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Kojima's ego too large for 50 GB Blu-ray discs.

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/03/02/kojima-mgs4-too-big-for-50-gb-blu-ray-disc/

That's a pretty large interactive movie.
 

ADF

Member
Wow… yeah, wow.

I’m all for better quality; but using next to no compression whatsoever is a tad excessive.
 

Zero_Point

Member
ShagsterP said:
Heh. Variations of three lines.

But what does packing a game to the brim have anything to do with his ego? If someone wants to pioneer forward and make full use of blu-ray's capacity, more power to them.

I'm going to recite a discussion I had in another forum a long time ago when Blu-ray was first announced:
Me: Seriously, you think game devs will spend all that time and effort to create 50GB of game data?
Person: Well, true hi-def video uses about 5GB per hour... so that's 45GB for FMVs and 5 GB for game data.
Me: You mean to tell me you're willing to sit through 9 hours of cutscenes? o_0
 

hkMolotov

New Member
I thought all of the cutscenes were done in-engine and in real time though. So what would be taking up all of that space? The textures aren't all that amazing, I think the audio is only in 5.1 and in the local language, so it doesn't make sense why it would take up so much space.
 

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
ShagsterP said:
But what does packing a game to the brim have anything to do with his ego? If someone wants to pioneer forward and make full use of blu-ray's capacity, more power to them.
He's not pioneering anything, he's just not compressing anything and whining (AKA. Not using his resources properly).

I have around 260 episodes of various animes that amount to 85 hours, 48 minutes and 19 seconds of Anime watching entertainment (I've barely watched 12 at max) in 42gb. I still have 8gb left and I already have 86 hours of video and audio.
 

Eevee

Banned
Banned
Given that Resistance would have fit on a DVD, I can't fathom what the hell he is padding this space with.
 

Tudd

Member
Eevee,

Padding in itself improves the read time of a disc. However its been disputed whether or not the location of the data on the disc affects the read speed for BD.

Bokracroc,

At what resolution? This is PS3, the minimum is 720P. Using a VC-1 codec the average range for video bitrate is 17-10 Mbps. What quality is the audio encoded at?

Now before anyone starts claiming theres a difference between 7.1 and 5.1 in terms of file size for a video game, consider this. The developers don't know which direction you're going to be facing for the entire duration of the game and therefore most of the sound effects that you'll notice (gun shots, foot steps, etc.) have to placed in the sound field in real time. Therefore most of the audio files are mono, not 5.1. As for uncompressed audio, it does cut down on the ammount of work the PS3 has to do because it doesn't have to decode the audio before placing it in the sound field and applying any filters or effects. The difference between 7.1 and 5.1 does make a big difference in filesize for a set soundtrack but for one that is being created in real time there isn't too big of a difference.

The best about this whole compression issue is, there are few people with the hardware to notice any difference. After that theres an even smaller number of people who care.
 

ADF

Member
hkMolotov said:
I thought all of the cutscenes were done in-engine and in real time though. So what would be taking up all of that space? The textures aren't all that amazing, I think the audio is only in 5.1 and in the local language, so it doesn't make sense why it would take up so much space.
Heard of Bink video? It is a new favourite of console game developers this generation.

Basically it can take a pre rendered video and make it look in game, jaggies and all. So you can pull off all sorts of mad effects that otherwise would have been impossible to do in real time, while the viewer thinks that’s simply how great their console is. Take Stranglehold for instance; that game used volumetric liquids and smoke in its cut scenes that would have been too resource intensive in real time, yet thanks to Bink video it looks real time. Games that run fine, but get a pretty bad performance hit during fast cut scenes can also benefit from Bink video.

It is not as successful in PC games however because on a PC monitor you can see all the quality flaws in the video, defeating the real time look. I don’t know if MGS4 uses Bink video at all, but it could be a possibility.
 

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
Sound for Surround Sound is Mono. The Surround Sound tells it where to come from. So it comes down to excessively high audio quality
There's no real excuse for it not to fit on a 50GB disc short of him using excessively files and over-detailed/sized textures/sound/whatever.

I have 32 Game disc images (CD and DVD) and that comes to a total 47GB. I could fit 29 different games (plus 3 expansions) into one Blu-Ray disc (well at-least Install/Play disc images. Yes, I know it's a totally different type of file, I'm just demonstrating what you can fit into a 50GB Blu-Ray disc) while he can't fit one.
He's definitely doing something wrong and it's clearly his fault.
 

