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No mods with [recent] bans

Le Chat Nécro

most thugged-out dope hoe
Hey.

So I know the search for mods is on which is great. We definitely need more than one person watching things on here. But the search criteria have been vague or non existent, so I wanted to propose one in case it's not already being considered.

Anyone with a prior ban cannot be a mod.

It just makes logical sense to me that a person who has been banned for not following forum rules should not be put in charge of enforcing them. However, I get that a lot of people have been banned here. Like a lot. So in the interest of not thinning the applicant pool to the point of nothingness, I also have a compromise proposal.

Anyone who has been banned within the last 12 months cannot be a mod.

Same base idea but it allows a banned person time to prove that they've learned the rules and/or respect them. It's long enough that someone really has to commit to it rather than just going on good behaviour for a week to get the job then going back to old habits.

I dunno. This seems really reasonable to me, but I have this innate feeling I'm going to get backlash for it. I just personally think it would be counter intuitive to have someone who got in enough trouble to earn a ban be in charge of moderating the behavior of others.

Editing to tag @Dragoneer cause I want to make sure he sees this and has the opportunity to take it into consideration.
 
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Le Chat Nécro

most thugged-out dope hoe
To be clear, I would prefer mods who have never been banned at all, but I get the sense that that might be too unrealistic an expectation.
But I could also be severely overestimating how many bans go around this place. *shrug*
 

GreenZone

Banned
Banned
To be clear, I would prefer mods who have never been banned at all, but I get the sense that that might be too unrealistic an expectation.
But I could also be severely overestimating how many bans go around this place. *shrug*


personally i'd like to see unbiased mods but the problem is they need to be unemployed this is pretty much a unpaid full time job i can't think of anyone off the top of my head who's unemployed and doesn't lean anywhere
 

Le Chat Nécro

most thugged-out dope hoe
personally i'd like to see unbiased mods but the problem is they need to be unemployed this is pretty much a unpaid full time job i can't think of anyone off the top of my head who's unemployed and doesn't lean anywhere
If we had enough mods with varying schedules, they wouldn't need to be unemployed.
 

Whimsycal

The whimsical clown
If we had enough mods with varying schedules, they wouldn't need to be unemployed.

I agree, is a good idea the one you say, I mean I agree with the whole post regarding mods, I think it inspires trust to know the mod hasn't been banned. Plus varying schedules do help ease the charge on one mod and help to know there are others working when you are not in. Is the same feeling that allows work charge to ease on people.
 

Le Chat Nécro

most thugged-out dope hoe
i think the no ban rule is a good idea we need people who are level headed with no political leaning and that has the community in their best interest mods hold a lot of power which can be easily abused if we're too quick to just get people in
I'm envisioning a full team that can work in loose "shifts". Maybe not full 8-hour shifts like a regular job, but maybe like four 6-hour shifts per day. Or six 4-hour shifts. The mods would be comprised of people from all over such that mods in Asia could cover things while the American mods are sleeping and so forth. Or the night owls of America could watch while the Eastern Hemisphere works. It's a mixture and a balance. And at least two mods would be on at any given time.

I'm not sure we could find people who are true neutral, but at least someone who doesn't let politics get in the way of objectivity. Rule breaking is rule breaking whether you're a righty or a lefty or whathaveyou. Things might get messy here and there, but with more mods they could have a way of keeping each other in check in case any bias slips through. For particularly touchy subjects, they could set up like a 2-factor resolution process where more than one mod has to look things over and agree.
 

GreenZone

Banned
Banned
I'm envisioning a full team that can work in loose "shifts". Maybe not full 8-hour shifts like a regular job,

i'll be blunt wont be happening we talked about this for over now Neer is just not interested i don't know if he said he'll get new staff in directly but he probably just means some one to replace Mungo

but yes he should have larger pool of volunteer mods and a two factor system
 

Whimsycal

The whimsical clown
I'm envisioning a full team that can work in loose "shifts". Maybe not full 8-hour shifts like a regular job, but maybe like four 6-hour shifts per day. Or six 4-hour shifts. The mods would be comprised of people from all over such that mods in Asia could cover things while the American mods are sleeping and so forth. Or the night owls of America could watch while the Eastern Hemisphere works. It's a mixture and a balance. And at least two mods would be on at any given time.

