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My General Take on Pride Month

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
A government or collective society owes reparations for collective wrongs done against groups of people. Otherwise you leave people who have suffered those wrongs at an inherent disadvantage in society. You can see this in the United States, where black communities where disadvantaged by policies of red-lining after putting up with centuries of prior bullshit and Jim Crow. The tangible results of this are that black families where for the most part forced to purchase homes in worse neighborhoods with little access to home loans. Over the course of decades this resulted in the depreciation of the value of these homes, a lack of development in these neighborhoods, and a segregation of schools. Let that cook for a few decades and throw in de-industrialization and you've created a recipe for black poverty and education access problems. Our state allowed such practices to be carried out, even after they became officially illegal, so it is the responsibility of our government to unfuck that mistake, preferably holding those individually accountable financially responsible. I do hold myself collectively accountable through the collectively represented body of government for wrongs that I could be held thusly accountable for. I actively seek remediation for wrongs committed against others by my government and those committed through its unwillingness to act to prevent discriminatory practices. I do community work to help those impacted by those wrongs. I'm not ashamed because I am not personally responsible for those actions, but I understand that there is a communal responsibility to put right wrongs committed by a community.
That's a government unfucking mistakes on behalf of its people, not reparations for wrongs against a particular group of people (because believe it or not, specific groups of people weren't all affected by these changes).
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Like every good lie told, this quote holds a semblance of truth, which I highlighted; there is a moral responsibility of people to take care of each other.
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But your excessive collectivist thinking is like cancer; it continues to envelop everything. First of all, you say "my government" as though the government only represents you instead the citizens of its country. Thus if that's true then what moral argument do you have for people who are not under the authority of the government?
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Secondly, it creates the illusion of groups fighting for control; instead of going past that primitive idea, you've embraced it without considering that perhaps that's a regressive way of thinking. You should do these things to help other humans, not because it's a payment for past crimes. It shouldn't matter which group did what because people aren't their group.
 

Yvvki

Sassy lesser panda.
A government or collective society owes reparations for collective wrongs done against groups of people. Otherwise you leave people who have suffered those wrongs at an inherent disadvantage in society. You can see this in the United States, where black communities where disadvantaged by policies of red-lining after putting up with centuries of prior bullshit and Jim Crow. The tangible results of this are that black families where for the most part forced to purchase homes in worse neighborhoods with little access to home loans. Over the course of decades this resulted in the depreciation of the value of these homes, a lack of development in these neighborhoods, and a segregation of schools. Let that cook for a few decades and throw in de-industrialization and you've created a recipe for black poverty and education access problems. Our state allowed such practices to be carried out, even after they became officially illegal, so it is the responsibility of our government to unfuck that mistake, preferably holding those individually accountable financially responsible. I do hold myself collectively accountable through the collectively represented body of government for wrongs that I could be held thusly accountable for. I actively seek remediation for wrongs committed against others by my government and those committed through its unwillingness to act to prevent discriminatory practices. I do community work to help those impacted by those wrongs. I'm not ashamed because I am not personally responsible for those actions, but I understand that there is a communal responsibility to put right wrongs committed by a community.


It depends, as some members of the alt right have a very diverse list of oven-worthy groups and individuals. Does that make them worse or better than Nazis? Or at least that is what I should ask tumblr on an alt account from behind a blast proof screen.

We tried doing that in Canada with Natives. Instead of getting a head start from the free education/college. Most of them continue to abuse the system and milk it for everything they can get while doing nothing to better themselves by just getting drunk and pretty much treating their Childern like crap and then the cycle continues.

Why are you comparing things to Nazis? Do you realise just how ridiculous that looks?
 
We tried doing that in Canada with Natives. Instead of getting a head start from the free education/college. Most of them continue to abuse the system and milk it for everything they can get while doing nothing to better themselves by just getting drunk and pretty much treating their Childern like crap and then the cycle continues.

Why are you comparing things to Nazis? Do you realise just how ridiculous that looks?
A. That "free education" is an underfunded mess. What you have said is a gross generalization that goes into the territory of you yourself being a bigot.
www.jobpostings.ca: The Problem with Aboriginal Education in Canada and what you can do about it
B. The alt right thing was a joke.

