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Opinions On Fractal Artwork.

Should We Allow Fractals On FA?

  • Yes. (Keeping Answers Neutral)

    Votes: 119 79.3%
  • No. (Keeping Answers Neutral)

    Votes: 31 20.7%

  • Total voters
    150
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Not open for further replies.

Eevee

Banned
Banned
Feh, most artists can crank out sketches at least once every thirty minutes.
Yes, but those are sketches. They are rough drafts at best. Nothing wrong with uploading anything that never got out of the sketch phase, but I would similarly question someone who produced a lot of sketches and felt the need to upload every single one. They're just steps in the creative process that occasionally shine enough to share.

Fractals are being presented here as finished pieces.

You know, just like we don't allow photography because of the people who take snapshots of their plushies.
Which we shouldn't allow, but the AUP is too concerned with restating the same basic "only upload crap you created" principle half a dozen times and outright avoids addressing what should count as "creation" in the first place.
 

Verin Asper

The Smart Idiot
I dont care as long its isnt spam...and in my book 40 a week is spam, just saying its that easy to make'em
 

Nanakisan

Wild lunatic!
I'd actually be more comfortable with 2 a day instead of 5
 

kewlhotrod

Unleash Your Inner Beast...
As has been stated multiple times; limits are fine.

We can go ahead with said "Fractal" group, and have a head of said group to keep track of everyone else, along with everyone keeping track of each other as well.

This way any blatant disregard to rules will be reported, and said user will be talked to.



And I agree. Those fractal artists that pump out fractals 5-10 a day are simply not trying. If you look at my fractals, unless it is after a return from a long vacation away or something, I have rarely uploaded more than 1 a day, and a LOT of them have a good week in-between fractal uploads. It depends on who the artist is and how much they care about their work.

And to rebuttal your comment, Eevee, I have myself seen a few artists that pump out entire, fully done works more than 10 times a day and whatnot. Not because of a long break or anything; it's regular.

Just saying. :p
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
And pretty much it is because I actually care about the subject matter spent 2 full days to type things as more things are added here. I could have wrote more explaining it in more depth. Its one of your pet peeves? I am sorry but when you care about something, you will go to great length to protect your rights and your craft in this case. Plus adding the fact I have been unable to draw and sleep trying to make sense of this really.
Actually? Yes, yes I do.

And while I care about something, I care about being presented the facts. Serve them up in an honest, open and easy to digest format. Information overload waters down the thread without entirely contributing to it for benefit. If I have to search for the legitimate concerns as to why changes should be implemented... then it doesn't support your cause. And it doesn't help the admins easily decipher as to the reasons you feel we should allow Fractals.

I shouldn't need to have to dissect posts to break them down from the wheat and the chaff.
 

Lonely Gabu

Gabu-Hybrid
No, actually, I was being generous. Accounting for sleep means you take less than three hours to produce a fractal (16 hours/day * 7 days/week / (40 fractals/week) = 2.8 hours/fractal), but still has the same total for a whole year (40 fractals/week * 52 weeks/year * 2 years = 4160 fractals/year).


I'm just going by your own "reasonable" limit.
You are pushing it to its limit some people because of life may be able to produce one a day and twice on a weekend. Meaning they only produce 9 of course going below the limit? Don't think someone may post all that that is why for those that could possibly churn out the amount because they are good at what they do, then it is something.



If you are churning these out that fast and feel they are all excellent enough to upload, something is wrong.

Everything you're saying here is just convincing me further that these things take a minimum of ability to produce.

Most badges I see uploaded are very high quality, montages of multiple badges, or both.

Actually my sister for instance Shadowpelt could create a badge in under 30 minutes each. Her quality isn't at all bad. Some people could work faster then others because thats what they do for a living or that's what they do so it builds speed. I know people that could do a full sketch of someone in under 5 minutes that beat some great masters? So your point I don't get.

