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My General Take on Pride Month

Would make a wonderful excuse when a gay person decides he wants to be an asshole.
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"Goddamn it dude why you being such a dick?"
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"You're straight."
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This is the perfect example of Pride going too far.

That isn't pride, that is othering and gross generalization. Pride refers to an assessment of one's own value and accomplishments, whether taken too far or not. The argument being presented is that people under the LGBT umbrella are normally deemed of lesser value by society (less extremely than ever but still), while straight people can feel comfortable in their existence and self worth. Being proud of being gay and having that self worth does not justify belittling others. That isn't to say some people don't use that as an irrational and wrong argument for being a bellend to straight people, because humans are such wonderful exemplars of rationality and logic. With enough stupidity, any valid argument can be used out of context as a verbal bludgeon.

LGBT exists primarily for anyone who doesn't fit the straight cis norm, as an activism focus for civil rights. It allows people to be a part of a group or collective instead of the other or outsider in the normal collective of society. It should serve as an identity to bring a sense of belonging and unity of purpose, but after the gays got most of their rights people started turning into the boys club, girls club, and "WELL YOU ARE IN A STRAIGHT RELATIONSHIP SO YOU AREN'T REALLY BI", and "TRANS WOMEN AREN'T REALLY WOMEN!", etc. Whatever unity that civil rights movement had really has begun to go into decay, as individual identities split off into their own cliques. And nobody wants to go to a parade for inclusion to be told how much they don't belong.

As a period of celebration and awareness it works, but some parades are probably guilty of turning it into borderline kinkfests. While some countries probably need a kink parade or two *cough*UK*cough* a lot of LGBT people are actually put off by that, about as much as furries are put off by people who wear kink stuff to general furcons.
 

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
That isn't pride, that is othering and gross generalization. Pride refers to an assessment of one's own value and accomplishments, whether taken too far or not. The argument being presented is that people under the LGBT umbrella are normally deemed of lesser value by society (less extremely than ever but still), while straight people can feel comfortable in their existence and self worth. Being proud of being gay and having that self worth does not justify belittling others. That isn't to say some people don't use that as an irrational and wrong argument for being a bellend to straight people, because humans are such wonderful exemplars of rationality and logic. With enough stupidity, any valid argument can be used out of context as a verbal bludgeon.
Perhaps I am not choosing my words correctly; maybe a more accurate description is "entitlement" which I think tends to go hand-in-hand with pride (you wouldn't be able to claim entitlement to anything if you weren't proud of something). So many LGBT people and even minorities in general tend to feel entitled that "Because I am a minority group I can justifiably ridicule anyone outside that minority group."
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Every time someone says, "You don't deserve ____ because you're not a minority" they immediately stop being inclusive. Ironic I don't see the "Tolerance Paradox" being used in respect to Pride.
 

Yvvki

Sassy lesser panda.
Any large event where people act stupid I tend to avoid. But as I said already, there's no need to single out Pride events for special criticism. It helps bring awareness, make it more visible for people to see, and as someone just mentioned, also act as fundraising.



Straight pride is a bit redundant. It would be like celebrating white pride. Kind of insulting really, when it's still the default norm.

There really is no default norm where I live so maybe it's different. ( Canada is multicultural. )

Also I do believe that white people should celebrate themselves, just as much as any other kind of people.

It's not right to exclude someone from self love, period.
Also... I bet you can't tell the difference between Italian, Czech, British, German, French, Russian, Irish, Ukrainian, Greek, or Polish people.
Not all white people are "American"
 
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ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
There really is no default norm where I live so maybe it's different. ( wtf is a default norm? Canada is multicultural. )

Also I do believe that white people should celebrate themselves, just as much as any other kind of people.

