Medieval - Pre WW2 History Thread

[O.D.D.]

Going back to the utter insanity of the Western Front for a moment I am reminded of a quote: "It is good that war is terrible, lest we grow fond of it."

The way that quote falls apart can be seen in WW1 easily - WW1 presented unprecedented (to that time anyway) levels of "terrible", an unpleasantness that many of the war's most strident advocates were completely or near completely insulated from. Without having to face the monstrosity of the WW1 battlefield themselves, commanders, leaders and citizenry who were pro war were free to feed people into a meat grinder with little real consequence - from the aforementioned ordering of bayonet charges at MG nests to more subtly pernicious things like White Feather campaigns. The Christmas Truce was a remarkable event that was looked poorly upon by those not in the trenches, to the point of threats of desertion charges being leveled against participants. The White Feather campaigns were particularly reprehensible - a mass shaming campaign leveled against any man or boy perceived as being capable of fighting, that was not actively going out and dying at that precise moment.

 

[Attaman]

To refer back to those ACOUP articles,

Link

As Robert Doughty (op. cit.) notes quite effectively, after the desperate search in 1915 for ways either around the trench stalemate or through it (either way trying to restore a war of maneuver), Joseph Joffre, French chief of the army staff, settled on a strategic plan coordinating British, Italian, French and Russian actions designed around a strategy of ‘rupture’ by which what was meant was that if all of the allies focused on attrition in each of their various theaters, eventually one theater would break for lack of resources (that’s the rupture). He was pretty damn explicit about this, writing about the war as a “struggle of attrition” in May, 1915 and setting a plan of action in December of 1915 to “do everything they can to attrit the adversary.”

Joffre’s plan did not go perfectly (the German offensive at Verdun upset the time-tables) but it did, in fact mean lower French losses in 1916 than in 1915 or 1914 and more severe German losses. Meanwhile, the German commander, Erich von Falkenhayn would at least subsequently claim to have been trying to do the same thing: achieve favorable casualty ratios in a war of attrition, with his set piece being the Battle of Verdun, designed to draw the French into bloody and useless repeated counter-attacks on ground that favored the Germans (there remains a lot of argument and uncertainty as to if that attritional strategy was the original plan, or merely Falkenhayn’s excuse for the failure to achieve meaningful strategic objectives at Verdun). In the end, the Verdun strategy, if that was the strategy, failed because while the Germans could get their favorable ratio on the attack, it slipped away from them in the inevitable French counter-attacks.

But as Clausewitz reminds us (drink!) will – both political and popular – is a factor in war too (indeed, it is one of the factors as part of the Clausewitzian trinity!). Both Joffre and Falkenhayn had to an extent seen that the war was going to run until one side ran out of soldiers and material and aimed to win that long, grueling war; for which they were both promptly fired! The solution to the war which said that all one needed to do was sacrifice a few more million soldiers and wait 2, or perhaps 3 or maybe even 4 more years for the enemy to run out first was unacceptable to either the political leaders or the public.

This is multiple exceedingly high ranked officers who independently came to the conclusion that the most pragmatic way to win, quote Bret again, was

asking them to send their sons to fight, to endure more rationing, more shortages, more long casualty lists with the explanation that you had no plans to win the war beyond running Germany out of sons slightly faster than you ran France out of sons

That's a helluva proposal.

 

[O.D.D.]

To refer back to those ACOUP articles,

This is multiple exceedingly high ranked officers who independently came to the conclusion that the most pragmatic way to win, quote Bret again, was

That's a helluva proposal.

It would be if it weren't rather ordinary for brassholes, jingoists and ninnies to demand such things overtly or covertly even today - "drown them in blood and bodies, as long as it's not mine"

It tends to be predicated more often on sheer greed these days rather than any kind of desire to appear strong or a genuine conviction or hatred of some sort, but while history may or may not repeat it certainly does rhyme. Most, if not all of the people at or near the top are very comfortable with signing your death warrant for material gain and other forms of personal utility.

 

[Fallowfox]

The BBC has a three part series on the history of Vienna on their streaming service.

The first two episodes would be relevant to this thread. Certainly you will be struck with an astonishment of the gruesomeness of life in medieval central Europe, and the depravity of its warlord monarchies.

One of the less outrageous examples was king Rudolf the second, who allowed a 'tame' tiger to roam his palace.

Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The 'more' outrageous examples cannot be discussed in polite company!

 

[O.D.D.]

Being nearly completely insulated from the consequences of idiotic or malicious decisions coupled with vast resources to expend upon such decisions will turn most people into monsters of varying caliber over time.

