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New Terms of Service and Submission Agreement Policy

nobuyuki

Member
it is a building program.... Working with primitives is one way -real- 3d composition programs work. Other ways include working with vertices or NURBS. IMHO, working with Poser doesn't count as "real" 3d composition work unless you did some sort of the mesh yourself. You essentially do this in SL, but it doesn't use vertices (it uses some crap called parametric solids).

I'm not defending SL screenshots or anything, but I want to put down the idea that SL can't be used as a 3d art program. It's a closed environment for content protection, that's the main reason why stuff isn't exported from the game into a usable mesh format.

Seriously, though, hahaha. Comparing SL to poser? "Poser is for posers" as the saying goes in the 3d art realm. It has its uses, but since the last time I checked, mesh modeling isn't one of them :B
 

Tensik

Member
nobuyuki said:
it is a building program....  Working with primitives is one way -real- 3d composition programs work.  Other ways include working with vertices or NURBS.  IMHO, working with Poser doesn't count as "real" 3d composition work unless you did some sort of the mesh yourself.  You essentially do this in SL, but it doesn't use vertices (it uses some crap called parametric solids).

I'm not defending SL screenshots or anything, but I want to put down the idea that SL can't be used as a 3d art program.  It's a closed environment for content protection, that's the main reason why stuff isn't exported from the game into a usable mesh format.

Seriously, though, hahaha.  Comparing SL to poser?  "Poser is for posers" as the saying goes in the 3d art realm.  It has its uses, but since the last time I checked, mesh modeling isn't one of them :B

At least Poser is specifically designed for people to create pictures, and isn't a game that people can take pictures of. *chuckles* but yeah, I know what you mean, it's still paper dolls. But like I said, it's the intent behind it, are most people showing poser pics as art *coughs over what is still an understandibly hot topic, especially in bulk* or to say 'this is what I look like somewhere, come find me?"

Either way, this thread is getting eaten on a tangent. if anyone wants to keep up the debate, I'd be happy to move elsewhere for it, but this isn't the thread for it. :)
 

SokiTwopaw

New Member
Sorry about that, the reason why I blurted that out there was I read the TOS and STOS and thought that may be a nice thing to toss in there after reading it.
Not filters or anything, we have enough of those.
And I figured it wasn't worth making a new thread in the suggestions forum for a little blurt like that. For an example of what I mean by compiling SL shots, take a look at my gallery at "The Snow Project" before we have a flame war here. >.<
This thread is NOT about SecondLife, SL was an example.
 

Kathmandu

New Member
Heh, sorry to bust your bubble but SL "IS" Poser, Poser2 to be exact. The morph targets (sliders) are almost exactly the same. SL is basically Poser with a chat function. If Poser art is allowed, how can you honestly say SL pictures are not?

As far as SL being a game, tell me exactly how to win. Really, what is the goal? What bosses do you have to defeat or how many gold pieces do you have to collect to win? I make and sell avatars in SL and I can tell you right off that because of the limitations of the medium, just making a skin can take days. There is a lot of work involved in just getting an eyeblink animation to work let alone making hair that looks right or the 1000 other little details.

It is utter poppycock to believe SL can't be used creatively to produce artistic images. http://fchan.hentaiplanet.net/src/c_1172416162750_UW_Furry_Group2.jpg

That is an example of what can be done in SL and I made every piece of the white mouse avatar except the necklace I'm wearing. Why something like this wouldn't be considered artistic whereas doodles on lined notebook paper are, completely blows my mind. The "godrays" or light beams in the water are an effect I created and just that took several hours just to have that subtle effect. If you disqualify furry art in general regardless of medium that is simply an image of someone's character just standing there for others to see what they look like, you would remove 90% of all furry themed art. Period.
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
Last I recall, not all games were about WINNING either. Otherwise people wouldn't play the Sims.
 