It's not right to exclude someone from self love, period.
Also... I bet you can't tell the difference between Italian, Czech, British, German, French, Russian, Irish, Ukrainian, Greek, or Polish people. Just incase you are hinting at the "Oh you can't tell black people apart so it's racist." Trope....
It's ironic because in order for the people who are "oppressed" to have an excuse to treat straights, whites, and males like garbage is to believe in a default norm.
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Also I don't think anyone should celebrate their race. In the past we tried to prove that Race was an insignificant feature that didn't tell anyone about that person, that race DOESN'T matter. We shouldn't regress back to that.
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Racial pride is silly, no matter what context. Thing about Gay Pride is that it's going in the opposite direction that's allowing people to hijack and gatekeep it. The whole Civil Right's Movement for blacks was an attempt to devalue race as a trait in people and focus on their individuality. That was their whole argument; race doesn't matter, their character does.
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Gay Pride shouldn't continue much longer. It should be replaced with what made the Civil Rights Movement of the past work; ignoring the traits of people by group, rather urging others to judge each other by their individual traits and aspects. If not, one of two things will happen; LGBT will die as a legitimate movement, or we will get into a culture war based on group identity.
 
Canada pulls the same bullshit with Natives that we do with ours, so I don't know how multicultural you can really call it. Canada is by and large more progressive than the United States socially for the most part, but it still has its skeletons. Everyone's shit stinks, just not equally bad.

It's one thing to be proud about your heritage, its another to be proud about a race. I can be proud about my US heritage, British heritage, Irish heritage, and I think there is some German in there too, but I forget. None of that is taken to any extreme to where I'm trying to justify British Imperialism or the Holocaust, because I can also admit to the bad shit and denounce it. Unless I am playing strategy games, in which case rampant nationalism is part of the fun.

Part of the underlying objective of the LGBT movement was to abolish the idea of straight/cis being some kind of default norm as far as people view themselves and each other. The major goal of civil rights movements is to seek an end to unequal treatment by the law and society, and in that regard the LGBT rights movement still has a ways to go, but I'm worried it is fracturing into its own separate movements for specific issues.

I think the "culture war" element is a ridiculous statement, but the idea of Identity politics being used to verbally bludgeon political opponents is a very real problem, and a massive pain in my ass. There are some white gay dudes that are fucking racist, and if you call them on it they try to hide behind their identity like its some kind of oppression olympics. There are some Lesbians that say some absolutely trans-phobic shit, and if you call them on it will scream about how you are a man/not a real woman and therefore everything you say is utterly invalid. IdPol is where intersectionality and social progress go to die.
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
This is why I don't take Pride very seriously; it forces those within it to gatekeep, because they want to be "inclusive" but also be for specific people. You can't have both. If they attempt to do the former they will simply continue growing the LGBT larger and larger until it becomes a parody of itself and reduces to the very individual themselves. If they attempt to go with the latter, then gatekeeping is necessary and thus you begin taking the Pride too far.
Um... no? There is absolutely no need to gatekeep. You can be inclusive while focusing on marginalized sexual/gender identities. The easiest way to do this is just to assume that people who want to be part of Pride want to be part of it for a reason. You can accept individuals' self-identification as QUILTBAG/queer, and allow the queer community to function as a support network for people whose sexuality or gender identity don't fit the norm, or who simply aren't sure whether it does. There is absolutely no reason to assume it'll balloon out of control for accepting self-identification. Non-queer people generally don't have an interest in identifying as queer, so it's self-limiting without gatekeeping and exclusionism entering the picture.

Gay Pride shouldn't continue much longer. It should be replaced with what made the Civil Rights Movement of the past work; ignoring the traits of people by group, rather urging others to judge each other by their individual traits and aspects. If not, one of two things will happen; LGBT will die as a legitimate movement, or we will get into a culture war based on group identity.
That's a false equivalence, though. There is no "coming out" as black. While I'm sure there are people who struggle in some ways with their racial identity, on the whole accepting your racial heritage doesn't involve bucking a default expectation. Many people, probably most, who end up identifying as QUILTBAG, at some point went through a period of self-discovery and/or confusion that is markedly different in character from what cishet teens go through when they start experiencing sexual attraction.
 