 

[KimberVaile]

Good thread, but it's utterly ridiculous that we don't have a general history thread. (no offence to the OP. even though you're a bit too histrionic for your own good. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for sticking up for the guy you fucked over. Seriously, he messaged me after that thing and gave me some fairly critical information about the situation. I'm not going to hold it against you but yeah, you almost contributed to a suicide and you're not as clean as you wish to present). The recent history of the world, you see, is of great interest to me. 1600 to 1900 are fascinating times, although as it relates to Europe they're an embarassment to the world. Too many silly pricks drunk on their own sense of superiority and the glory of war to be truly worthwhile. We increasingly got high on the idea of prestige and glory to realize we were sending those that make up the majority of our society out to senseless deaths. Although those people didn't matter as they were below the nobility, the only people of value of course. Thank fuck we've grown from there. Here is a video about some senseless war that makes this post relevant.

This video brought to you by cabernet sauvignon, the greatest red wine to exist in all of history.

I'm glad to return to this thread only to find it full of conflict and shit like this. This forum is full of fun surprises it seems.

Seriously, what is your fucking problem? Yeah, that'll endear me to you, you know bring up the guy who is a pathological liar that stalks me in my history thread and pin it on me for not wanting to associate with him. It's the type of shit that only somebody whose alt was his (Kyr) would say, just saying.
Develop better social skills, because social etiquette clearly isn't your forte, or critical thinking for that matter.

You're clearly just here to cause issues.

 

[Punji]

Good thread, but it's utterly ridiculous that we don't have a general history thread. (no offence to the OP. even though you're a bit too histrionic for your own good. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for sticking up for the guy you fucked over. Seriously, he messaged me after that thing and gave me some fairly critical information about the situation. I'm not going to hold it against you but yeah, you almost contributed to a suicide and you're not as clean as you wish to present).

I don't really think this is the most appropriate place for an irrelevant call-out post about a situation you may not fully understand.

The last history thread had too much drama already, can't we all just have nice things for once?

 

[KimberVaile]

I don't really think this is the most appropriate place for an irrelevant call-out post about a situation you may not fully understand.

The last history thread had too much drama already, can't we all just have nice things for once?

It is rather morose, that I can unironically remark that you'd probably be asking too much from these forums.

 

[Yakamaru]

"The definition of insanity is repeating the same things over and over again expecting different results."

 

[KimberVaile]

I am going to go out on a limb and say @KimberVaile doesn't want their pre-WWII Military History thread turning into "Discuss WWII specifically who were worse the Communists or the Nazis?".

So while I do genuinely enjoy discussion of logistical aspects and whatnot (and, indeed, the ACOUP articles I mentioned earlier even go on a tangent discussing logistical, materiel, and tactical advances between WWI and WWII), it might be better to either ask Kimber if they're fine having that discussion in this thread (after all, it looks like the main point of the 'Pre-WWII' was less out of disinterest and more because nine times out of ten people mentioned "Let's talk Military History online" you're going to get 80% WWII, 15% Romans, 4.5% American Civil War, 0.5% Other) or to create a sister thread specifically relating to WWII and its military hardware, strategies, etcetera.

And also probably drop the "Who was worse, Hitler or Stalin?" outright. Because even discounting my own biases (which certain users may insist are why I'd request this), any discussion that starts to try quantifying "What's more evil?" with things like genocide, disappearing people, ideological purges, et al is going to be a mess even before the forum's ' "No Politics" rule comes into the equation. Besides, it's not like if people do want to engage in such exercises like there's any shortage of candidates pre-WWII to draw from. "You see, gentlemen. If we can just convince our population to throw a few million more of their children into the meat grinder, we can win through sheer attrition by the end of the decade" is a hell of a military strategy, and one that was genuinely floated by multiple ranking generals in multiple militaries during WWI, for example. Similarly "If we kill enough of their non-combatant civilian population they'll sue for peace!"

Getting back on track.
Since I was away for a bit, was not able to address this.
Anyways, that would be correct Attaman. Thank you for bringing up the concern.

 

[Hir]

I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for sticking up for the guy you fucked over. Seriously, he messaged me after that thing and gave me some fairly critical information about the situation. I'm not going to hold it against you but yeah, you almost contributed to a suicide and you're not as clean as you wish to present).

you're allowing yourself to be manipulated by an absolute monster that has been convicted of violent stalking for plotting against my life - repeatedly. and that isn't the only life they plotted against either, they've done it to several people before and have a violent criminal history and have a history of threatening to kill others. whether you believe kimber is 'clean' in this situation or not, kyr is insane and in need of serious psychiatric help that nobody else involved in this was able to offer and as we tried to distance ourselves from his toxic, diabolical and destructive behaviour he did some things that shocked others into disbelief. he talks about his suicide but nobody talks about mine due to his repeated credible threats against my life due to him having once being my neighbour and knowing where i lived, my route to work, the places i hanged out. this is who you're sticking up for.