I'm not sure we could find people who are true neutral, but at least someone who doesn't let politics get in the way of objectivity. Rule breaking is rule breaking whether you're a righty or a lefty or whathaveyou. Things might get messy here and there, but with more mods they could have a way of keeping each other in check in case any bias slips through. For particularly touchy subjects, they could set up like a 2-factor resolution process where more than one mod has to look things over and agree.

Feels like a solid system if you ask me.
 

Le Chat Nécro

most thugged-out dope hoe
i'll be blunt wont be happening we talked about this for over now Neer is just not interested i don't know if he said he'll get new staff in directly but he probably just means some one to replace Mungo

but yes he should have larger pool of volunteer mods and a two factor system
Oh, I completely realize this is a pipe dream. But what a beautiful dream it is... *looks into the middle distance wistfully*
And I vaguely remember Neer saying something about just pulling mods from the main site which seems.. dubious. Honestly, I'm really surprised that there isn't even like an application link or something up so people could at least put their name forward in a more formal way than just shouting into the void "I"LL DO IT".

Cause I would do it.


Feels like a solid system if you ask me.
Like, honestly. This is how things should have been day 1.
 

GreenZone

Banned
Banned
Oh, I completely realize this is a pipe dream. But what a beautiful dream it is... *looks into the middle distance wistfully*
And I vaguely remember Neer saying something about just pulling mods from the main site which seems.. dubious. Honestly, I'm really surprised that there isn't even like an application link or something up so people could at least put their name forward in a more formal way than just shouting into the void "I"LL DO IT".

Cause I would do it.

i'm not touching that for risk of an infraction for "disrespecting staff" you can't exactly talk openly on here when it comes to staff
 

Le Chat Nécro

most thugged-out dope hoe
i'm not touching that for risk of an infraction for "disrespecting staff" you can't exactly talk openly on here when it comes to staff
But this is a suggestion thread. For suggestions. And we're just suggesting things.
It's fine. ^.-

To be fair, I don't know Neer or his life or what he's doing, so I'm not going to make any value judgments on him or his process. It just seems to me like it would be a lot easier if they just made up an application form on like Survey Monkey or something and at least let people formally apply. Even if they don't end up "hiring" any of us, at the very least it would feel like more progress is being made in this endeavor, ya know?

Can't really get knew mods if you don't have a way for people to apply!
 

metafang

Well-Known Member
im liking this process / search for common ground and balancing labor of making spaces.

in my mind... and day to day life...
community spaces that want to encourage diverse members to express and take part in a relaxed way, and its natural and everyone's coming from their own place and good discussions going on, people feel heard and respected, exc, need to express and understand that the world is v e r y different depending on who you are.


i thought it might help to provide some music bc i do feel a story coming on, my winds are long lately... @_@ ;;!

fur instance ~ where i live, there's a big push from city council and the tourist (wine) industry to eliminate all homeless (mostly disabled people, predominantly native / indigenous ppl and queer/trans ppl)- eliminate doesnt mean, provide everyone with psychological care for their trauma, help ppl find employment, or provide ppl with housing, it means to make them physically leave or face arrest/imprisonment. It doesn't mean fix homelessness, it means hide the abuses/neglect from the public and the press. however, most cities i know in california are doing this. i had this happen to me multiple times when i was homeless. the idea is, rich ppl don't feel comfortable seeing poor people, and city council wants to make rich people comfortable because they want rich ppls money. the only guaranteed public bathrooms available are in the libraries. when i was homeless (bc im a trans asian person and, statistically speaking i should have met death more completely by now so im content to have missed that bigger problem and landed with a few years of nasty) i knew i could go to a library, if gas stations in the area didn't give me a bathroom key without buying anything. i was raised lower middle class but i had abuse in my family that made me leave before i could get stable and move in somewhere. everyone on the street is simply trying to live and be ok.