WhiteKnightWolf

New Member
Rofl, I'd like to see you actually inforce that age law. I mean, it shouldn't be too hard, I mean, people don't lie about their age on the interwebz!! Never!! After all furries COULDN"T be kids under the age of 12! No way! They are all, respectable, intelligent adults!

Oh well, we all know it's just to prevent a lawsuit. I would like to know where the content restrictions are however, leaving that part out... Scares me.
 

imnohbody

Member
Arshes Nei said:
Last I recall, not all games were about WINNING either. Otherwise people wouldn't play the Sims.

I'd bet a not-small portion of those who play The Sims do so because they can be sadistic f*ckers there and put the characters into all sorts of ultimately fatal circumstances. :p
 

Hanazawa

Would Like To Play a Game
I just checked the submission agreement, and
If you are seventeen (17) years of age or younger you must have explicit permission from a parent or legal guardian before uploading to the server, and you agree that they have read and consented to both the Terms of Service and the Submission Agreement.
is still there... but Pinkuh doesn't cite parent permission in this thread.

Preyfar said this is to be enforced, so I guess the question is: was this line only added in case a parent complains about their child using the site (saying "well, the kid said his parents knew!" as a CYA) or will there actually be inquests made to verify under-17 users? I question the legally binding...ness... of that particular CYA since it's made with full awareness of the users not being old enough to sign contracts.
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
imnohbody said:
Arshes Nei said:
Last I recall, not all games were about WINNING either. Otherwise people wouldn't play the Sims.

I'd bet a not-small portion of those who play The Sims do so because they can be sadistic f*ckers there and put the characters into all sorts of ultimately fatal circumstances. :p

Yeah, watching them die can be entertaining. Not all games have specific goals as they're just ways to waste time.

I understand the customization thing on SL, but I can't exactly qualify tons of screenshots of it as art. However, there is an ART to making a good avatar. If Ferrox gets a nice filter thing going, it would be good to block out the massive amounts of SL content. I notice SL content tends to be appreciated by other SL users, and not seen as anything special as art, whereas a non artist has been able to appreciate an illustration, piece of literature, sculpture, music, and good photography etc...
 

DarkMeW

Active Member
Hanazawa said:
I just checked the submission agreement, and
If you are seventeen (17) years of age or younger you must have explicit permission from a parent or legal guardian before uploading to the server, and you agree that they have read and consented to both the Terms of Service and the Submission Agreement.
is still there... but Pinkuh doesn't cite parent permission in this thread.

Preyfar said this is to be enforced, so I guess the question is: was this line only added in case a parent complains about their child using the site (saying "well, the kid said his parents knew!" as a CYA) or will there actually be inquests made to verify under-17 users? I question the legally binding...ness... of that particular CYA since it's made with full awareness of the users not being old enough to sign contracts.

I'm rather curious on how they are going to start enforcing that particular requirement. If that means that anyone under 17 is now going to have their galleries deleted, if they don't get a note from their mommy? What sort of deadlines are going to be in place for submitting the permission? What type of documented permission they will need? The list goes on and on.

I'm sure these questions are going to keep coming up until they decide on some course of action. I dought they would be so blatant as declaring (like another in this thread posted) that it's never going to come up because every one under age on the internet lies. (Which is just stupid.)

I haven't posted any concern about the new TOS and SAP since they (for the most part) don't directly effect me, because I don't have my art on the main site. I would however, still like to see it addressed before to long.
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
Actually I don't know if anyone noticed this thread: http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=7201

But I want to bring it up for one thing, I don't think it's a good idea to have minors posting photos of themselves (possibly, because I can't say for sure in this case) illegal activity. If you're worried about Parental permission as a CYA I also think the minors myspace "hey lookie me I be durunkies!" is probably not appropriate for this site.

I think closing that thread was jumping the gun a bit since I think that's a valid question that wasn't brought up before.
 

Wolfblade

Member
Hanazawa said:
but Pinkuh doesn't cite parent permission in this thread.