If someone works at a craft, they get slightly faster and have more character. So i really don't know why you are saying that my minimum is more then sufficient. You make it sound like if we make it 40 that their will be someone that will post 40 every week consistently. I highly doubt it. So 40 is a good starting point.
 

Lonely Gabu

Gabu-Hybrid
Actually? Yes, yes I do.

And while I care about something, I care about being presented the facts. Serve them up in an honest, open and easy to digest format. Information overload waters down the thread without entirely contributing to it for benefit. If I have to search for the legitimate concerns as to why changes should be implemented... then it doesn't support your cause. And it doesn't help the admins easily decipher as to the reasons you feel we should allow Fractals.

I shouldn't need to have to dissect posts to break them down from the wheat and the chaff.

This is not so easily achieved when I can't freeze what is being said in time, and try and come back and decipher whats being said. so I replied to 90% of the people even cutting down what they said to actually discuss how I felt.

Was I being excessive? Yes I was and I apologize for that but 2 days of forums and I missed a lot in between some of which needed to responded too I could have just summed up everything but rather have the ability to quote those that said things so therefore my opinion has a platform.

As for reasons, I wrote a short approach letter before. Thought that you guys would read it. If you would like I could send it to you and the Admins if it would help.

If I could help then please let me know.
 

Petrock

Science Nut
I'm not entirely sure how FA would consider this, but it's easy to MAKE (ie pixel-by-pixel) fractal-like images in ANY art program. It's NO different than coloring. Would they take that down just because it looks like something else?

And what about filter effects in Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro? Wouldn't those technically be outlawed under current FA rules?

I say let generator-based content be allowed. There's too many things that ARE user-generated that ARE allowed for this rule to make any sense.
 

kewlhotrod

Unleash Your Inner Beast...
Well, to be totally honest it's impossible to make a true fractal with anything else but a flame algorithm.

However, your point holds true in some cases. It has been discussed in more depth previously. :)
 

Renard_v

FAT DONGS
Does this mean we're going to start removing Photoshop graphics where nothing but pre-defined effects and layer styles are used?
 

Alex Cross

Taste the Music
I see the merits from the arguments on both sides. Personally, I love fractals and I agree that they are, indeed, a work of art.

The problem that I have -- and I've been saying this for years when it comes to FA -- is that people are talking about adding these art styles when they're not particularly furry. If you want to express yourself with art creations that aren't furry-related, there's always sites like deviantART.

I've heard the argument, "Well, it's furry-related because the artists producing the work is furry." That's a good argument, but it has a flaw.

I'm a musician and I -- as well as other musicians -- submit a lot of music that isn't furry-related, but I feel that lyrical content should only be restricted by genre instead of theme. 'Sides, a lot of music is not accompanied by art (a thumbnail, maybe) and it appeals to the ears and not to the eyes.

It's all about what we see on the front page. Should FA allow fractals? If they allow fractals, what else would they feel obligated to allow if fractals are the exception to the AUP violation? When someone visits the FurAffinity front page, what are we going to see? Not a lot of anthropomorphic work, at least, that's my concern.
 

kewlhotrod

Unleash Your Inner Beast...
Good point, except for a few flaws in itself.

One: Hearing is a sense, just as seeing is, correct? One sense does not have higher priority over the other, so that doesn't make too much sense, (pardon the pun).

Also, it wouldn't be the ONLY exception for the AUP. There's PLENTY already. This is just to add another one. Especially since they are revising the AUP, it's a good time to bring it up

Also, think about it. Anthro art will still GREATLY overpower fractal art. With a ratio of something along the lines of 150 something furry artists to each fractal artist, even if that fractal artist were to upload 50 images a day, it would still get totally drowned out.



Also, thank you for the idea.

Dragoneer, Damaratus, Coders and all. Why don't we simply add a separate section on the front page for fractal artwork? Kind of how music and stories go. It won't appear on the recent submission list, and will only be viewable from there.
 

