.".

My knowledge isn't much better, though Shànwàng has briefly touched on some of what I am aware of (See: Draconian laws).

Some of the tension relates to Yanukovych being what amounts to a handpuppet for other powers (especially apparent when, during the recent chaos, Yanukovych was often interrupting meetings with his advisors or the like to try contacting Putin to ask him "Wat do"). While this blends in with the Pro-Russia / Pro-EU* somewhat, it's an issue both sides aren't exactly thrilled with.

Some of the tensions relate to the fact that much of the nation never quite realized it left the Soviet Union, with there being fairly credible rumors of political activists (all the way up to 2013) disappearing from places like hospitals to be found dead in the woods many miles away (often beaten into a bloody pulp).

Some of it's that the Ukraine's economy has been rather shaky and unstable even before the upset caused by the protests. Several nations have already begun seriously contemplating the Ukraine Defaulting a matter of "When" and not "If" (and a lot of those "When" scenarios are being answered with "Much sooner than any of us would like").

To refer back to *, while Pro-EU and Pro-Russia have generally been seen as the most vocal sides in this engagement there are a number of other political ideologies (as well as both radical / moderate divides within aforementioned -EU / -Russia groups), along with some ethnical concerns as well.

Unfortunately I wasn't looking into this until just after all of this started (and much of what I've heard / found has been only moderately more substantial than the above) so I can't give a full-on rundown.

 

[Rassah]

if you'd like to make a thread on the subject "Anarchy Yay or Nay"...

It's not so much anarchy, as a very possibly stolen election for a seat that has nearly dictatorial powers, held by a corrupt corporatist oligarch, versus not wanting any of that in what's supposed to be an actual democracy. I'm glad that with today's agreements, that's actually what they are going for.

I talked on the phone with a few people living there. The protests were basically a culmination of all the prior grievances, with the president's reneging on the EU plan being the last straw. Many people don't believe his election was legitimate, many are worried that he has so much power, many more are pissed at the economy. Ukraine apparently didn't really leave the Soviet style economy when it comes to their government, continuing to find tons of social projects and programs, including government pensions. Their economy is not able to actually sustain all that spending, so they have been running up enormous government debt, along with having their own currency inflate like crazy. As a result, people are losing money, and government is threatening to cut social support, including for old folks. That is obviously pissing off a lot of people, and is at the core of the EU vs Russia debate. Ukraine wants to have one of the sides give them a bailout loan. Although Russia promised a bigger bailout, many Ukrainians hate Russia for the whole Soviet Union thing, and because Russia is basically run by a dictator. They are afraid of being indebted and losing their freedom. And despite EU offering less support, many there see EU as a beacon of freedom. So most of the west wants to join EU instead. I don't know about the East. They may only be concerned about their own government being too dictatorial.

TL;DR Overly socialist government kept taking more power, fucked up the economy, and now that everyone is pissed, refuses to leave.

 

[Cassedy]

Although Russia promised a bigger bailout.

Not just "promised". We already gave them 7 milliards of $. While EU still thinks about lending help.

many there see EU as a beacon of freedom

That beacon of freedom didn't help much the other countries, who escaped "the russian grip", like Latvia.