your grudge against kimber is your own business but for your own good do not allow this guy to latch onto you. he will not let go and the moment you realise how much of a monster it is, it'll be too late - you'll be his next obsession and he'll never let go of you psychologically. this isn't some petty furry bullshit - this is real, had serious IRL consequences for me and if you keep reaching into this situation you'll end up burned.

but you know what might be better? stop bringing him up. period. he deserves absolutely no airtime on a forum he's been rightfully banned from. he gets a kick out of this. i still remember watching him turning his router off for 12 hours so his IP would reset (seemingly unaware you could do this in command prompt in 30 seconds) so he could come onto the forum and spread more hatred to a community he had zero love for. the situation between kyr and me, kimber, countless others - it's complex. and you're hearing it from someone who threatened to kill people so y'know what, what kind of bias do you think is going to be there? just let him fade into the obscurity he deserves.

edit: oh, and i'm more of a pinor noir kinda guy.

edit edit: oh and if a mod has a concern about a post being in the wrong place... i'd much rather you DM me about the fact that this guy is repeatedly brought up and weaponised against people. this is about an IRL crime that's been taken to court and resolved. i can give you all the information you require about this guy's conduct. you guys need to stop allowing him to be brought up indirectly through other people. do your job so i don't have to repeatedly go through my traumas to ensure people don't give this monster airtime.

 

[TyraWadman]

Good thread, but it's utterly ridiculous that we don't have a general history thread. (no offence to the OP. even though you're a bit too histrionic for your own good. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for sticking up for the guy you fucked over. Seriously, he messaged me after that thing and gave me some fairly critical information about the situation. I'm not going to hold it against you but yeah, you almost contributed to a suicide and you're not as clean as you wish to present)

Does this really serve to accomplish anything?

If the guy's mental stop antagonizing him, it's not hard.
I doubt anyone's hands are clean in this clusterfuck, but it's none of our business. Take it somewhere else.

Sorry to everyone else for adding to the pile. I just thought it would be an important reminder from yourself.

I have only seen or heard of 'Kyr' through them stalking/doxxing here on FAF (repeatedly). Even as an outsider looking in and not knowing anything more about anyone, Kyr is clearly in desperate need of therapy. Possibly even medication. Don't let pity blind you. If someone can't let go of their ex, despite the claims of severe mental distress they were allegedly put through, there is something seriously wrong with them and it would be wise to leave that work to the professionals (and not just make passive-aggressive jabs at people who otherwise haven't said nor mentioned anything of it since).

 

[Hir]

they desperately need mental help. when i was clearing out their old flat that they trashed and abandoned i found an appointment for counselling in writing that they didn't attend due to fleeing the city. i don't know how much help they're getting now, or what medication they're on - but they're deluded about the entire situation. whether that's their fault or not, i can't tell you.

but none of us owed him anything - we had every right to cut ties. his mental health is, and will always be, his responsibility and his business. his stalking/doxxing is true, he doxxed kimber and sent letters to his home address. he knew my home address due to being my neighbour - spent many nights in my flat at the time as a friend. i arguably knew him better than anybody. i earnestly, genuinely tried to help him for years. he won't admit that, probably because in his mental state he doesn't realise it. but realise when you are talking to him you are talking to someone through the mental gaze of someone who is mentally ill and deluded.

but also understand you're talking to victims of that, people who are extremely hurt by his actions. it can be tough to see things in a balanced view from that. i often forget it's someone who's mentally ill and feel extremely hurt and angry from the huge upheaval in my life he caused.

i ask you very, very kindly and firmly - stop bringing him up. it helps nobody and only compounds any of the issues he's facing, stopping him from having any chance of seeing things in a more balanced way. he'll never move on if this place repeatedly brings him back.

 

[Frank Gulotta]

 

[DieselPowered]

I'm glad to return to this thread only to find it full of conflict and shit like this. This forum is full of fun surprises it seems.

Seriously, what is your fucking problem? Yeah, that'll endear me to you, you know bring up the guy who is a pathological liar that stalks me in my history thread and pin it on me for not wanting to associate with him. It's the type of shit that only somebody whose alt was his (Kyr) would say, just saying.
Develop better social skills, because social etiquette clearly isn't your forte or critical thinking for that matter.

You're clearly just here to cause issues.

This is what i get for drunkposting on a furry forum. The guy thanked me for sticking up for him and let me know some details from his side, lo and behold monsters don't exist. Simple as that. I don't care about your grudges or old wounds, and i've seen well enough how you treat people around here to know there was a grain of truth in what i was told. Now pack in the insults or i'll start treating you like you treat others who tell you things you don't like.