for a middle class mom looking for a nice surprise for their kids, the library is a place for books.
for a homeless individual, the library is a place that is tolerant in behavior to visibly homeless ppl; it is a place that lets you access the internet (job searches, food and shelter resources, furaffinity.net); it is a place the police will not harrass you for being homeless; it is a place that lets you wash in the sink a little or p00p for the first time in a day; AND, it is a place for books.

so if middle class mom were anxious around a homeless individual at the library who is just, minding their business but has a backpack and is smelly, that mom might feel entitled to ask the librarians (the mods of the library) to remove the individual. or the mom might not even approach the mods, but take it on her self to be entitled to tell the individual something like, "this is a library, it's for books, why are you here loitering", she's not saying, emotionally, "are you ok? tell me do you have a home, do you have support, what is your life like?" to someone who is doing their best and is probably very traumatized. when she says "this is a library its for books why are you here" shes saying, "this place is not for you."

---

not only this but, there is community around at the library also. when this interaction is seen, what do the ppl around them take away? houseless ppl might feel shame or anger or frustration. middle class moms around who fear houseless ppl might feel relieved "someone" finally said "something" (which shows a lot about what voices and people have power and matter in the minds of the middle class). what do kids think? this is where our actions turn into re-creation of the same power dynamics. maybe the kids around will believe it's the individuals fault they are homeless. maybe the kids around will see that the person is a little stinky but they aren't hurting anybody, and be confused why mom is treating this other person with disrespect or even hate. however, did it have to be that way? what kinds of worlds are possible, when we choose to create different power dynamics?

ppl sometimes imagine that there is some kind of balance between two opposing points of view - "left" and "right".

this pretends there is equal access to power, money, time, voice, and inclusion.

if we frame things as, only political, sort of, just for the sake of debate or game, only theory, we are missing all of the information someone might be willing to share - beyond cynical troll responses, self-hating jokes made to try and fit in, and ghostly lurking of forums seeing how many people might be willing to understand before choosing to participate in a thread or roleplay. not only do WE miss out on information, but that person who's identity is being talked about as a debate topic gets the unplesant experience of basically being referred to as a unicorn. while "both sides" of the aisle yell at each other that unicorns do or dont exist, that person is still dealing with... being themselves. i would like to hear those individuals.

if we frame moderator role as protecting furs' access to participate in the forums in a healthy way, whose access are we protecting?
is it good moderation to protect the mom's right to go up to a homeless person and tell them to leave, when she could just give the person respect and distance?
is it good moderation to explain to the mom that the library is for everyone?
who's everyone?
the library is a completely different building depending on who you are.

and if you zoom out of the library, the city is a completely different city depending on who you are. if you zoom out of 2018 and look at human history, the time period where the genocide of native / indigenous ppl, when colonization, was just beginning, it was not that long ago. the year, the city, the library, are all skewed to prioritize the voices and needs of wealthy people, people who are the kids of the kids of the kids of the colonists. so what is good moderation in a context like our lives?

it is so juicy and awesome to have the kinds of threads where ppl can chime in - not just with data on numbers, but with data on emotions and communities. the internet has potential to connect so many people.

i grow older and begin to see the ways a population is more easily kept divided, and the attempt to divide ppls experiences and expressions into "left" and "right" is like trying to render a full color animation into a black and white 16 bit still image at icon sizing. the outcome is yikes.

this is a super long drawl now but i wanted to drawl a picture of what i think of when i read or see community guidelines for a space.

