NC, USA: Man Fires Shotgun Into Neighbor's Yard Sign Against Ammendment One

[Term_the_Schmuck]

This battle between Glitch and Term is getting more hot than Brad Pitt in Fight Club Troy...

Two words.

Brad Ass.

 

[Bipolar Bear]

Two words.

Brad Ass.

(0)____(0)

Oh dear god, YES!

 

[BarlettaX]

Relevant.

 

[Glitch]

Yes, your explanation is terrible if you honestly expect someone to take you seriously.

The whole "I want my rights, but I'll probably never even use them if I get them" schtick is piss poor. Like getting up in front of a bunch of people to give a presentation and saying "I know this is going to suck, but please bear with me." You've already lost me because you feel the need to preface what you're saying that what you have to say probably doesn't matter to you in the long run.

So basically all you've told me is "I deserve equality to be in the same exact situation as I am now without my perceived equality" and "people are stupid." I can assure you one thing, the best way to get people to change their opinion is to call them stupid. :V

We all want to see things happen in our lifetimes. I want to see the Giants win 10 more Super Bowls. I want to see human beings on other planets. But neither of those are as concrete as "I want to make sure that if my significant other has something drastic happen for them that I can visit them in the hospital/we can share finances/etc."

If the basis of what you call "equality" is simply the term "marriage" then you're going to have a hard time convincing people that what you're talking about isn't a childish pursuit. Ad Hoc has a point, maybe you don't have the perspective on the kinds of things that marriage provides that are actual issues of equality and are just clinging to a word as opposed to the actual legal benefits that come with a legally recognized union. This is far more important than an arbitrary word.

It does matter to me. What is someone in high school going so say about marriage, honestly? I don't know my life and how it's gonna go, then again nobody does. I can't plan what I am going to think in a decade. Maybe it'll change, who knows? I don't, and you sure as hell don't.

If/when the time comes where I want to have the right to a real marriage, with all the legal fixings. Once again, this circles as to what the hell homosexuals have done to not deserve the same treatment as their heterosexual counterparts.

It is so frustrating being the good little faggot for high school (and general) society. I don't act out, I'm not flamboyant, I don't cram a fist into the face of every fuckwit that calls me diseased, I don't go screaming in the face of every damn politician that says that I don't deserve equal rights because of some damn book that isn't part of my (lack of a) belief system. Unlike the straight kids at my previous school, my ex girlfriend and I didn't stuff tongues in each other's faces in public. We held hands and gave each other goodbyes with pecks. I let the homophobes have their damn beliefs, in spite of how God-awful wrong they are sometimes.

I know life is different out of high school. It pisses me off when people automatically discredit me for being a teenager. Yeah, sure, I might not always know EVERYTHING about ANYTHING, and I have never claimed to. I'm still young and have a lot to learn; no need to be a colossal freaking prick about everything I happen to say.

What is so wrong with wanting full legal benefits of marriage? You still didn't answer that question in between your criticisms and implying that I am nothing but some arrogant child. And in all honesty I will say I do not care about the fundies and their opinions on the matter. I don't care that marriage will be "redefined" to allow LGBT folks to be free to choose if they want it or not.

 

[Rilvor]

Glitch, I can assure you that in a mere two to three years you probably won't want to see any proof of how you thought so many years ago. Most of us human beings are that way.

Listen, what Term is trying to tell you in so many words isn't that he thinks you shouldn't have rights for yourself or your partner that carry strong legal ramifications. All he is trying to do is get you to form your opinions in a respectable and well-thought out way. His posts are well-meaning.

 

[Glitch]

Glitch, I can assure you that in a mere two to three years you probably won't want to see any proof of how you thought so many years ago. Most of us human beings are that way.

Listen, what Term is trying to tell you in so many words isn't that he thinks you shouldn't have rights for yourself or your partner that carry strong legal ramifications. All he is trying to do is get you to form your opinions in a respectable and well-thought out way. His posts are well-meaning.

I'm ashamed of myself for being a Bible thumping twat in middle school. I know that one denies their past most times.

And really, fuck the ramifications. I try to be respectable in every life situation and it is tiring because you get the majority that still says "nope, fuck your rights because it'll take away ours.". Seriously, what rights am I trying to take from straights that want marriage? Their right to treat "their" institution like some club formed by little girls and boys with a sign saying "no fags allowed."

I'm allowed to fight with opinion. And I doubt my stance on my marriage/equality in general will change, unless people start trying to take away the actual livelihood of LGBT folks. I know that livelihood > freedom, but even so Missouri tried to keep school-age kids and teens from even talking about homosexuality, I'm sure much less "act" homosexual. Term still hasn't given me any reason that I remember about why others and I shouldn't get equality through marriage. All he has done is essentially call me an insolent brat and laugh.