Preyfar said this is to be enforced, so I guess the question is: was this line only added in case a parent complains about their child using the site (saying "well, the kid said his parents knew!" as a CYA) or will there actually be inquests made to verify under-17 users? I question the legally binding...ness... of that particular CYA since it's made with full awareness of the users not being old enough to sign contracts.

There's no reasonable way to actually verify parental consent and enforce it. And as for the fact that minors can't enter contracts, they address that:

"Fur Affinity will not be held liable for underaged Users' intentional misrepresentation or falsification of age, birth date and personal data.

We encourage parents and guardians to be familiar with the web sites that their children visit and to monitor their children’s usage regularly."

It isn't the internet's job to protect children from smut. That's the parents' job. The internet just has to boot them out when they know they are there.

DarkMeW said:
I'm rather curious on how they are going to start enforcing that particular requirement. If that means that anyone under 17 is now going to have their galleries deleted, if they don't get a note from their mommy? What sort of deadlines are going to be in place for submitting the permission? What type of documented permission they will need? The list goes on and on.

No mention was made of deleting accounts that dont have a parent's note, or requiring documented proof of permission. Basically, unless everyone wants FA to become a Pay Site, there is very little they can do about People Who Lie. Obviously, they can't go and ask for and verify a parent's note from every single user. What they CAN do is make it clear that they do not condone use of this site by minors without parental permission, and they can remove people who violate that rule when they are brought to their attention.
 

DarkMeW

Active Member
Wolfblade said:
DarkMeW said:
I'm rather curious on how they are going to start enforcing that particular requirement. If that means that anyone under 17 is now going to have their galleries deleted, if they don't get a note from their mommy? What sort of deadlines are going to be in place for submitting the permission? What type of documented permission they will need? The list goes on and on.

No mention was made of deleting accounts that dont have a parent's note, or requiring documented proof of permission. Basically, unless everyone wants FA to become a Pay Site, there is very little they can do about People Who Lie. Obviously, they can't go and ask for and verify a parent's note from every single user. What they CAN do is make it clear that they do not condone use of this site by minors without parental permission, and they can remove people who violate that rule when they are brought to their attention.

That just puts in an extra step in my question without addressing the question itself.  If someone reports or makes a list of 17 or younger users on FA (I remind you a lot of people have their age in their profiles) what will those users need to do? The TOS states "must have explicit permission from a parent or legal guardian" so is the explicit permission entirely on the user's word that it's ok, or do they need some sort of documentation of permission? I'm trying to determine if this is just a 'if you submit this image you a stating you are over 18 or have explicit parental (ect) permission.' (if it is then I personally think that should be put clearly on the submit form, so FA can refer to it being the first thing you see when submitting if anything ever comes up.)

Also I never said anything about deleting their accounts, just their gallery.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Tensik said:
At least Poser is specifically designed for people to create pictures...
I have to be honest when I say I have no respect for people who use Poser, and I say that not as an admin, but somebody with a degree in digital animation and as somebody who has worked in the industry as a 3D animator.

Poser is to 3D as to what legos are to architectual design.
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
Preyfar said:
Tensik said:
At least Poser is specifically designed for people to create pictures...
I have to be honest when I say I have no respect for people who use Poser, and I say that not as an admin, but somebody with a degree in digital animation and as somebody who has worked in the industry as a 3D animator.

Poser is to 3D as to what legos are to architectual design.

I think it's in how it is used, more than anything, I've seen some rather unique things come from it. I use poser as a reference, not to model however, it helps when you have a virtual dummy/mannikin when you need reference.

http://www.dccdesigner.com/Htm/Tutorials/TheQueen01.htm

I think how he put that picture together was actually rather impressive at the time (I remember seeing this back in the late 90's iirc).
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Arshes Nei said:
I think it's in how it is used, more than anything, I've seen some rather unique things come from it.  I use poser as a reference, not to model however, it helps when you have a virtual dummy/mannikin when you need reference.