Now, back to something that's actually interesting.

 

[Nexus Cabler]

This is what i get for drunkposting on a furry forum. The guy thanked me for sticking up for him and let me know some details from his side, lo and behold monsters don't exist. Simple as that. I don't care about your grudges or old wounds, and i've seen well enough how you treat people around here to know there was a grain of truth in what i was told. Now pack in the insults or i'll start treating you like you treat others who tell you things you don't like.

Now, back to something that's actually interesting.

Hi Diesel, I see you haven't learned anything from the last outcome for when you pulled this little stunt.

I wasn't planning on derailing the this thread, but you just had to go and be disgusting when no body was doing anything. You are willfully ignorant of the person you are defending, and using their testimony to target users you aren't fond of.

It's shallow, obvious, and displays forum behavior I haven't seen in a while. (The kind that's not what one should be proud of, in case you were unaware)
You have no merit, nor solid evidence contrary to Hir's experiences (who has already told you that he doesn't want this garbage brought up). You only bring to the table a obvious grudge masquerading as "sticking up for the little guy".

It ain't a good look for you, Diesel.

You do not have any right to be threatening to be nasty towards others, so don't even try it, sweetie. It won't go well for you.

 

[TyraWadman]

I think the best solution would be to ignore(block) the user. If they try to use the excuse of drunkposting on one of your threads again, at least it will be something mods can take action against.

 

[KimberVaile]

This is what i get for drunkposting on a furry forum. The guy thanked me for sticking up for him and let me know some details from his side, lo and behold monsters don't exist. Simple as that. I don't care about your grudges or old wounds, and i've seen well enough how you treat people around here to know there was a grain of truth in what i was told. Now pack in the insults or i'll start treating you like you treat others who tell you things you don't like.

Now, back to something that's actually interesting.

I treat people as they treat me, so don't come whining to me that I'm throwing your bile back in your face. You threw the first punch, and now you're sore you got hit back. I'm not going to apologize for defending myself from blatant bullshit and insults. (Believe it or not, I didn't set up this history thread with the intent of obtaining what your opinion on me is.) But yes, how dare I prevent people from using me as a doormat.
Are you really trying to threaten me like he did? What a beacon of morality you are. I can see why you two get along so well.

 

[DieselPowered]

Hi Diesel, I see you haven't learned anything from the last outcome for when you pulled this little stunt.

I wasn't planning on derailing the this thread, but you just had to go and be disgusting when no body was doing anything. You are willfully ignorant of the person you are defending, and using their testimony to target users you aren't fond of.

It's shallow, obvious, and displays forum behavior I haven't seen in a while. (The kind that's not what one should be proud of, in case you were unaware)
You have no merit, nor solid evidence contrary to Hir's experiences (who has already told you that he doesn't want this garbage brought up). You only bring to the table a obvious grudge masquerading as "sticking up for the little guy".

It ain't a good look for you, Diesel.

You do not have any right to be threatening to be nasty towards others, so don't even try it, sweetie. It won't go well for you.

I found myself thrown into this shit, i shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. Yes. Unfortunately i am, and unfortunately i will stick up for the little guy. No grudges here, simply an opinion that goes against the grain. I have a tendency to do that, and if people want to throw shit my way for it so be it. Now if you want this buried i suggest you don't drag it out.

 

[Rimna]

I see monke I press like

 

[Hir]

i will stick up for the little guy.

your little guy threatened to kill people. multiple people.

this isn't some petty furry drama - this went to court. and i won.

at this point i'm convinced you're being intentionally belligerent and playing devil's advocate.

I found myself thrown into this shit, i shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place.

play stupid games, win stupid prizes. we warned you about this guy - he's dangerous. now you're headfirst into a fight you know nothing about and the moment you realize it's too late to get out of it, he'll latch onto you too.

good luck with that, diesel.

 

[Fallowfox]

The dramas herein are beyond my comprehension.

 

[Hir]

I've contacted staff to try and control this and they've done nothing. I'm tired of being the person setting this straight.

I'm surprised diesel hasn't reached out directly to me if he wanted to know what really happened.

 

[TyraWadman]

I've contacted staff to try and control this and they've done nothing. I'm tired of being the person setting this straight.

I'm surprised diesel hasn't reached out directly to me if he wanted to know what really happened.

Well, in this particular instance, you'd first have to block Diesel. And then any other time they attempt to contact you, they can take action. Either that or they just haven't gotten to your ticket yet.

Kimber would need to do the same to preserve their current/future thread(s). I know it's not fair that y'all have to keep adapting, but I'm sure the silence will be nicer than the former.

 

[Attaman]