Aden

Play from your ****ing HEART
The problem that I have -- and I've been saying this for years when it comes to FA -- is that people are talking about adding these art styles when they're not particularly furry. If you want to express yourself with art creations that aren't furry-related, there's always sites like deviantART.

I've heard the argument, "Well, it's furry-related because the artists producing the work is furry." That's a good argument, but it has a flaw.

I'm a musician and I -- as well as other musicians -- submit a lot of music that isn't furry-related, but I feel that lyrical content should only be restricted by genre instead of theme. 'Sides, a lot of music is not accompanied by art (a thumbnail, maybe) and it appeals to the ears and not to the eyes.

It's all about what we see on the front page. Should FA allow fractals? If they allow fractals, what else would they feel obligated to allow if fractals are the exception to the AUP violation? When someone visits the FurAffinity front page, what are we going to see? Not a lot of anthropomorphic work, at least, that's my concern.

Or you can look at it another way and see that the people making the fractal artwork are furries.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Why don't we simply add a separate section on the front page for fractal artwork? Kind of how music and stories go. It won't appear on the recent submission list, and will only be viewable from there.
No. Now you're just asking for too much, and frankly... that's a silly request. There's almost no fractals on FA period. Redoing the display sections for a vastly minority art is just not a good idea.
 

timoran

Banned
Banned
My opinion on this matter (I tend to chime in on dramatic forum posts when the site goes down):

1. Who decides whether the human or the generator does "most of" the work? Is it measured in time? CPU cycles? Perhaps a fractalist (har) would spend three hours setting up one of these things while the computer spits the PNG image out in thirty seconds. If the argument is that there's a lot of complex math involved, I guess everyone who uses Photoshop filters is fucked.
2. I dislike this form of "art" personally but will defend to my death your justification to post it as "art". (Note how I said justification and not right.)
3. Spamming is a problem that isn't just limited to generated art. Any type of image which is posted in excess of, let's say, 50 per day (dumps excepted) suggests a lack of quality control. The number of posts alone isn't an indicator of a lack of quality control, but it's like obscenity - "you know it when you see it." Currently FA has no minimum effort criteria for drawn art.
4. I agree with Alkora that there is absolutely, positively nothing furry about fractals. It's a fallacy to use an example of something else which is not furry that is allowed as a reason that these should be allowed. It's not a fallacy to point out that leniency is being applied to one medium, but not another. Instrumental music, IMHO, is also something that has absolutely, positively nothing furry about it. Drawn pictures of humans also have nothing furry about them. Should those be banned? They add some character to the site, so I would only support banning anything not furry if there's a scarcity of resources. With the huge servers that were bought with the community's thousands of dollars in donations, I have my doubts that that is the case.
5.
dragoneer said:
True, but we have no way of taking action against people who just put up bad fractals. We're not here to judge art quality, so if we allow fractals, it doesn't matter what quality they are.
Instead you judge whether a medium as a whole is art. I would prefer that you judge art quality case by case. As I stated above, if someone is able to "spam" the site with fractals, they can be reasonably be judged as poor quality.
6. Don't any of you, kewlhotrod and Dragoneer both included, get confused or misrepresent the way FurAffinity works. It is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. Like it or not, Dragoneer has the power to judge content based on his personal preferences. It doesn't matter if the majority of the community agrees with a viewpoint or one viewpoint has a better argument than the other. If Dragoneer decided the site is being flooded with red fox art, does he have the power to institute a ban on red fox art? Absolutely. And as for the thousands of dollars donated to FA, they are not stock certificates and not represented as such, and your donations are meaningless with regard to the decision making process, so don't bother bringing that up.
 

Steel Froggy

Your Little Fox
If people are worried about them not showing up on the front page, why not just not have them show up?
If it's submitted under the fractal category, then they wont' show up on the front page.

*still neutral against them*
 

Alex Cross

Taste the Music
One: Hearing is a sense, just as seeing is, correct? One sense does not have higher priority over the other, so that doesn't make too much sense, (pardon the pun).