Yvvki

Sassy lesser panda.
Canada pulls the same bullshit with Natives that we do with ours, so I don't know how multicultural you can really call it. Canada is by and large more progressive than the United States socially for the most part, but it still has its skeletons. Everyone's shit stinks, just not equally bad.

It's one thing to be proud about your heritage, its another to be proud about a race. I can be proud about my US heritage, British heritage, Irish heritage, and I think there is some German in there too, but I forget. None of that is taken to any extreme to where I'm trying to justify British Imperialism or the Holocaust, because I can also admit to the bad shit and denounce it. Unless I am playing strategy games, in which case rampant nationalism is part of the fun.

Part of the underlying objective of the LGBT movement was to abolish the idea of straight/cis being some kind of default norm as far as people view themselves and each other. The major goal of civil rights movements is to seek an end to unequal treatment by the law and society, and in that regard the LGBT rights movement still has a ways to go, but I'm worried it is fracturing into its own separate movements for specific issues.

I think the "culture war" element is a ridiculous statement, but the idea of Identity politics being used to verbally bludgeon political opponents is a very real problem, and a massive pain in my ass. There are some white gay dudes that are fucking racist, and if you call them on it they try to hide behind their identity like its some kind of oppression olympics. There are some Lesbians that say some absolutely trans-phobic shit, and if you call them on it will scream about how you are a man/not a real woman and therefore everything you say is utterly invalid. IdPol is where intersectionality and social progress go to die.
I was brought up with the idea that everyone is equal, and to judge people as individuals by their personalities. Nothing else.
That's just how I was raised... I just wish more people had the ability to just get along with other people, no matter what color/race/sexual orientation they are.
Where I live, there is a mix of all kinds of people. When I go to the store, other light colored people are actually few and far between. I don't get bothered by this though. I have lived around all kinds of people, we all treated each other like family.... It's really sad to see how people struggle with this concept.
 

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
Um... no? There is absolutely no need to gatekeep. You can be inclusive while focusing on marginalized sexual/gender identities. The easiest way to do this is just to assume that people who want to be part of Pride want to be part of it for a reason. You can accept individuals' self-identification as QUILTBAG/queer, and allow the queer community to function as a support network for people whose sexuality or gender identity don't fit the norm, or who simply aren't sure whether it does. There is absolutely no reason to assume it'll balloon out of control for accepting self-identification. Non-queer people generally don't have an interest in identifying as queer, so it's self-limiting without gatekeeping and exclusionism entering the picture.
You didn't pay attention to the thing you quoted.
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"Queer" was invented in order to address the problem of identities spiraling out of control and LGBT becoming a self-parody of endless identities. Yet the term itself is so vague that it contains the same problem with it; what is a "Queer" except an end-all term for those who "do not fit with the norm"? It essentially proves my point; either it needs to be gatekept in order to continue to exist, or it becomes so inclusive that it essentially becomes meaningless.
That's a false equivalence, though. There is no "coming out" as black. While I'm sure there are people who struggle in some ways with their racial identity, on the whole accepting your racial heritage doesn't involve bucking a default expectation. Many people, probably most, who end up identifying as QUILTBAG, at some point went through a period of self-discovery and/or confusion that is markedly different in character from what cishet teens go through when they start experiencing sexual attraction.
No. It's not a False Equivalence because you ignore the fundamental point.
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The point being that the idea behind fighting for normality was to be normal, thus putting your physical and mental traits aside and focusing on the content of their character rather than the color of their skin, the conditions of their mind, the conditions of their body, etc. That was the whole point.
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But if LGBT isn't fighting for normality, what are they fighting for? LGBT is, as ironic as it sounds, having an identity crisis. Is it fighting for normality? Is it fighting for special treatment? Because, at least what it seems to me, if you're not fighting to be normal you're fighting to be recognized and treated differently but only if that treatment is positive.
 