I'd jump to say Term really has no clue what it is like to have the government and the people of the nation put his rights on the chopping block, and have to watch them get shot down. I doubt he knows any of that. Not saying I know he doesn't, because he is just text on a forum to me. That goes both ways, I'm sure.

TL;DR I really don't care how "well-meaning" his posts are. My opinions are just opinions, but at least I am fighting for the progression of mankind. Unlike him, who probably just wants to keep gays from marriage because he doesn't like the idea of changing the (pretty shitty) definition of marriage or letting them in on his benefits if he is/is planning on getting married.

Boy, I am so fucking selfish for wanting equal benefits.

 

[Ad Hoc]

I'm not sure Term is actually against gay marriage, Glitch. I don't recall him ever saying it concretely, and he seemed pretty agreeable in his exchange with me. He seems to be going after how you're phrasing your opinion rather than what your opinion actually is. I don't know for sure though.

 

[Glitch]

I'm not sure Term is actually against gay marriage, Glitch. I don't recall him ever saying it concretely, and he seemed pretty agreeable in his exchange with me. He seems to be going after how you're phrasing your opinion rather than what your opinion actually is. I don't know for sure though.

Then he can lay off. My posts are not made for his enjoyment. Not all opinions are presented in the same way.
My phrasing is scatterbrained because I am one angry person. Not because of Term, but because there is a lot of outside shit going on. Not that I expect people of these forums to care. I'm clarifying because otherwise people will say "lol U MAD BRO" like some tween that just discovered the Internet. Yes, I am mad. It's a normal human emotion when a line is crossed.

Plenty of lines have been crossed in my life lately. I don't need more coming from someone whose ass has been glued to their high horse.

 

[Term_the_Schmuck]

Listen, what Term is trying to tell you in so many words isn't that he thinks you shouldn't have rights for yourself or your partner that carry strong legal ramifications. All he is trying to do is get you to form your opinions in a respectable and well-thought out way. His posts are well-meaning.

I'm not sure Term is actually against gay marriage, Glitch. I don't recall him ever saying it concretely, and he seemed pretty agreeable in his exchange with me. He seems to be going after how you're phrasing your opinion rather than what your opinion actually is. I don't know for sure though.

These two posts pretty much hit the nail on the head here. I've never argued against gay marriage in this thread. I have argued against your points for why you think you deserve gay marriage.

No line has been crossed and frankly, if you can't separate what's going on in your personal life with a simple conversation on how you're going about "fighting" for you rights, then maybe you should lay off the fighting and leave it to someone who's more reasonable.

You must realize at this point that your personal stories and attempt to make yourself seem justified by appealing to our emotional empathy are very cheap tactics when you're talking about trying to change people's opinions. And when you decide to insult said people for not buying what you're selling, that further disenfranchises them.

I personally hold no opinion why they shouldn't have those legal rights that a heterosexual couple enjoys. But assuming I'm someone with strong moral issues with the concept of gay marriage, your personal stories about how you've held back from fighting people or wanting to marry the person you love don't exactly help prove your point why gay marriage is an important issue because 1) you're acting like you're threatening people when you talk about "holding back" and 2) "I just want to get married to someone I love" isn't very strong given how disenfranchised most heterosexual couples have become with marriage or said "moral reasons" why gay marriage would be wrong.

You're acting very self-righteous when you start making the claim "I'm fighting for the progression of mankind." You're pretty full of yourself when you make broad claims like that. I'd argue you really don't know what it's like for the government to quash your personal rights either, given the fact that you hold such a low opinion of yourself that you have to preface your gay marriage speech with "I probably won't get married." The government isn't keeping you from doing anything currently, nor have you apparently even entertained the notion that it may or will happen.

It's a bit ironic you try to insult me for being on a high horse when in your previous post you say the following:

I really don't care how "well-meaning" his posts are. My opinions are just opinions, but at least I am fighting for the progression of mankind. Unlike him, who probably just wants to keep gays from marriage because he doesn't like the idea of changing the (pretty shitty) definition of marriage or letting them in on his benefits if he is/is planning on getting married.

You make broad statements about how you're personally changing the world while completely misrepresenting my arguments. Anyone who's been on these forums longer than a day should recognize I have a long history of being neutral on the issue of gay marriage, leaning towards support. But I often voice my disappointment with how the gay community represents itself or argues for their side. You have done the same, by skirting the actual issues associated with why equality isn't achieved between heterosexual and homosexual couples to try and play on someone's empathy by posting diatribes about how you've held back from fighting people who are mean to you in high school, how you want to marry someone for love, and how much you hate your mom. None of which talks about "progressing mankind" but is more about your personal problems and somehow gay marriage would fix everything.