Pun has been pardoned.

Unfortunately, seeing how the front page is constructed, the sense of sight has a higher priority over everything else unless Dragoneer and the administration decide to, one day, let people stream music on the front page. Now I'm not saying that I prefer that. It's just that the way FA was constructed is based on that sensual preference.

Also, it wouldn't be the ONLY exception for the AUP. There's PLENTY already. This is just to add another one. Especially since they are revising the AUP, it's a good time to bring it up

True, but when do we cross the line in terms of exceptions? We have so many. At this rate, if we set up all these exceptions, then the AUP will ultimately have to be rewritten and delaying the inevitable would make people -- who have violated the current AUP -- even more upset.

Also, think about it. Anthro art will still GREATLY overpower fractal art. With a ratio of something along the lines of 150 something furry artists to each fractal artist, even if that fractal artist were to upload 50 images a day, it would still get totally drowned out.

That is also true, but I think that what you're aiming for will open up the floodgates for other art mediums to be accepted and then the ratio, that you're currently presenting, will compact even more from 150-1 to 100-1 and so on. I know it's a slippery slope argument, which is often fallacious, so I'm posing this as a concern more than a persuasive argument.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
6. Don't any of you, kewlhotrod and Dragoneer both included, get confused or misrepresent the way FurAffinity works. It is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. Like it or not, Dragoneer has the power to judge content based on his personal preferences.
This is not Dragoneer Affinity, I'm sorry. FA is mostly run as a democracy, and I carry the "veto" vote as needed. I rarely exercise said power. Decisions that are made are done so with the best interest of the site, not in the best interests of me. You can ask yak, you can ask Damaratus, you can ask previous admins. While I've made my fair share of mistakes, I've had my own opinions and ideas shot down more often than not. At worst I'd be accused of being a procrastinator -vs- being an imperialist.
It doesn't matter if the majority of the community agrees with a viewpoint or one viewpoint has a better argument than the other. If Dragoneer decided the site is being flooded with red fox art, does he have the power to institute a ban on red fox art? Absolutely.
I have the power, but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and try to find a way to piss off the entire community. I'd never do that, at least never intentionally.
And as for the thousands of dollars donated to FA, they are not stock certificates and not represented as such, and your donations are meaningless with regard to the decision making process, so don't bother bringing that up.
Since almost all donations are completely anonymous... there's few faces I can put to the donating name. There are some particular people who have donated extremely significant amounts, but they don't get preferential treatment, special status or whatnot. They do, however, get my fullest respect and I would gladly buy 'em a beer at a con and treat 'em like royalty. Because, frankly, they're god awesome.

But no, no donation has ever influenced FA policies. At all.
 
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timoran

Banned
Banned
I would also like to point out that I do not personally see a difference between fractals coming out of this program and Terragen. Having worked with Terragen, it's largely the same premise of providing inputs to influence the color, shape, and features of the output which is generated using math (again, the use of math to generate output would be a terrible criterion on which to judge art, since Photoshop filters are the same damn thing). And to me, the inexperienced viewer, in both cases those outputs will all tend to look similar to one another regardless of the amount of effort involved in the inputs. And I still think that for both, given effort and trial and error on the inputs, and quality control to the outputs, with some "message" or literary value attached to the medium, it could be considered art. Perhaps art for which the majority of the community (apparently not) or admins (apparently so) has a distaste, but art no less.

Thus, any decision made for one should apply equally to the other, IMHO. I'll also point out that both tools might be great as background generators for drawn art.

If any of you feel differently about this similarity, I'd like to know how you feel they are fundamentally different.
 