Tudd

Member
Sorry I never made it clear my actual opinion on this... I agree with you but I'm just pointing out without context (your example and Kojima's) we cannot do much. I have a feeling this is more for media coverage than anything else. On a side note, the section on sound was directed to all.

*Edit* Heres something I found interesting posted in the comment section of the original link

They repeating the same data many times so the long access times of Blueray wont be an issue.
***BRx2 in PS3 has access times excessing 350ms.***

Every laser jump for data have serious delays.
You need smart cashing (takes memory!) or instalation on HDD.
OR you repeat data so laser position doesn't change and drive in PS3 doesn't need to spin up /spin down to keep 2x spped (BR in PS3 is CVL - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_linear_velocity )

So to not to have nessessary MANDATORY install (think 5GB in Hot Shot Golf 5, Lost Planet , Devil May Cry) basic data will be repated for every level.

Not the first game, not the last on PS3 uses this method of reducing problems with slow BR drive.
 

Evangeline

Member
Has anyone found it funny, none of the PS3 fanboys are complaining that it can be put on 2 Blu ray disks to keep everything in there that they wanted to cut out, cause they know if they bring that up the 360 fanboys will all jump on board saying if it takes 2 Blu ray disks, then why not multiple disks for the 360.

Look at Lost Oddessy, it's 4 disks and haven't seen anyone complain about it yet.
 

Silver R. Wolfe

Wuffamute Extraordinaire!
Evangeline said:
Has anyone found it funny, none of the PS3 fanboys are complaining that it can be put on 2 Blu ray disks to keep everything in there that they wanted to cut out, cause they know if they bring that up the 360 fanboys will all jump on board saying if it takes 2 Blu ray disks, then why not multiple disks for the 360.

Look at Lost Oddessy, it's 4 disks and haven't seen anyone complain about it yet.

Maybe because they're too busy complaining with the actual quality of the game.
 

Stratelier

Well-Known Member
Has anyone found it funny, none of the PS3 fanboys are complaining that it can be put on 2 Blu ray disks to keep everything in there that they wanted to cut out, cause they know if they bring that up the 360 fanboys will all jump on board saying if it takes 2 Blu ray disks, then why not multiple disks for the 360.
Blue Dragon took, what, three discs on the 360?

The problem with multiple-disc games is the amount of redundant data it has to contain, which limits the proportion of disc-specific information (events and scripting). PSX FF7 thru 9, Chrono Cross... the list goes on.

Which reminds me, on PSX Legend of Dragoon there were some areas that if you backtracked to them it would actually require you to insert the previous disc to enter.

So there's your inherent tradeoff of multi-disc games: On one end you have a lot of redundant data limiting the length of any given disc (and to a lesser extent increasing the # of discs required), while on the other end the discs have a lot more exclusive data but the player is required to switch discs more often.
 

ADF

Member
They should have just given them bigger HDD if you ask me, drive space is cheap and it is going to run better than loading from a disk. How they can get away charging £100+ for a 120GB HDD is beyond me, you can get 400GB for £50.

I don’t know whether I should laugh or pity the people who actually think these things are good value.
 

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
Console gaming has survived for 20 years without a solid dependence on a HDD, why should they now? They just get to play with better specs.
 

ADF

Member
Well seeing how consoles have taken to becoming more PC like and have decided to include HDDs why not take advantage of them? Some games actually do install content to the HDD for faster loading now, if disk format wars and capacity is such an issue then eliminate the issue. The number of disks and their type suddenly become irrelevant when they are installed on a large capacity HDD and only use one disk to run.

What I find ridicules is 360, despite being closer to PC than PS3, requires overpriced 360 standard HDD while PS3 can use certain types of PC HDD for superior capacity/price.
 

Tudd

Member
For consumers to miss things such as that its not all that uncommon. I know many people who believe it costs the same to buy the "Core" and all of the accessories to match the "Premium" 360. After buying just the HDD you're already over the $100 difference.
 

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
ADF said:
Well seeing how consoles have taken to becoming more PC like and have decided to include HDDs why not take advantage of them? Some games actually do install content to the HDD for faster loading now, if disk format wars and capacity is such an issue then eliminate the issue. The number of disks and their type suddenly become irrelevant when they are installed on a large capacity HDD and only use one disk to run.

Because then consoles will be treated like PC games and you'll start to see flaws that plague PC games.

Oh wait... a lot already do :roll:
Screw playtesting a game, just finish it and spit-polish it. If it has bugs, we can patch it! : D : D
 
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