And then everyone who even hints at disagreeing with any part of your argument is on their own high horse who can't possibly fathom all the shit you've dealt with in your life. That you act the part of the martyr while dishing out subtle threats and insults doesn't inspire compassion or understanding of the issues surrounds why gay couples aren't equal. It only serves to push away anyone who might be on the fence about the issue to say "well fuck you too."

 

[Vukasin]

Looks like I showed up a little too late. I can't watch the videos...

 

[Glitch]

These two posts pretty much hit the nail on the head here. I've never argued against gay marriage in this thread. I have argued against your points for why you think you deserve gay marriage.

No line has been crossed and frankly, if you can't separate what's going on in your personal life with a simple conversation on how you're going about "fighting" for you rights, then maybe you should lay off the fighting and leave it to someone who's more reasonable.

You must realize at this point that your personal stories and attempt to make yourself seem justified by appealing to our emotional empathy are very cheap tactics when you're talking about trying to change people's opinions. And when you decide to insult said people for not buying what you're selling, that further disenfranchises them.

I personally hold no opinion why they shouldn't have those legal rights that a heterosexual couple enjoys. But assuming I'm someone with strong moral issues with the concept of gay marriage, your personal stories about how you've held back from fighting people or wanting to marry the person you love don't exactly help prove your point why gay marriage is an important issue because 1) you're acting like you're threatening people when you talk about "holding back" and 2) "I just want to get married to someone I love" isn't very strong given how disenfranchised most heterosexual couples have become with marriage or said "moral reasons" why gay marriage would be wrong.

You're acting very self-righteous when you start making the claim "I'm fighting for the progression of mankind." You're pretty full of yourself when you make broad claims like that. I'd argue you really don't know what it's like for the government to quash your personal rights either, given the fact that you hold such a low opinion of yourself that you have to preface your gay marriage speech with "I probably won't get married." The government isn't keeping you from doing anything currently, nor have you apparently even entertained the notion that it may or will happen.

It's a bit ironic you try to insult me for being on a high horse when in your previous post you say the following:



You make broad statements about how you're personally changing the world while completely misrepresenting my arguments. Anyone who's been on these forums longer than a day should recognize I have a long history of being neutral on the issue of gay marriage, leaning towards support. But I often voice my disappointment with how the gay community represents itself or argues for their side. You have done the same, by skirting the actual issues associated with why equality isn't achieved between heterosexual and homosexual couples to try and play on someone's empathy by posting diatribes about how you've held back from fighting people who are mean to you in high school, how you want to marry someone for love, and how much you hate your mom. None of which talks about "progressing mankind" but is more about your personal problems and somehow gay marriage would fix everything.

And then everyone who even hints at disagreeing with any part of your argument is on their own high horse who can't possibly fathom all the shit you've dealt with in your life. That you act the part of the martyr while dishing out subtle threats and insults doesn't inspire compassion or understanding of the issues surrounds why gay couples aren't equal. It only serves to push away anyone who might be on the fence about the issue to say "well fuck you too."

I never said you crossed a line.

"1) you're acting like you're threatening people when you talk about 'holding back'"

I'm not. That isn't at people who say gay marriage is wrong. That is at people who say I am diseased for who I love. You can't honestly think that is something appropriate to say to anyone who loves another consenting human being.


"2) "I just want to get married to someone I love" isn't very strong...."

There's still nothing wrong with that want. Yet some people tend to paint that to be "SO AWFUL", simply because they view it as unorthodox.

"...but is more about your personal problems and somehow gay marriage would fix everything."

I never once said that it was the fix of the entire problem. There will always be homophobia just like there will always be racism. Nothing can fix that unless you kill people like that on the spot, and that is in no way an applicable solution.

"And then everyone who even hints at disagreeing with any part of your argument is on their own high horse who can't possibly fathom all the shit you've dealt with in your life."

Nope once again. Now you are just sticking words in my mouth, which I do not appreciate in the slightest.

And again, no. People can pretend all they like that they know what I have gone through; I just know that they honestly don't care enough to know. It's irritating, but whatever. People all tolerate and react to things differently.


Most arguments I have heard on the news, coming from the common person, etc. against gay marriage haven't been too strong, either. Most of it is based on the Bible, which shouldn't even count as a legitimate source because not everyone follows the Christian way of life. Just because I don't have the best arguments for supporting my claims doesn't mean I am some person who deserves to be treated like shit.