LonelyFox

Care to join me for a bit?
I love fractals and they are MUCH harder to make than people think, I know I have tried and it takes real talent to make a good fractal. some of them are my favorite pictures on FA, my favorite artist being kingrondo, and I look forward to seeing all the new fractals he comes up with. it is truly an art and is self created, not just some machine or computerized code making it for you. it really takes time and patience and skill to do fractals, and therefor they should be allowed
 

Alex Cross

Taste the Music
I love fractals and they are MUCH harder to make than people think, I know I have tried and it takes real talent to make a good fractal. some of them are my favorite pictures on FA, my favorite artist being kingrondo, and I look forward to seeing all the new fractals he comes up with. it is truly an art and is self created, not just some machine or computerized code making it for you. it really takes time and patience and skill to do fractals, and therefor they should be allowed

If FA allowed everything that took a lot of time, patience and skill to do, anthro media would be swept away in a flood of non-anthro submissions.
 

Undying Song

My Little Gentleman
If FA allowed everything that took a lot of time, patience and skill to do, anthro media would be swept away in a flood of non-anthro submissions.

No, no it would not. The name of the website is "Fur Affinity" - That welcomes a certain type of artwork.

I have to constantly remind artists that it is OK to upload human artwork. There are artists on FA who upload primarily human illustrations. They're good at it, it's what they do, and there are people on FA who prefer human artwork, believe it or not. But they're still on FA, because human artwork is allowed, and they enjoy finding artists who draw that way.

Anyway, yeah, the idea that "anthro" media would be swept away in general just isn't going to happen. Even if Fur Affinity's name was changed to "Art Affinity", the majority of works uploaded would still be "anthro".
 

Emil

Roll Fizzlebeef
Even if Fur Affinity's name was changed to "Art Affinity", the majority of works uploaded would still be "anthro".

Anthro art is hardly the majority on other sites, such as DA. What makes you think if you removed the only real thing that defines this as a furry site, that it would *stay* a furry site? Because the current membership is furries? Without something defining this site as primarily being for furries and their interests, more and more non furs would move in, and you would see anthro art as a small minority, same as it is on other sites.
 
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Alex Cross

Taste the Music
No, no it would not. The name of the website is "Fur Affinity" - That welcomes a certain type of artwork.

I have to constantly remind artists that it is OK to upload human artwork. There are artists on FA who upload primarily human illustrations. They're good at it, it's what they do, and there are people on FA who prefer human artwork, believe it or not. But they're still on FA, because human artwork is allowed, and they enjoy finding artists who draw that way.

Anyway, yeah, the idea that "anthro" media would be swept away in general just isn't going to happen. Even if Fur Affinity's name was changed to "Art Affinity", the majority of works uploaded would still be "anthro".

I never said it's not OK to upload human artwork, but I do believe that there needs to be some sort of limit of exceptions granted in the AUP in respect to those who have established an identity as furry artists.

I don't think there's any guarantee that anthro media wouldn't be swept away in general either.

Let me roll back the tape for a moment.

A few months ago, there was a discussion of whether FA should allow Terragen submissions. Again, the suggested art medium -- while it's a great medium -- was very specific and the conversation ultimately boiled down to whether or not FA should accept 3D renders.

The problem is that people are suggesting these mediums in a "pick-and-choose" manner, making any possible additions or revisions of the AUP to be confusing. "We won't allow certain renders but we'll accept fractals." Then people will be like, "Huh?"

What we need to do is go back to the bigger picture and ask if FA should allow certain types of artwork while preserving the whole FurAffinity ambiance. That's a tight-rope balancing act, I know, but I'm afraid that what we're doing right now will jeopardize the AUP and make it confusing.
 

Stratelier

Well-Known Member
As of no time have I seen any kind of "limitation" counter (in the software/code) for any artwork submitted
Not only is it nonexistent, but any kind of software-coded limit is all-or-nothing. Computers can't tell a fractal from a photograph from a pencil drawing from a Photoshop.

...So you group the people who take the time to properly compose, color, and generally think about their fractals with those who spend 5 minutes in Apophysis to make something shiny to show their friends.
Unfortunately, that sort of distinction must be performed by the submitter, it is not something that can be easily identified at a glance, especially when you don't have many people (much less staff or moderators) properly versed in evaluating them.
 
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