guidelines such as FA forums has right now is a good reference for specific guidelines, but i also think more could be done to skew things away from preventing animosity and more towards asking for input and leadership from furs who have been the punching bags in these early days of internet, because the ground is, kinda lava. the first people who had time money and access to online culture, so the ppl who shaped the power dynamics online, were almost all white guys. not all white dudes are racist 4chan types, but white dudes might not understand the way someone's post is basically saying, "this library is not for you". so i hope that instead of trying to look for people who are "balanced" between "right" and "left", we can look for people with patience, willingness to change power dynamics, and ability to be an advocate for making the forums a place for people to connect and have fun- INcluding those of us who endured race jokes, fat jokes, rape jokes exc at our expense in the past- and EXcluding the expressions of hate in socially acceptable clothing when people post before mentioned content. I'm not saying this is easy, at all, but what we currently have in online cultures reflects only the needs of some. please dont mistake this as a call to make white straight cis men leave because this is not that- but i am interested in what ways ppl could change the collective space to be more representative. it is definately global, diverse, there's disabled, all kinds of experiences, ages, class statuses, cultures, ideas, nightmares, life paths.

but it could also be that ppl have gotten tired of being harassed and that the forums are mostly populated by those of us who feel welcomed in the library and mostly feel like its about books and also feel comfortable to tell other people to leave the library, directly or indirectly. I hope not.

with the expressions of most ppls in the thread so far, i gather people would not be comfortable with someone as biased as me being a mod.
If you think that it is a hateful or bad or ignorant perspective for me to say that all cops are used as weapons to oppress people like me, and therefore i generalize all cops as bad violent people, maybe the only part of the conversation we can agree on is my bias. however, I want to be clear that i don't believe there can be such a thing as lack of bias. we are all informed in different ways. we are all biased.
(TBH i am toooo busy right now to volunteer, and also recovering from brain injury and old sexual assault trauma, related to above point about police.)

honestly, thoughtfully, and intentionally: i am biased. i am biased against expressions of hate, whether its expressed as an intellectual sounding debate instead of listening and believing someone's experience, or whether its a blatant statement. Im so excited to do what i can to make childhood and public space online less shitty for people than it was for me... and to make it more awesome instead.

...RAMBLES~! yeah the library example is not so good lmao but i hope at least some parts of this post contribute to this cool discussion you all are having :O
if yu read even half of this lmao thanx for your time i know this is a lot ://

thank you individuals for posting ideas sharing thoughts and feelings.


 

metafang

Well-Known Member
yes i did take about 3 hours to write the above, somehow went over 10k character limit o_o;;
but i has these 2 babby questions...

1. when i take on a role of facilitating a meeting or being a volunteer suicide hotline operator, I follow specific guidelines that is more about making the space for communication to exist, instead of the focus being on me, my feelings, my thoughts, my experience and sharing my personal perspective I transform into bird mode and fly above for a 3rd person perspective on whatever situation im in, to try and hear multiple points of input and find the Common Ground. I agree moderators need to be able to "play the role"- but when people are not actively on a mod shift, are they able to share how they feel about being who they are, or does that become political? if that is the perspective, that is unfair to those of us who experience the library differently. if ppl mod, are they allowed to also express and contribute in their off time?

2. practical matters... breaking down time schedules and activity, how many volunteer mods do you think would make the forums staffed enough? should part of a call for moderators be explicitly asking for mod volunteers who have life experience dealing with the internal, psychological repercussions of social and media violence?
 

Le Chat Nécro

most thugged-out dope hoe
yes i did take about 3 hours to write the above, somehow went over 10k character limit o_o;;
but i has these 2 babby questions...

1. when i take on a role of facilitating a meeting or being a volunteer suicide hotline operator, I follow specific guidelines that is more about making the space for communication to exist, instead of the focus being on me, my feelings, my thoughts, my experience and sharing my personal perspective I transform into bird mode and fly above for a 3rd person perspective on whatever situation im in, to try and hear multiple points of input and find the Common Ground. I agree moderators need to be able to "play the role"- but when people are not actively on a mod shift, are they able to share how they feel about being who they are, or does that become political? if that is the perspective, that is unfair to those of us who experience the library differently. if ppl mod, are they allowed to also express and contribute in their off time?

2. practical matters... breaking down time schedules and activity, how many volunteer mods do you think would make the forums staffed enough? should part of a call for moderators be explicitly asking for mod volunteers who have life experience dealing with the internal, psychological repercussions of social and media violence?
1) Mods can definitely still contribute. Mungo when she was a mod and SSJ now posted alongside the rest of us. Mods shouldn't be barred from having fun just because they also happen to have some power.