The idea that we are all equal is a farce. The idea that we are all equals is equally fanciful. The idea that we should all be equals is a noble goal worth striving for. People are not born equal in ability, but there is nothing wrong with that, because we are still all deserving of being treated with equal respect as people assuming we don't do something astonishingly shitty to unearn that basic standard of respect. But the fact is, we don't all get the same opportunities, and some of that is the result of deliberate policy enacted by bigoted shitbags past and present.
"From where you're kneeling it must seem like an 18-carat run of bad luck.
Truth is...the game was rigged from the start." -Benny, Fallout New Vegas.
 

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
The idea that we are all equal is a farce. The idea that we are all equals is equally fanciful. The idea that we should all be equals is a noble goal worth striving for. People are not born equal in ability, but there is nothing wrong with that, because we are still all deserving of being treated with equal respect as people assuming we don't do something astonishingly shitty to unearn that basic standard of respect. But the fact is, we don't all get the same opportunities, and some of that is the result of deliberate policy enacted by bigoted shitbags past and present.
"From where you're kneeling it must seem like an 18-carat run of bad luck.
Truth is...the game was rigged from the start." -Benny, Fallout New Vegas.
This is basically restating, "Content of their character" that I've been speaking about this entire time.
 

Yvvki

Sassy lesser panda.
The idea that we are all equal is a farce. The idea that we are all equals is equally fanciful. The idea that we should all be equals is a noble goal worth striving for. People are not born equal in ability, but there is nothing wrong with that, because we are still all deserving of being treated with equal respect as people assuming we don't do something astonishingly shitty to unearn that basic standard of respect. But the fact is, we don't all get the same opportunities, and some of that is the result of deliberate policy enacted by bigoted shitbags past and present.
"From where you're kneeling it must seem like an 18-carat run of bad luck.
Truth is...the game was rigged from the start." -Benny, Fallout New Vegas.
To be fair. Where I live, you automatically get treated better/have more opportunities if you are different. Mainly because we strive for diversity where I am.
 

Yvvki

Sassy lesser panda.
Keep going down that road and it becomes reverse bigotry. Because who defines "normal"?
Yea my bf is getting that... He was told during an interview for a job to work with kids, that they won't even see his resume because he's an older straight white man.

I was upset about that one...

And he's been working with kids for years and years with a clean record pier to this job.

Anyhow back on track... Why does it irritate people so much when people want to celebrate themselves?
Let people have some self love.
 
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Yakamaru

Bara mig och lite bensin
Pride month... We don't need pride month.

Keep going down that road and it becomes reverse bigotry. Because who defines "normal"?
It's not reverse bigotry. It's just bigotry.
 
Keep going down that road and it becomes reverse bigotry. Because who defines "normal"?
You do usually need some form of reparations for the results of historical discrimination, but those should be actual things that reverse the damages done. IE unfucking the disaster that was red-lining and improving the availability of education to black people instead of giving them access to scholarships that most of them will never have the educational opportunities to qualify for in the first place.

Yea my bf is getting that... He was told during an interview for a job to work with kids, that they won't even see his resume because he's an older straight white man.

I was upset about that one...

And he's been working with kids for years and years with a clean record pier to this job.

A lot of people use "I'm being discriminated against because I'm white!" as a defense for their own shortcomings, but that sounds like a workplace had sketchy hiring practices and is desperately trying to hire their token black before the government gets curious. Which is testament to quotas not actually curbing racist hiring practices, just forcing racist businesses to hire tokens when they come to the end of the roster.
 

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
You do usually need some form of reparations for the results of historical discrimination, but those should be actual things that reverse the damages done. IE unfucking the disaster that was red-lining and improving the availability of education to black people instead of giving them access to scholarships that most of them will never have the educational opportunities to qualify for in the first place.