http://www.dccdesigner.com/Htm/Tutorials/TheQueen01.htm

I think how he put that picture together was actually rather impressive at the time (I remember seeing this back in the late 90's iirc).
Oh, I used to use Poser when animating at AdMed Inc doing illustrations and diagrams for doctors. I used it for a real purpose, and hated every minute of it!
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
Preyfar said:
Arshes Nei said:
I think it's in how it is used, more than anything, I've seen some rather unique things come from it. I use poser as a reference, not to model however, it helps when you have a virtual dummy/mannikin when you need reference.

http://www.dccdesigner.com/Htm/Tutorials/TheQueen01.htm

I think how he put that picture together was actually rather impressive at the time (I remember seeing this back in the late 90's iirc).
Oh, I used to use Poser when animating at AdMed Inc doing illustrations and diagrams for doctors. I used it for a real purpose, and hated every minute of it!

Oh that's fine, there are programs people will hate with a passion, I just got the vibe that it sucked because people use it wrong. It felt like the people who blame Photoshop when people put a lens flare on a penis! It's not Photoshop's fault that someone took the mediocre approach to art XD
 
A

Ahkahna

Guest
Arshes Nei said:
Actually I don't know if anyone noticed this thread: http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=7201

But I want to bring it up for one thing, I don't think it's a good idea to have minors posting photos of themselves (possibly, because I can't say for sure in this case) illegal activity. If you're worried about Parental permission as a CYA I also think the minors myspace "hey lookie me I be durunkies!" is probably not appropriate for this site.

I think closing that thread was jumping the gun a bit since I think that's a valid question that wasn't brought up before.

I'll have to agree 100% on this.
 

tacticalsnake

Porno Cowboy
WhiteKnightWolf said:
I would like to know where the content restrictions are however, leaving that part out... Scares me.
I agree: It'd be nice to know what the bounds are again. It's a bit worrisome otherwise....
 

Damaratus

Care to join me in my lab?
There is currently an acceptable content policy being written up. It will hopefully cover your concerns, including setting the boundaries for photography (though some should still be obvious).
 

Gronthar

New Member
I like the changes to the TOS, but I think some of the major changes should be mentioned on the front page. Many online services have you re-agree to the TOS every single time it is re-written. I don't think it needs to go that far, but I think at least some of the major bullet points should be mentioned in the news box.

As far as what is considered Art and what isn't... I think it would be wise to look at how other sites handle AUP. I know Flickr doesn't like second life screen shots either, but they respect that a lot of people are interested in it. Their solution was to allow people to post questionable content to their accounts, but flag it as "private." This action prevented the screen shots from showing up in searches and the front page but still made it accessible from their account pages. It's a bit of a compromise that requires extra coding and disk space, but it allows people to express themselves without moving away from the site's focus on photography.

My understanding is that the consensus is that having the "most faved" or "hot" submissions appear on the front page would equate to a popularity contest. However, it might go a long way to show through example what sort of work you want submitted.

I really love the social aspect of this site, but I understand the revulsion to just uploading "shots" of Real Life or Virtual Life. The simplest way with the site's current functionality would be to say in a future version of the AUP that anything of a scrap-book nature including casual shots of yourself, friends, family and possessions from real life, video games or online worlds should be submitted as a scrap.

In the future it would be wise to add the ability to watch a person's submissions, journals, and/or scraps. People have a tendency to post scraps as regular submissions because people can't watch scraps. I think some people don't want to watch journals, either.

Poser, Second-life, and machinima compared to real professional 3-D rendering tools to may be the equivalent of Crayola crayons compared to fine canvas oil-panting, but I don't believe it's wise to judge merit based on medium. But I think the nature of most of the SL screen shots I've seen here (and frankly, some of mine) are of the "shot" variety and just saying "shots belong in scraps" would go a long way to ease some frustrations of people repeatedly seeing them in the site's main content.

Ideally, the site should get its filters running again so it can automatically filter out content.