That's a government unfucking mistakes on behalf of its people, not reparations for wrongs against a particular group of people (because believe it or not, specific groups of people weren't all affected by these changes).
-
Like every good lie told, this quote holds a semblance of truth, which I highlighted; there is a moral responsibility of people to take care of each other.
-
But your excessive collectivist thinking is like cancer; it continues to envelop everything. First of all, you say "my government" as though the government only represents you instead the citizens of its country. Thus if that's true then what moral argument do you have for people who are not under the authority of the government?
-
Secondly, it creates the illusion of groups fighting for control; instead of going past that primitive idea, you've embraced it without considering that perhaps that's a regressive way of thinking. You should do these things to help other humans, not because it's a payment for past crimes. It shouldn't matter which group did what because people aren't their group.

A government represents all individuals within a country collectively. Our government failed to prevent and at times encouraged and aided discriminatory practices that were levied against specific ethnic groups, so we inherit that responsibility as US citizens. If we want to start holding individuals and specific companies responsible in addition to the government for specific wrongs we will be here for a while, because that is going to be one hell of a case load. Furthermore, many of those directly responsible through their policy decisions and actions are now dead, leaving those harmed by their actions to fend for themselves. The wealth that could be penalized to make individual reparations has long since been scattered to the winds in many cases, though in others some still cling to their hoard.

I'm trying to phrase things outside of my communist moral framework and within the context of a capitalist society. My moral argument would be that we should abolish capital altogether and work to establish availability of education and resources for all as they need it, and everyone needs a good education. Resources should be dedicated where they are needed most and currently lacking by no other metric than demand and availability. We should alleviate the results of all oppression and seek an end to oppression where it still rears its ugly head, undertaking that struggle together as one class of humanity united.
 

WithMyBearHands

Smudge and arrogant
This is why I don't take Pride very seriously; it forces those within it to gatekeep, because they want to be "inclusive" but also be for specific people. You can't have both. If they attempt to do the former they will simply continue growing the LGBT larger and larger until it becomes a parody of itself and reduces to the very individual themselves. If they attempt to go with the latter, then gatekeeping is necessary and thus you begin taking the Pride too far.
This, it’s the same shit Susan B Anthony and her ilk did during the suffragist movement. Thanks to them, it took another 50 years for black women to be able to vote. All this is doing is drawing lines of separation between minorities. Like I’ve said, we can’t act like we’re better than everyone else just because we’re queer.

Also gonna throw this in there, I’m not singling out Pride for stupid ass shenanigans. College kids get drunk and act like a bunch of hormone ridden Neanderthals because their team won. LGBT people do it because of the big ghey. I wish at the very least people would stop using it as justification for public intoxication and property damage.
 
I'm going to duck out of this one and think about my own arguments and what has been argued against them and reconcile my own ish. I probably shouldn't be trying to have a political discussion 6+ hours past when I probably should have gone to bed tbh.
 

Oblique Lynx

The nationalist conservative lynx
Banned
LGBT community an aura of "in your face"
Ya know, this is pretty well why I massively dislike pride month. It seems like everywhere is just plastered with the stuff during the month. Bigger reason than the marches that I always found so gaudy and obnoxious
 

WithMyBearHands

Smudge and arrogant
OH! Last point, I do think it is somewhat shitty that a lot of companies try to use pride month as a PR stunt, especially if they have issues with discrimination themselves.
Yup. All of my this. They weren’t around when we needed them most. It’s almost never done out of genuine support and only seems to stir shit with the right wing conservatives. If the companies really cared, their actions would reflect it, not just slapping a rainbow on their logo for a month.
 

WithMyBearHands

Smudge and arrogant
Take February for example. Black History Month centers around just that, black history. And I think that’s awesome. Especially for a minority group that had most of their history erased by white aristocrats and politicians, it’s important to remember the reason for the season. That’s what I wish would happen during Pride month. I wish we could just focus on points like Harvey Milk, Matthew Shepherd, and the Stonewall marches. They deserve better than to have their memories blurred by alcohol fueled rainbow romps throughout cities.
 

Oblique Lynx

The nationalist conservative lynx
Banned
Take February for example. Black History Month centers around just that, black history. And I think that’s awesome. Especially for a minority group that had most of their history erased by white aristocrats and politicians, it’s important to remember the reason for the season. That’s what I wish would happen during Pride month. I wish we could just focus on points like Harvey Milk, Matthew Shepherd, and the Stonewall marches. They deserve better than to have their memories blurred by alcohol fueled rainbow romps throughout cities.
Now this is something I can wholely agree with. Black History month, Mi'kmaq Heritage month; important history but it's not overtly plastered everywhere
Canada pulls the same bullshit with Natives that we do with ours
I can't say I've noticed much about being treated differently or worse. If anything, we're given a lot of stuff and acknowledgement. The only real mistreatment is from some of the reserves out west.
 