 

[Term_the_Schmuck]

I'm not. That isn't at people who say gay marriage is wrong. That is at people who say I am diseased for who I love. You can't honestly think that is something appropriate to say to anyone who loves another consenting human being.

And the question still stands, why bring that up in a discussion about why you should have the right to get married? Because talking about how you've held back from hurting other people, and throwing in the word "yet" at the end of it comes off as a vague threat, as if to say "IF THINGS DON'T CHANGE SHIT'S GONNA GO DOWN." Yeah, it's shitty people say that to you. But because people are shitty to you doesn't mean that you should be allowed to marry another chick. Those two things don't go hand-in-hand.

There's still nothing wrong with that want. Yet some people tend to paint that to be "SO AWFUL", simply because they view it as unorthodox.

Because they have their own moral convictions as to why it is wrong or a slight against God. But you start painting tangible things that people can relate to like powers of attorney, tax benefits, and so on it becomes an issue about something physical as opposed to an abstract concept of love.

I never once said that it was the fix of the entire problem. There will always be homophobia just like there will always be racism. Nothing can fix that unless you kill people like that on the spot, and that is in no way an applicable solution.

Again, then why bring up your problems in your personal life in a discussion about gay marriage? Because so far your own reasons that you personally have presented for why you should get married amounts to "because I say so" and "it ain't easy being green." Then you flip the script and try to demand why other people think you shouldn't get married, as if to keep yourself from having to answer the question when you have ACTUAL AMMUNITION IN THE FORM OF REAL DISCREPANCIES BETWEEN WHAT GAY AND STRAIGHT COUPLES HAVE BENEFITS TO.

Nope once again. Now you are just sticking words in my mouth, which I do not appreciate in the slightest.

I'm sorry, did you not start off in this thread by claiming the dude in the OP had a small mind and/or penis? Did you not further state his opinions are stupid? Have you not repeatedly interjecting your own personal life into this thread and try and play off your alledged incredible patience for people? Did you not make the claim you were fighting the good fight of progressing mankind? Did you not also make the claim that I can't possibly have any concept over what it's like to be gay and have people pick on me because of something relating to my character? That's right, you have. I'm presenting you in the very fashion you presented yourself in this thread; a self-righteous martyr who views themselves crusading for the betterment of mankind while being condescending to just about anyone who might in some way disagree either with your stance or how you go about defending your stance. Prove me wrong.

And again, no. People can pretend all they like that they know what I have gone through; I just know that they honestly don't care enough to know. It's irritating, but whatever. People all tolerate and react to things differently.

And yet you must certainly realize this sounds like every other generic "NO ONE UNDERSTANDS ME" schtick most angst-ridden teenagers go through. And is completely irrelevant to why gay people should get married.

Just because I don't have the best arguments for supporting my claims doesn't mean I am some person who deserves to be treated like shit.

What it does mean is that you hurt the cause your fighting for by going off on tangents to make these much larger issues about you personally, by misrepresenting information as you've also done in this thread, and taking ad hominem shots at other people.

 

[Roose Hurro]

Roose, late to the party on this one, but what is with this civil union 'plus' v legal marriage hogwash?

Hmm, sounds so familiar.

Marriage, to those who don't care about it, or those who go through them like tissues in a circle-jerk cleanup, is not really that sacred. Really, look at the dramatic celebs. Do they give two shits about the sanctity of marriage? Nope. Neither do the people that marry hookers in Las Vegas. Let the people who want to have it, have it. If they are two consenting adults, then where is the issue?

Again, what have we done (as homosexuals/bisexuals/queers in general) to deserve marital segregation, if we are even lucky enough to do that all (get a civil union)? Are we too fabulous for marriage or something?

As far as marriage being a privilege goes, sure, when it is between lovers. But it shouldn't be up to the government and the voters to dictate what (adult, consenting once again) lovers can and cannot do. Throwing in the adult and consenting parts so you don't go off on ridiculous "slippery slope to bestiality and pedophilia" tangets.

It's not "hogwash", it's an alternative approach that doesn't end up with a footful of broken toes. And yes, it shouldn't be up to the government... that was one of my points. Marriage shouldn't require a "license" in order for a married couple to get all the bennies of marriage. And no, no reason for any "tangents".

So, if you want "equality" in your lifetime, I suggest changing your approach. Since, you know, the present one isn't working very well.

I agree, most people i know who are against gay marriage would be ok with it as long as it isn't called marriage.

Yes, it's what I keep hearing over and over again. Got that, Glitch?

If the basis of what you call "equality" is simply the term "marriage" then you're going to have a hard time convincing people that what you're talking about isn't a childish pursuit. Ad Hoc has a point, maybe you don't have the perspective on the kinds of things that marriage provides that are actual issues of equality and are just clinging to a word as opposed to the actual legal benefits that come with a legally recognized union. This is far more important than an arbitrary word.