Another interesting feature I've seen on other sites (Blogger, Flickr, even Deviant Art) is the ability to flag Policy Violations. Leaving judgment solely up to the discretion of admins is just asking for drama. However, if an admin can say "Well, 30 people flagged this as a AUP violation and left comments that this screen shot should be in your scraps," then you have a stronger case. Of course, you may get a lot of busy bodies flagging everything, but I think it goes a long way to show that as a site we are monitoring ourselves and Enforcing the TOS and AUP. There would be a need for a max daily amount of flags a single person could do, but It would ultimately be up to the admins weather or not to take action. This set-up would discourage users from ganging up on others since a set number of votes doesn't automatically equate to a removal.

Although, it would be helpful to users if they received notification if a submission is being repeatedly flagged, especially with old submissions that may or may not fit the current policies of the site. That way things may get resolved even without admin intervention.
 

ferretsage

Well-Known Member
Questions:

1. Does the 7-day grace period start when the TOS changes or when the user returns to FA to find the TOS has changed?

2. What if a user who has reached the age of 18 lies about their correct birth date anyway in order to make sure their drawings online are not traced back to them in real life? Assume, at the time of the contract breach, nothing more than the user simply believed it would better protect his private information by entering a false date close to the correct date -- and that the user was of legal adult age at all times while accessing FurAffinity. Should they change their age to the correct date? If they "turn themselves in" and agree to change their submitted birth date to the correct information, will they be granted a pardon for breaking the rules retroactively -- or insta-banned anyway?

3. Can fanart still be made of Fender, the site's mascot, even though, "The Fur Affinity name, site mascot (Fender), website coding and graphics are sole property of Fur Affinity, unless otherwise stated. You may not reproduce, distribute and/or display Fur Affinity graphics or works without express permission."?

4. Say that an artist has drawn a picture for more than one individual and presents it to them as a gift. May a user upload the piece to Furaffinity if he has express permission from all parties involved -- including the artist? The wording of the current TOS and Submissions Agreement suggests that artwork created by an artist for multiple individuals may only be uploaded by the original artist and may NOT be uploaded by the recipients of the work even if they obtain permission from each other and the artist. Confirm?



Contradictions/Loopholes:

1. In the TOS, it states, "Fur Affinity Administration and Staff reserve the rights of the following:... To remove any and/or all submissions found not in accordance with the Terms of Service and Submission Policy. Fur Affinity will attempt to notify Users of any and all action taken upon submissions removed in this manner." In a later paragraph, it says that "When posting submission(s) created for you, you must cite your sources at all times and attribute credit where it is due. Failure to do so may result in the submission(s) being removed with or without notice." What doesn't make sense is that the TOS first makes a promise to attempt to notify users about action taken against a submission if it violates the TOS, but then says such may be removed "without notice".

2. The TOS states, "Fur Affinity will not modify or censor original uploads." However, the Submissions Agreement states that, "Upon submitting to Fur Affinity you grant the website non-exclusive rights to transmit, resize, store, display, publish or alter any submission media within the boundaries of the site's Domains (http://www.furaffinity.net/, http://www.furaffinityforums.net/ and http://www.wikiffinity.net/)". The word "alter" in the last sentence is troubling because it implies modification to an original upload. I understand that by "alter" FurAffinity means this to cut down on a excessively large submission to reduce its file size -- but it could be exploited by a "professional plaintiff" to claim that Furaffinity had no right to resize or reduce the file-size of his/her work as FA promised not to do so under its Terms of Service Agreement.
 

Summercat

Former Motterator
Preyfar said:
Tensik said:
At least Poser is specifically designed for people to create pictures...
I have to be honest when I say I have no respect for people who use Poser, and I say that not as an admin, but somebody with a degree in digital animation and as somebody who has worked in the industry as a 3D animator.

Poser is to 3D as to what legos are to architectual design.

*sniff sniff* Lego hater!

Meanwhile... I must say this:

I don't care what the HELL the program is 'supposed' to be used for, or how the designers 'meant' for it to be used, you can still create art with anything.