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Z

ZeroVoidTime

Guest
OH! Last point, I do think it is somewhat shitty that a lot of companies try to use pride month as a PR stunt, especially if they have issues with discrimination themselves.
That and they want to make money regardless of the actual morals behind it. Besides making as money of course. XD
 

Felix Bernard

Chemist, Conservative, Mark Levin fan
I want to go to a pride festival. Not to partake in it, but to listen to the preachers. Not the aggressive and hell-bent ones, but the actual good ones that are out there.

I’ve done a lot of participation with a strictly non-violent anti-abortion group, so I’ve seen a lot of good and a lot of bad.
 
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quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
You didn't pay attention to the thing you quoted.
So because I don't feel your reasoning is sound, I didn't read it carefully enough? Please. I read it, you're making assumptions that don't hold, without those assumptions your logic falls apart.

"Queer" was invented in order to address the problem of identities spiraling out of control and LGBT becoming a self-parody of endless identities. Yet the term itself is so vague that it contains the same problem with it; what is a "Queer" except an end-all term for those who "do not fit with the norm"? It essentially proves my point; either it needs to be gatekept in order to continue to exist, or it becomes so inclusive that it essentially becomes meaningless.
So this is the week of cishet men rewriting queer history, is it? :V Pray tell when you think "queer" was invented, then. It'll be interesting to hear.

The thing about this "endless identities" thing you seem to think is a problem, is that the vast majority of them are just labels on things that queer folks have been experiencing for a long time. They allow people to better describe their experiences, patterns of attraction, or what have you. There is a clear pattern for the types of identities that fall under the queer umbrella, and that some of the identities that get included might be more borderline than others doesn't invalidate them. If you permit people self-identification, and accept that self-identification, there is no need for gatekeeping because people whose identities don't fall under the queer umbrella don't have any interest in identifying as queer. Pride/queer gatekeeping typically will strike first at straight-passing individuals, regardless of sexuality, which ends up hitting bi, ace, and nonbinary individuals (as well as people still in the closet) disproportionately hard.

(If you will, you can compare the "endless identities" to the way academia buds off into more precise sub-fields - quantum physics is still ultimately physics, is still ultimately part of the natural sciences. By introducing quantum physics as a field, you didn't dilute natural sciences or make them meaninglessly inclusive - you just coined a more precise description/label for a subset of the physics being studied.)

But if LGBT isn't fighting for normality, what are they fighting for? LGBT is, as ironic as it sounds, having an identity crisis. Is it fighting for normality? Is it fighting for special treatment? Because, at least what it seems to me, if you're not fighting to be normal you're fighting to be recognized and treated differently but only if that treatment is positive.
Not all aspects of QUILTBAG culture/community is about fighting. Absolutely, to receive equal treatment is an important goal. But you'll also have aspects that are about mutual support. About sharing experiences and helping others get through something you already came out the other side of. Having queer identities be accepted in society may reduce the need for this support somewhat, but it doesn't eliminate it.
 

Yvvki

Sassy lesser panda.
A. That "free education" is an underfunded mess. What you have said is a gross generalization that goes into the territory of you yourself being a bigot.
www.jobpostings.ca: The Problem with Aboriginal Education in Canada and what you can do about it
B. The alt right thing was a joke.



A government represents all individuals within a country collectively. Our government failed to prevent and at times encouraged and aided discriminatory practices that were levied against specific ethnic groups, so we inherit that responsibility as US citizens. If we want to start holding individuals and specific companies responsible in addition to the government for specific wrongs we will be here for a while, because that is going to be one hell of a case load. Furthermore, many of those directly responsible through their policy decisions and actions are now dead, leaving those harmed by their actions to fend for themselves. The wealth that could be penalized to make individual reparations has long since been scattered to the winds in many cases, though in others some still cling to their hoard.

I'm trying to phrase things outside of my communist moral framework and within the context of a capitalist society. My moral argument would be that we should abolish capital altogether and work to establish availability of education and resources for all as they need it, and everyone needs a good education. Resources should be dedicated where they are needed most and currently lacking by no other metric than demand and availability. We should alleviate the results of all oppression and seek an end to oppression where it still rears its ugly head, undertaking that struggle together as one class of humanity united.
No, I'm pretty sure you're the one being a bigot in this situation.
I'm not saying anything out of intolerance. You need to come over here and be around it to understand I guess...
www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca: Indigenous peoples

Your news articles holds little weight, please do some research before telling someone about their own country.
 