2) I think a team of 8 or 10 people would suffice. That would staff the four 6-hour shifts idea posted above comfortably. I definitely think prior experience and knowledge of psychology would be helpful. Like, they don't need a degree or something, but knowing how to diffuse tense situations or help those in distress are good things to bring to the table.
 

Whimsycal

The whimsical clown
1) Mods can definitely still contribute. Mungo when she was a mod and SSJ now posted alongside the rest of us. Mods shouldn't be barred from having fun just because they also happen to have some power.

2) I think a team of 8 or 10 people would suffice. That would staff the four 6-hour shifts idea posted above comfortably. I definitely think prior experience and knowledge of psychology would be helpful. Like, they don't need a degree or something, but knowing how to diffuse tense situations or help those in distress are good things to bring to the table.

Sometimes the best answer is as simple as that, being able to diffuse situations is incredibly useful, especially on forums.
 

Yakamaru

Woof? Woof
Would a Liberal user be OK with a Conservative admin?
Would a Conservative user be OK with a Liberal admin?
Would Conservative/Liberal users be OK with a Centrist admin?

IMO I don't really care if someone's been banned or not. Users who gets temporarily banned can and will at times reflect on their past behaviour and correct it.

If they are competent and good at their potential "job" as an admin, I would much rather have them than someone who is present but incapable, or perhaps worse, favors one user over others. Applying the rules equally onto everyone is a quality a mod should have.

Interesting points brought up though.
 

Le Chat Nécro

most thugged-out dope hoe
IMO I don't really care if someone's been banned or not. Users who gets temporarily banned can and will at times reflect on their past behaviour and correct it.
Which is why I followed up with the 1 year time frame. Enough time to clean up their act and prove that they're really past whatever behavior landed them with the ban in the first place. If they were banned just last week.. eh, I'm not so inclined to believe they're truly reformed.

And as far as partiality, people get banned for being dicks to each other all the time. While you may be concerned that a mod with a particular political leaning might favor their peers over the opposition, I'm equally concerned that someone who's gotten in trouble before might go after the person who got them banned, or those that they were prone to pick on before.

Push comes to shove, it just doesn't make much sense to put the people who have shown that they will freely disregard the rules in a position meant to uphold them. If you're worried about bias, my full team and 2-factor resolution idea would help nip that in the bud.
 

zenmaldita

always hungry
I agree. It's completely logical - who would want anyone with a record to be policing what people can't do on a forum? With a surplus of wise asses around, the first thing they'll probably complain about in their "why did I get banned" pity-fishing thread would be the mod's history. "My ban is invalid, cos they got banned too!" smh

..

Concerning the future mods in question. What if the person has no political views whatsoever or isn't at all aware of the politics in the US? All they want is peace, harmony and keep the thread on topic. Would they still b considered?
 

Le Chat Nécro

most thugged-out dope hoe
I agree. It's completely logical - who would want anyone with a record to be policing what people can't do on a forum? With a surplus of wise asses around, the first thing they'll probably complain about in their "why did I get banned" pity-fishing thread would be the mod's history. "My ban is invalid, cos they got banned too!" smh

..

Concerning the future mods in question. What if the person has no political views whatsoever or isn't at all aware of the politics in the US? All they want is peace, harmony and keep the thread on topic. Would they still b considered?
Oh. Hadn't even considered that. The old "why is it okay for them but not for me?" question. It could definitely undermine the potential mods authority and make for a lot of whining.

Personally, I don't mind someone who has political views so long as those beliefs don't bleed into everything. Like, the only time I really talked about my political beliefs was on a thread specifically about political shit. Any where else? Just a normal fur having fun. And that's what we need. Someone who can have their personal feelings but know when and where and how those should and should not be expressed. Finding someone entirely apolitical is going to be hard af, especially in this day and age, but we should be able to find people who are political without it being their only defining feature.
 
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