Having that screenshot, with all the mobs in the Scarlet Cathedral on my friends level 70 warrior and STILL downing Morgraine, in World of Warcraft, that's a bit of art.
 

dave hyena

A wonderous moorhen
ferretsage said:
3. Can fanart still be made of Fender, the site's mascot, even though, "The Fur Affinity name, site mascot (Fender), website coding and graphics are sole property of Fur Affinity, unless otherwise stated. You may not reproduce, distribute and/or display Fur Affinity graphics or works without express permission."?

I'm as sure as sure can be that one can still do so.

I expect that bit is in there for legal reasons and stuff.
 

Wolfblade

Member
Okies, big post gets big response.

Gronthar said:
...some of the major bullet points should be mentioned in the news box.

After a point, it becomes hand-holding. They post that there have been changes, and that they apply to everyone and all submissions. If people don't care to go read the changes, they really don't have room for complaint if they find out the hard way that those changes affect them.

Gronthar said:
As far as what is considered Art and what isn't...

I think the issue with screenshots specifically is more of using copyrighted content rather than simply space or preference. As for what is art and what isn't, its tough to want to have SOME measure of standards for a site without people confusing it with censorship. The problem isn't so much about photo pieces that may be very amateur photographic art. The problem is when someone takes a picture of their ass/yawning cat/ice cream on toast or something. Any of these things will be considered art by SOMEBODY, but then someone somewhere considered a sculpture of the Virgin Mary made entirely of human waste a work of Art (true story).

So the question is how to keep the site from being bothered with inane photos that are just for "hey look at this" factor and not a genuine attempt at art, without punishing the people who are TRYING for art, but might not be terribly good at it yet.

Basically, they don't want this place used as a free imagehost/photo dump. There are places meant for that, but this place is meant for creative expression. So I think people who just want to share the more social aspects could easily get one of the freehosts out there, and link things to their journals.

Gronthar said:
My understanding is that the consensus is that having the "most faved" or "hot" submissions appear on the front page would equate to a popularity contest. However, it might go a long way to show through example what sort of work you want submitted.

The popularity contest factor usually gets ideas like this a LOT of heat and distaste. In all honesty, it really isn't a fair method either. There are people with amazing talent who havent become "names" yet, so they get overlooked. Usually anything based on faves/pageviews is seen as discriminatory against beginning artists, and too likely to just give more attention to the people who already have plenty.

Gronthar said:
In the future it would be wise to add the ability to watch a person's submissions, journals, and/or scraps. People have a tendency to post scraps as regular submissions because people can't watch scraps. I think some people don't want to watch journals, either.

A feature many have asked for, but not sure whether or not its on the list of Ferrox additions...

Gronthar said:
Ideally, the site should get its filters running again so it can automatically filter out content.

Definitely with you on that one :3

Gronthar said:
Another interesting feature I've seen on other sites (Blogger, Flickr, even Deviant Art) is the ability to flag Policy Violations. Leaving judgment solely up to the discretion of admins is just asking for drama. However, if an admin can say "Well, 30 people flagged this as a AUP violation and left comments that this screen shot should be in your scraps," then you have a stronger case. Of course, you may get a lot of busy bodies flagging everything, but I think it goes a long way to show that as a site we are monitoring ourselves and Enforcing the TOS and AUP. There would be a need for a max daily amount of flags a single person could do, but It would ultimately be up to the admins weather or not to take action. This set-up would discourage users from ganging up on others since a set number of votes doesn't automatically equate to a removal.

I completely agree with this, so long as the button given to the users does nothing but flag a submission (Y!G gave users the ability to report a submission, which would immediately hide it from view - which was dumb and got abused a lot). Administrative decisions should always be ultimately at the Administration's discretion, but having such a feature would likely help a great deal with keeping them in touch with what the users want (something that IS first and foremost on this administration's minds, regardless of who say otherwise). And yeah, there would have to be something in place to discourage people from abusing the feature. Whether limits for how many reports in a day, or some sort of consequence for people who report frivolously.
 
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