Yes, this is indeed far more important. And what I've bolded is exactly my view on the whole issue. And it's not just a matter of perspective, but of perception, as well. Your perspective on the issue, and the perception of your cause to others.

No... the ability to get marred is a right. Finding someone to marry is a privilege. Be very careful here, because suggesting the institution itself is a privilege suggests the *good behavior* involves marrying someone of the opposite sex.

Spatel, you said "Privileges are social contracts that we earn through good behavior." Therefore, marriage, being a social contract between two people through good behavior (how else can two people get close enough to want marriage?), means that "marriage" is a privilege... it is something EARNED. It is not a right. You cannot force someone to marry you, they have to grant you the privilege. In other words, marriage is like sex. You either earn it through a consenting partner, or you force it in an act of rape. In essense, rapists are those who think sex is a "right". So they take their "right" even if their "partner" refuses. One thing important to remember: Rights are inherent in the INDIVIDUAL, whereas PRIVILEGES are granted by others. And since marriage takes two people, it is a privilege granted by another, not an individual right. Unless you happen to be a rapist.

Though I can think of one way "marriage" could become a "right"... but it would be rather stupid to marry yourself.

And then everyone who even hints at disagreeing with any part of your argument is on their own high horse who can't possibly fathom all the shit you've dealt with in your life. That you act the part of the martyr while dishing out subtle threats and insults doesn't inspire compassion or understanding of the issues surrounds why gay couples aren't equal. It only serves to push away anyone who might be on the fence about the issue to say "well fuck you too."

I just got the news earlier today that my mother won't be coming home from the care home, were she's been since her breast cancer surgery. Which means I'm out of a home, unless I find some place I can live that will accept someone with no income. So, yeah, I can fathom. But Glitch? With your attitude, I wouldn't call you the "poster child" of the LGBT community. As you've said, you're a highschooler... I'm due to turn fifty on the seventeenth of this month. Yeah, my "birthday present" is finding a new home. So if I suddenly disappear, you'll know where I've gone.

Or maybe not.

Looks like I showed up a little too late. I can't watch the videos...

You haven't missed anything.

Most arguments I have heard on the news, coming from the common person, etc. against gay marriage haven't been too strong, either. Most of it is based on the Bible, which shouldn't even count as a legitimate source because not everyone follows the Christian way of life. Just because I don't have the best arguments for supporting my claims doesn't mean I am some person who deserves to be treated like shit.

True, but it does mean you are "some person" whose arguments are, as Term said (and I paraphrase), "not very strong". Meaning, though you don't deserve to be treated like shit, you also don't deserve to be treated like a princess.

Because they have their own moral convictions as to why it is wrong or a slight against God. But you start painting tangible things that people can relate to like powers of attorney, tax benefits, and so on it becomes an issue about something physical as opposed to an abstract concept of love.

Bingo!

 

[Spatel]

Spatel, you said "Privileges are social contracts that we earn through good behavior." Therefore, marriage, being a social contract between two people through good behavior (how else can two people get close enough to want marriage?), means that "marriage" is a privilege... it is something EARNED. It is not a right. You cannot force someone to marry you, they have to grant you the privilege. In other words, marriage is like sex. You either earn it through a consenting partner, or you force it in an act of rape. In essense, rapists are those who think sex is a "right". So they take their "right" even if their "partner" refuses. One thing important to remember: Rights are inherent in the INDIVIDUAL, whereas PRIVILEGES are granted by others. And since marriage takes two people, it is a privilege granted by another, not an individual right. Unless you happen to be a rapist.

Here is an analogy:

Driving a car. That is a privilege. You can get points on your license, or you can fail the driver's test and not get a license. Or you could get a license, and live in New York and never own a car, if you so choose. The ability to pursue a license is a right. Everyone can try to obtain a license. Saying "this demographic cannot pursue a driver's license ever" is discrimination. The ability to use that license is a privilege; one that must be earned, and one that can be lost.

Marriage is the same way. Having legal marriage as an option you can pursue is a right. Succeeding in getting a marriage through dating other people and falling in love is a privilege.

Your argument right here is the equivalent to saying "it's okay if we legally ban motorcycle riders from ever getting a driver's licenses, because a license is a privilege, and they can still ride cars or take mass transit like everyone else. People have driven cars traditionally so I don't see why we should change that for this fringe interest group"... I don't know how to convey this if you can't understand it at this point. It is a nonsensical, mean-spirited, arbitrary restriction of rights to one group of people.