A lot of people use "I'm being discriminated against because I'm white!" as a defense for their own shortcomings, but that sounds like a workplace had sketchy hiring practices and is desperately trying to hire their token black before the government gets curious.
You're wrong here. You do these things out of the desire to improve people's lives, not out "reparations".
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The idea that it's "reparations" makes it seem like I have to pay for something I never did, but simply because I have similar traits toward someone who did. So what happens when it somehow gets reversed; where minorities become the majority and what was once the majority is discriminated against? Do we not get reparations because we were historically privileged?
 

Yvvki

Sassy lesser panda.
You do usually need some form of reparations for the results of historical discrimination, but those should be actual things that reverse the damages done. IE unfucking the disaster that was red-lining and improving the availability of education to black people instead of giving them access to scholarships that most of them will never have the educational opportunities to qualify for in the first place.



A lot of people use "I'm being discriminated against because I'm white!" as a defense for their own shortcomings, but that sounds like a workplace had sketchy hiring practices and is desperately trying to hire their token black before the government gets curious. Which is testament to quotas not actually curbing racist hiring practices, just forcing racist businesses to hire tokens when they come to the end of the roster.
The interview took place in a coffee shop and I was there in line getting a drink when it happened. ( Our roommate drove us and we were going to get groceries afterwards. )

They said that word for word. It was not him being over dramatic... in fact he did not say anything about it except the fact that it went against the Basic Human Rights act...
 

Yakamaru

Bara mig och lite bensin
A lot of people use "I'm being discriminated against because I'm gay!" as a defense for their own shortcomings, but that sounds like a workplace had sketchy hiring practices and is desperately trying to hire their token gay before the government gets curious. Which is testament to quotas not actually curbing racist hiring practices, just forcing racist businesses to hire tokens when they come to the end of the roster.

See what I did there?

You do usually need some form of reparations for the results of historical discrimination, but those should be actual things that reverse the damages done. IE unfucking the disaster that was red-lining and improving the availability of education to black people instead of giving them access to scholarships that most of them will never have the educational opportunities to qualify for in the first place.
You don't hold people alive today accountable for the actions of their ancestors. That is utterly moronic and gets the ridicule that is well-deserved.

Want me to hold you accountable for the actions of your ancestors? Doesn't sound so fun when you change the target now, does it?

You can't change the past by forcing "reparations" on people living today. That only makes shit worse and you look as if you're entitled to shit that didn't even happen to you.
 
You're wrong here. You do these things out of the desire to improve people's lives, not out "reparations".
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The idea that it's "reparations" makes it seem like I have to pay for something I never did, but simply because I have similar traits toward someone who did. So what happens when it somehow gets reversed; where minorities become the majority and what was once the majority is discriminated against? Do we not get reparations because we were historically privileged?
A government or collective society owes reparations for collective wrongs done against groups of people. Otherwise you leave people who have suffered those wrongs at an inherent disadvantage in society. You can see this in the United States, where black communities where disadvantaged by policies of red-lining after putting up with centuries of prior bullshit and Jim Crow. The tangible results of this are that black families where for the most part forced to purchase homes in worse neighborhoods with little access to home loans. Over the course of decades this resulted in the depreciation of the value of these homes, a lack of development in these neighborhoods, and a segregation of schools. Let that cook for a few decades and throw in de-industrialization and you've created a recipe for black poverty and education access problems. Our state allowed such practices to be carried out, even after they became officially illegal, so it is the responsibility of our government to unfuck that mistake, preferably holding those individually accountable financially responsible. I do hold myself collectively accountable through the collectively represented body of government for wrongs that I could be held thusly accountable for. I actively seek remediation for wrongs committed against others by my government and those committed through its unwillingness to act to prevent discriminatory practices. I do community work to help those impacted by those wrongs. I'm not ashamed because I am not personally responsible for those actions, but I understand that there is a communal responsibility to put right wrongs committed by a community.

Ashes aren't diverse.
It depends, as some members of the alt right have a very diverse list of oven-worthy groups and individuals. Does that make them worse or better than Nazis? Or at least that is what I should ask tumblr on an alt account from behind a blast proof screen.
 
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