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Summer

Member
Another thought along these same lines. Can a person be proud of an attribute that is not an accomplishment or a person does not have control over?. If a person doesn't have control over sexual orientation or race, how can a person be proud over these attributes?.
 

Saiko

GTWT Survivor
Another thought along these same lines. Can a person be proud of an attribute that is not an accomplishment or a person does not have control over?. If a person doesn't have control over sexual orientation or race, how can a person be proud over these attributes?.
We’ve answered this multiple times in multiple threads. The term “gay pride” is a rejection of shame and silence. It’s not pride in the sense of being proud of an accomplishment.
 

Troj

Your Friendly Neighborhood Dino Therapist
The thing about this "endless identities" thing you seem to think is a problem, is that the vast majority of them are just labels on things that queer folks have been experiencing for a long time. They allow people to better describe their experiences, patterns of attraction, or what have you. There is a clear pattern for the types of identities that fall under the queer umbrella, and that some of the identities that get included might be more borderline than others doesn't invalidate them. If you permit people self-identification, and accept that self-identification, there is no need for gatekeeping because people whose identities don't fall under the queer umbrella don't have any interest in identifying as queer. Pride/queer gatekeeping typically will strike first at straight-passing individuals, regardless of sexuality, which ends up hitting bi, ace, and nonbinary individuals (as well as people still in the closet) disproportionately hard.

(If you will, you can compare the "endless identities" to the way academia buds off into more precise sub-fields - quantum physics is still ultimately physics, is still ultimately part of the natural sciences. By introducing quantum physics as a field, you didn't dilute natural sciences or make them meaninglessly inclusive - you just coined a more precise description/label for a subset of the physics being studied.)

Well, and there are a few labels and identities that I personally find puzzling, pointless, or extraneous. Do I go around haranguing people who subscribe to those labels? Not unless they harangue me first!

If a term truly isn't useful or helpful, then my assumption is that it'll eventually fall out of popular usage, so the "problem" will solve itself.

In the meantime, the easiest and best approach is to just live and let live, in my estimation. Even if somebody's being a silly grandstanding snowflake from your point of view, unless they're actively harassing or bothering you or others, it's often best to just let 'em get it out of their system.


Not all aspects of QUILTBAG culture/community is about fighting. Absolutely, to receive equal treatment is an important goal. But you'll also have aspects that are about mutual support. About sharing experiences and helping others get through something you already came out the other side of. Having queer identities be accepted in society may reduce the need for this support somewhat, but it doesn't eliminate it.

As the saying goes, "normal" is a setting on an air conditioner!

At the end of the day, most LGBTQ people want to enjoy the same rights, opportunities, and basic respect as everyone else without having to conceal, compromise or apologize for things that don't warrant an apology to begin with.

Sometimes people argue amongst themselves or fight over petty shit, but that's human nature.

Yup. All of my this. They weren’t around when we needed them most. It’s almost never done out of genuine support and only seems to stir shit with the right wing conservatives. If the companies really cared, their actions would reflect it, not just slapping a rainbow on their logo for a month.

Reminds me of that Republican politician who flirted with the fandom for the day and picked a fursona. Don't buy the superficial hype!

609.jpg
 
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Simo

Professional Watermelon Farmer
Geez, what a lot of angry, negative threads, these days. As if all the bitching about how bad 'pride month" is on the other thread wasn't enough, now even more animosity.

And if straight folks wanna have a parade, have one: do the work, get the permits, and do it; it's a free country; I'm so sick of this, "Well, straight people don't get a special day BS". If anyone is so hurt that they don't, make one, don't just bitch about it, on some furry site.
 
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B

BahgDaddy

Guest
There really is no default norm where I live so maybe it's different. ( Canada is multicultural. )

Also I do believe that white people should celebrate themselves, just as much as any other kind of people.

It's not right to exclude someone from self love, period.
Also... I bet you can't tell the difference between Italian, Czech, British, German, French, Russian, Irish, Ukrainian, Greek, or Polish people.
Not all white people are "American"

I think people should be proud of who they are. Being proud of being Italian is a lot more accurate than white pride though. If you organized a white pride event, you'd mostly have skinheads and white supremacists show up.
 

Yvvki

Sassy lesser panda.
I think people should be proud of who they are. Being proud of being Italian is a lot more accurate than white pride though. If you organized a white pride event, you'd mostly have skinheads and white supremacists show up.
There's bad people in every group. Being in this fandom should have taught you at least that much.
 
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